Need Advice on a Heritical parish

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RomanumImperium

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Hey there everyone. Id just like to Introduce myself to the Fourm. Im 23 years old living in Brisbane, Australia. Im a Catholic who for a time considered Leaving the Catholic Church for the Greek Orthodox Church, mainly due to the very poor state Catholic Liturgy. However I in the end decided not to Convert cause at heart im a papist:) …I love very much the Orthodox Church and Do believe she is valid in every way say for the fact she is not in union with Rome. But I have decided to stay with Peter…even if I dont get any peace from State of the Church today.

However I feel my first Battle in Catholism is about to begin…let me expalin. I recent moved to an area of Brisbane called "South Brisbane. The Catholic Church here is called St. Mary’s. I decided to attend this Beautiful looking Church (as its the only church i can get to) when i walked in though I was horrified by what I saw. The Churches Pews were against the walls on either side facing eachother, there was a long rectangual Tabble in the middle of the Nave (at that pointit didnt even cross my mind that this was the “Altar”. And the actual sacuntuary was being used by the choir…it was at this Point that one of the people came up to me and asked me if i was new to the parish…and I stupidly blurted out “um are you sure this is Catholic Church?”

the Guy replied :yes it is…let me exolain how our parish works…Firstly the priest wears no Vestments. secondly this table you see in the Nave is actualy our altar. and we all stabnd around and co-celebrate the Eucharish here."

Well by this stage I had alarm bells going off in my head. and I turned to him and said somehting to the affect of “um I dont think this is for me.” and turned around and was outa there like a shot.

I did howver grab one of the newsheets from the church on my way out and was even more horrified when I go to read inside it the actual Order of Mass

Qute from the Newsheet"
Liturgy of the Eucharist

Presider: What do you bring to Christ’s Table?
All: We bring Bread, mademade by man peoples work, from an unjust world where so,e have plently and most go hungry.

Presider: At this Table all are feed and on one is turned away.
All: thanks be to God

Presider: What do you bring to Christ’s Table?
All: We bring win, made by man peoples work, from an unjust world where some have leisure and most struggle to survive.

Presider: At this table all share the cup of pain and celebration and no one is denied.
All: Thanks be to God.

All: All these gifts shall be for us the body and blood of Christ. Our witenes against hunger, our cry against in justice, and our hope for a world God is fully know and each child is fed. Thnaks be to God.

Then is the traditional “Holy Holy” followed by:

Presider: you have woven an intimate tapestry and called it life and called it good.

It them has the traditional elevation of the host which it calles “elevation of the bread” and “elevation of the wine”

The Preist or PRESIDER as he likes to be called says
Presider: So we come to this table to renew our communion with the earth and our interwovenness with the broken ones of the world.

any how you guys get the idea…it was complete rubbish as far as im conncered. and complelty invalid and heritical…almost pushed me right back in the the Orthodox camp again.

I emailed the Bishop of Brisbane to inform him of my utter distain for this Liturgy…however … he ignored my email…

My question I need some help with is…where do I go from here? who do I take my complaint to? I belive its my right as Catholic to attend an ordinary Mass in my suburb…and as i dont have a car and am unemployed at the moment I cnat get to another Church. So im determined to Fight this battle and i ask all of you out there for your prayers and for some practical support if you have any to offer.
 
What has the bishop said to you …

If his response is not adequate, you need to go higher… write directly to Cardinal Arinze.

God Speed…

.
 
RomanumImperium said:
Hey there everyone. Id just like to Introduce myself to the Fourm. Im 23 years old living in Brisbane, Australia. Im a Catholic who for a time considered Leaving the Catholic Church for the Greek Orthodox Church, mainly due to the very poor state Catholic Liturgy. However I in the end decided not to Convert cause at heart im a papist:) …I love very much the Orthodox Church and Do believe she is valid in every way say for the fact she is not in union with Rome. But I have decided to stay with Peter…even if I dont get any peace from State of the Church today.

However I feel my first Battle in Catholism is about to begin…let me expalin. I recent moved to an area of Brisbane called "South Brisbane. The Catholic Church here is called St. Mary’s. I decided to attend this Beautiful looking Church (as its the only church i can get to) when i walked in though I was horrified by what I saw. The Churches Pews were against the walls on either side facing eachother, there was a long rectangual Tabble in the middle of the Nave (at that pointit didnt even cross my mind that this was the “Altar”. And the actual sacuntuary was being used by the choir…it was at this Point that one of the people came up to me and asked me if i was new to the parish…and I stupidly blurted out “um are you sure this is Catholic Church?”

the Guy replied :yes it is…let me exolain how our parish works…Firstly the priest wears no Vestments. secondly this table you see in the Nave is actualy our altar. and we all stabnd around and co-celebrate the Eucharish here."

Well by this stage I had alarm bells going off in my head. and I turned to him and said somehting to the affect of “um I dont think this is for me.” and turned around and was outa there like a shot.

I did howver grab one of the newsheets from the church on my way out and was even more horrified when I go to read inside it the actual Order of Mass

Qute from the Newsheet"
Liturgy of the Eucharist

Presider: What do you bring to Christ’s Table?
All: We bring Bread, mademade by man peoples work, from an unjust world where so,e have plently and most go hungry.
Click to expand...
Presider: At this Table all are feed and on one is turned away.
All: thanks be to God

Presider: What do you bring to Christ’s Table?
All: We bring win, made by man peoples work, from an unjust world where some have leisure and most struggle to survive.

Presider: At this table all share the cup of pain and celebration and no one is denied.
All: Thanks be to God.

All: All these gifts shall be for us the body and blood of Christ. Our witenes against hunger, our cry against in justice, and our hope for a world God is fully know and each child is fed. Thnaks be to God.

Then is the traditional “Holy Holy” followed by:

Presider: you have woven an intimate tapestry and called it life and called it good.

It them has the traditional elevation of the host which it calles “elevation of the bread” and “elevation of the wine”

The Preist or PRESIDER as he likes to be called says
Presider: So we come to this table to renew our communion with the earth and our interwovenness with the broken ones of the world.

any how you guys get the idea…it was complete rubbish as far as im conncered. and complelty invalid and heritical…almost pushed me right back in the the Orthodox camp again.

I emailed the Bishop of Brisbane to inform him of my utter distain for this Liturgy…however … he ignored my email…

My question I need some help with is…where do I go from here? who do I take my complaint to? I belive its my right as Catholic to attend an ordinary Mass in my suburb…and as i dont have a car and am unemployed at the moment I cnat get to another Church. So im determined to Fight this battle and i ask all of you out there for your prayers and for some practical support if you have any to offer.

It sounds (from your description) like the layout of the church is not really the main issue. It is a design frequently used in Seminaries and some Monasteries. However, if you have laity “concelebrating” then you have a problem. Couple with that the lack of vestments. I would check with the Bishop to make sure this church is even in communion with Rome before anything else. Just because they identify as Catholic does not mean that they are recognized as being Catholic.
 
Yes it is St. Mary in South Brisbane…very Beautiful Church (even has its High Altar intact) but the Liturgy is shocking…and yes it’s definatly Affilated with the Catholic Church as the Church is listed on the Brisbane Archdiocese website

As for the Bishop…well he doesnt even reply to my emails…and i know hes recieveing them cause when i writing to his office on a complely differnat topic (aka Mass times etc) i have goten a responce…he’s just choising to ignore me on this paticular topic.
 
and not its no Neo-Catechumenal…at least it doesnt say so their news bullitan…however it does advertsise studding “Enneageam Panels” “Dances of Universal peace” and “Pet Mass” for your Cats and Dogs:(

doesnt strike me as really Catholic…and Im surprised that the Bishop has allowed this to continue.
 
RomanumImperium said:
Yes it is St. Mary in South Brisbane…very Beautiful Church (even has its High Altar intact) but the Liturgy is shocking…and yes it’s definatly Affilated with the Catholic Church as the Church is listed on the Brisbane Archdiocese website

As for the Bishop…well he doesnt even reply to my emails…and i know hes recieveing them cause when i writing to his office on a complely differnat topic (aka Mass times etc) i have goten a responce…he’s just choising to ignore me on this paticular topic.
Click to expand...
Listen CAREFULLY.
  • Start over. Draft a query letter to the Pastor.
  • **Clean up your spelling and grammar. **
  • Do NOT call anybody a heretic.
  • Give the Pastor 2 weeks to respond. If the Pastor’s response is unsatisfactory or he does not respond at all, then refer the matter to the bishop again.
  • If the bishop fails to respond, then refer this to the Vatican Nuncio for Australia, including: 1) your initial letter or e-mail to the pastor, 2) the Pastor’s response, 3) your appeal to the bishop (cc: the Worship Office), copy of your correspondence to the Bishop and his response or a comment that he has not responded.
  • If the Nuncio’s response is bland, take it to Cardinal Arinze.
 
RomanumImperium said:
and not its no Neo-Catechumenal…at least it doesnt say so their news bullitan…however it does advertsise studding “Enneageam Panels” “Dances of Universal peace” and “Pet Mass” for your Cats and Dogs:(

doesnt strike me as really Catholic…and Im surprised that the Bishop has allowed this to continue.
Click to expand...
I am sure the Bishop gets a copy of the bulletin, but include it in your next correspondence with him.
 
Hi, I have plenty of family in Brisbane, I know that Catholic churches aren’t quite so thin on the ground there that it would be that difficult for you to get to another one. Having said that I’ve seen a couple that are dodgy - never been to St Mary’s though.

Find a friend who goes to another church, take a bus, whatever you need to do.

If you contact the Bishop again, perhaps write by snail (regular) mail or try telephone instead of email? It’s more likely to be taken seriously.
 
Ah yes, St Marys in South Brisbane. Boy did you stumble into the hornets nest.

St Mary’s has a long history of non compliance with Vatican norms and rules concerning just about everything. It has been censured on at least two occasions by the Arch Bioshop down under for such activities.

It came to international fame about two years ago when it was determined that hundreds of baptisms done there were defective in form, ie: not using the Trinitarian formula and insted using the phrase the Creator, the Liberator and the Sustainer. Apparently that had been going on for at least ten years when finally uncovered. The powers that be in Australia were of the general impression that all the affected baptisms would have to be performed again. I’m not sure if that was the case or not The Parish was also censured because the Pastor, rather than wearing liturgical clothing would wear Australian aboriginal dress or the clothes of some other Pacific island culture, in his words to encourage diversity and kinship with the dispossesed. There were also problems reported with changing of the wording of the Mass, at times completely ad libbing it, allowing the laity to con celebrate, give homilies.using invalid matter in the communion bread.

The parish kind of dropped off the radar after thatspurt of infamy Apparently they do have a rather strong neo catechumal influence these days though, along with just about every other form of new age esoteric fluff thats floating around…

You sure picked a winner going to that one:thumbsup:
 
palmas85 said:
Ah yes, St Marys in South Brisbane. Boy did you stumble into the hornets nest.

St Mary’s has a long history of non compliance with Vatican norms and rules concerning just about everything. It has been censured on at least two occasions by the Arch Bioshop down under for such activities.

It came to international fame about two years ago when it was determined that hundreds of baptisms done there were defective in form, ie: not using the Trinitarian formula and insted using the phrase the Creator, the Liberator and the Sustainer. Apparently that had been going on for at least ten years when finally uncovered. The powers that be in Australia were of the general impression that all the affected baptisms would have to be performed again. I’m not sure if that was the case or not The Parish was also censured because the Pastor, rather than wearing liturgical clothing would wear Australian aboriginal dress or the clothes of some other Pacific island culture, in his words to encourage diversity and kinship with the dispossesed. There were also problems reported with changing of the wording of the Mass, at times completely ad libbing it, allowing the laity to con celebrate, give homilies.using invalid matter in the communion bread.

The parish kind of dropped off the radar after thatspurt of infamy Apparently they do have a rather strong neo catechumal influence these days though, along with just about every other form of new age esoteric fluff thats floating around…

You sure picked a winner going to that one:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
Looks like we’ve found our Australian counterpart to St Joan of Arc. 😦

By the way palmas we have many archbishops down here - our Australian Catholic Church is not quite that small! 😛 You would’ve been referring to the local Archbishop of Brisbane of course :yup:

Makes me thank God for my local parishes, which, while not perfect, at least validly administer the sacraments and stick to the rubrics fairly closely as far as I can tell.
 
If you contact the Bishop again, perhaps write by snail (regular) mail or try telephone instead of email? It’s more likely to be taken seriously.
Click to expand...
I have found in the past that whenever I want to make sure my Bishop gets a letter I send him I sent it registered and signed receipt. Also I mark it Personnal on the outside. I have received a reply each time I have done that. With my previous Bishop I would never get a reply until I started sending them as I indicated. That way the Postal Service will be sure to send me back a signed receipt and nobody can say that the letter was never received. I have to pay a little extra but its worth it and I live only two blocks from the Chancery.
 
RomanumImperium said:
Hey there everyone. Id just like to Introduce myself to the Fourm. Im 23 years old living in Brisbane, Australia. Im a Catholic who for a time considered Leaving the Catholic Church for the Greek Orthodox Church, mainly due to the very poor state Catholic Liturgy. However I in the end decided not to Convert cause at heart im a papist:) …I love very much the Orthodox Church and Do believe she is valid in every way say for the fact she is not in union with Rome. But I have decided to stay with Peter…even if I dont get any peace from State of the Church today.

However I feel my first Battle in Catholism is about to begin…let me expalin. I recent moved to an area of Brisbane called "South Brisbane. The Catholic Church here is called St. Mary’s…I decided to attend this Beautiful looking Church (as its the only church i can get to) when i walked in though I was horrified by what I saw. The Churches Pews were against the walls on either side facing eachother, there was a long rectangual Tabble in the middle of the Nave (at that pointit didnt even cross my mind that this was the “Altar”. And the actual sacuntuary was being used by the choir…it was at this Point that one of the people came up to me and asked me if i was new to the parish…and I stupidly blurted out “um are you sure this is Catholic Church?”

the Guy replied :yes it is…let me exolain how our parish works…Firstly the priest wears no Vestments. secondly this table you see in the Nave is actualy our altar. and we all stabnd around and co-celebrate the Eucharish here."

Well by this stage I had alarm bells going off in my head. and I turned to him and said somehting to the affect of “um I dont think this is for me.” and turned around and was outa there like a shot.

I did howver grab one of the newsheets from the church on my way out and was even more horrified when I go to read inside it the actual Order of Mass

Qute from the Newsheet"
Liturgy of the Eucharist

Presider: What do you bring to Christ’s Table?
All: We bring Bread, mademade by man peoples work, from an unjust world where so,e have plently and most go hungry.
Click to expand...
Presider: At this Table all are feed and on one is turned away.
All: thanks be to God

Presider: What do you bring to Christ’s Table?
All: We bring win, made by man peoples work, from an unjust world where some have leisure and most struggle to survive.

Presider: At this table all share the cup of pain and celebration and no one is denied.
All: Thanks be to God.

All: All these gifts shall be for us the body and blood of Christ. Our witenes against hunger, our cry against in justice, and our hope for a world God is fully know and each child is fed. Thnaks be to God.

Then is the traditional “Holy Holy” followed by:

Presider: you have woven an intimate tapestry and called it life and called it good.

It them has the traditional elevation of the host which it calles “elevation of the bread” and “elevation of the wine”

The Preist or PRESIDER as he likes to be called says
Presider: So we come to this table to renew our communion with the earth and our interwovenness with the broken ones of the world.

any how you guys get the idea…it was complete rubbish as far as im conncered. and complelty invalid and heritical…almost pushed me right back in the the Orthodox camp again.

I emailed the Bishop of Brisbane to inform him of my utter distain for this Liturgy…however … he ignored my email…

My question I need some help with is…where do I go from here? who do I take my complaint to? I belive its my right as Catholic to attend an ordinary Mass in my suburb…and as i dont have a car and am unemployed at the moment I cnat get to another Church. So im determined to Fight this battle and i ask all of you out there for your prayers and for some practical support if you have any to offer.
Thats horrifying, may God help you!
 
LilyM said:
Looks like we’ve found our Australian counterpart to St Joan of Arc. 😦

By the way palmas we have many archbishops down here - our Australian Catholic Church is not quite that small! 😛 You would’ve been referring to the local Archbishop of Brisbane of course :yup:

Makes me thank God for my local parishes, which, while not perfect, at least validly administer the sacraments and stick to the rubrics fairly closely as far as I can tell.
Click to expand...
Of course. 🙂 If I’m not mistaken, the case involving St Marys made quite a stir in the upper levels of the Church down under.
 
MMM. I had no idea that this Church had a History of Non-compliance with Liturgical norms…but then again ive only been living in Brisbane for a year.

As for catching a bus or train etc yeah its a great Idea…however ive not long come outa a bad relatioship in which I lost alot of money …i literaly dont have 2 coins to rub together atm…which is why i moved to to this paticular surburb cause it has all the faciliaties I need i.e shopping centers. doctors,post office etc including a Orthodox Church about 5 mins walking distance and the Catholic Church about 10 mins walk. Looks like ive got three options…I can either adandon the practise of my faith again or I could resume worshiping with the Orthodox, or i could just “fight the Good fight”
though now that i know this has been happening for like 10 years im not very optimistic about my chances…

Thank you all for your responces and please keeping praying for the Church of St Mary’s, South Brisbane.
 
Hello RomanumImperium!

Sounds like you are having some problems with the liberalization of the Liturgy. Not to worry, it is completely against the Church’s teachings ;).

I too am shocked at the state of the Liturgy in many western countries (not to say that Australia is a western country, you just have a western society). It is pathetic and openly against the norms set by the Holy See.

But I discovered something in the last year. The Church encourages and supports the practice of the Traditional Roman Rite- that is the old Latin Mass from before 1970 commonly called the Tridentine Mass. You see, the Second Vatican Council wisely declared that Liturgical Reforms were needed- just as the Liturgy of the Roman Rite has been developing and undergoing reform since the time of the Apostles. But after the Council, instead of reforming the Liturgy, a whole new Liturgy was created- our current Pauline Mass, also known as the Novus Ordo Missae. Many priests, especialy older priests (and some who have since become Saints, like Padre Pio and St. Josemaria Escriva), were allowed to continue to practice the Tridentine Mass because they found themselves unable to celebrate the Pauline Mass. Pope John Paul II granted Bishops the right to allow their priests to celebrate the Tridentine with special permission (the Indult Masses) and then issued a document called Ecclesia Dei which exhorted Bishops to encourage “wide and generous application” of the Tridentine Mass. Today many Dioceses have regular Tridentine Masses and there are many priests attached to the religious orders and congregations who practice the Tridentine with full support of the Holy See. I hope to be a traditional priest someday 🙂

If you want, I can pm you some information on the Traditional Roman Rite and maybe I can find some Tridentine Masses in your area. Good luck with your liberal parish 👍
 
To Caesar .
Thank you very much for your responce…yes I am aware of the Classical Roman Mass (though have yet to attend one) my personnal belief is that the Tridentine Mass is of course the one true Mass of the Catholic Religion…however the Vatican saw fit to create a new one (God only Know what the Cardinals had been smoking that day)
and as someone who has grown up with the English translation of the new Mass it would be very hard for me to adapt to Latin (although i wouldnt dismiss doing this outright)
My only wish is that the Church had translated the Tridentine Mass into english instead of creating an new one outright. Though i have not been to one personaly i have seen pictures of the Tridentine Mass being celebrated on the internet…it looks stunning… the western counterpart to the the Eastern Divine Liturgy that i have become accutom to.

the closest thing ive seen to a Tridentine Mass is a “mass” Celebrated in “All Saints” anglo-Catholic Church here in brisbane…and i must say it puts the Catholic Church to shame. It even had the blessing with Holy water before “High Mass”

O and God Bless your vocation to the Priesthood…the Church needs more Traditional priests…i’ll offer up these michaelmas ember days for you and for others seeking Vocation into the Traditional orders of the Church.
 
RomanumImperium said:
Qute from the Newsheet"
Liturgy of the Eucharist

Presider: What do you bring to Christ’s Table?
All: We bring Bread, mademade by man peoples work, from an unjust world where so,e have plently and most go hungry.
Click to expand...
Presider: At this Table all are feed and on one is turned away.
All: thanks be to God

Presider: What do you bring to Christ’s Table?
All: We bring win, made by man peoples work, from an unjust world where some have leisure and most struggle to survive.

Presider: At this table all share the cup of pain and celebration and no one is denied.
All: Thanks be to God.

All: All these gifts shall be for us the body and blood of Christ. Our witenes against hunger, our cry against in justice, and our hope for a world God is fully know and each child is fed. Thnaks be to God.

Then is the traditional “Holy Holy” followed by:

Presider: you have woven an intimate tapestry and called it life and called it good.

It them has the traditional elevation of the host which it calles “elevation of the bread” and “elevation of the wine”

The Preist or PRESIDER as he likes to be called says
Presider: So we come to this table to renew our communion with the earth and our interwovenness with the broken ones of the world.

Kyrie Eleison
Christe Eleison
Kyrie Eleison

Now this pales in comparison in what happens in my own diocese.
 
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