Need advice on how to respond to priest's request about singing in Latin

[Nessie86]

Short story: our priest has asked us (my husband and I who do the music) not to sing in Latin! Long story below:

My husband and I do the music liturgy for one of the masses at our very small parish. I cantor, he plays piano. I am a convert, having joined the church Easter 2009. I first started singing in the Catholic church in the parish of my hometown, which had a very conservative, wonderful priest and congregation. Mass there was so reverent! The music director there became a close friend, and he did a wonderful job. For lent and advent, we would sing latin mass parts, and incorporated Latin throughout the year.

My husband and I have been doing the music at our parish for a little less than a year now, and it’s been a struggle the whole time. At the parish in my hometown, everyone loved me and supported me, and miss me now that I’ve moved. Here, I have never felt welcomed, and I still don’t feel part of the parish. In addition, we have had problems with the priest. Mind you, he’s a young priest, and seems to have a knack for stepping on people’s toes and not handling things well. Many families have left the parish because of him, and my husband’s family would go too if we weren’t doing the music. We’ve had several incidents where our priest has frustrated us. There are two other gentlemen who do the music at other masses, and they each have their own style; one is folksy, with a guitar, and the other is more contemporary in his style and choice of music. My husband and I are the most traditional in our styles and tastes, as we’re both classically trained musicians, and we fully appreciate the musical traditions of the church. We feel that it’s a good thing all the musicians at this parish are so different; if gives the parishoners a choice of what “style” they would like to experience. So, at our mass, we try to bring out some of the rich, wonderful music of our church, sometimes exposing them to music they may not be familiar with. This has caused trouble; apparently people complain straight to the priest if we do ONE “new” song, instead of talking to us. And in response, the preist simply tells us not to do whatever was complained about. No requests, no discussion, no support. No opportunity for us to explain our choices. We have had to really cut back, and do the same songs over and over again. We tried doing the latin mass parts, with the priest’s permission, last year, and apparently no one in that church had ever heard them. Could they have learned them after a couple weeks? Probabaly. But once again, people complained, and the priest told us we couldn’t do that again. Fine, we said. So most of the time, we do the songs they know, and we stick to English. But there are just some occasions which call for Latin, so every once in a while, we will do a song, or even just a verse, in Latin. This past Easter season, we chose a beautiful “Gloria” from a mass we often did at my hometown parish, in which just the refain is in Latin; very simple latin that mose people know, from Christmas carols if nothing else. We did it all through the Easter season, the parish learned it, and we didn’t get any complaints. Well, the last Sunday of Easter, our deacon was at mass (he usually isn’t there, as we have the 7:30 mass and it’s too early for him). We sang the Gloria like we had been doing all Easter. A few days later, we got an email from our priest, asking us not to sing Latin songs any more. He said the deacon complained, and said the congregation is not able to participate when we sing in Latin. Now, sometimes, this is true, they don’t know the song or the Latin (though most don’t even TRY, they just stare blankly). But in this case, the only “song” we did in Latin that week was the refrain of the Gloria, and EVERYONE was singing it, as they had all learned it. I suspect that the deacon complained because HE didn’t know the refrain, as he usually is not at our mass, and I suspect that for some reason, he just doesn’t like Latin in the first place.

Now, this latest email from the priest bothers me for several reasons. First, I honestly don’t think that any Catholic priest has the right to say that Latin is not allowed. I just can’t imagine that’s ok; I’m wondering if anyone knows of any documents I can cite to him to point this out, in a nice way? Second, I really don’t think it’s appropriate to let a complaint like this become the rule. The deacon does not have the authority here. I just don’t understand it. Third, once again, he doesn’t even discuss it with us. It’s a short email with a command. We are trying really hard to give this parish a rich music liturgy, and I feel like our preist does not trust or support us, and keeps shutting the door in our face. Course, this is the same priest who prides himself on 45 minute masses…

I just don’t feel like we can just sit and take this latest “request”. I think that eliminating Latin entirely is just wrong. Am I right? Or am I in the wrong here? I want to write our priest a letter expressing our intent in our music choices, and explaining why we feel Latin is so important to include occasionally. We’re honestly about done with this whole situation… if we didn’t need the small amount of money we get, we would probably go to another church. I don’t believe in church shopping, and I think that folks should stick with their own parish… but there has just been such a long line of problems in every possible area at this parish, that we’re fed up.

Any advice, especially official documents, etc, on the topic would be appreciated!

 

[choy]

i believe that the parish priest has a say what can and cannot be sung in his parish.

 

[Nessie86]

Of course he does, especially if it’s concerning propriety, or content, reverence, etc. For example, if a priest thinks that a particular song is secular, or irreverent, or not appropriate in some way. But does this really extend to the universal, historical language of the Church? Also, “has a say” implies discussion with the others involved.

 

[Redratfish]

Take it up with your bishop. If you need to stop singing at that Church. If you are a volunteer, you are not bound to perform at your Church. I know that I stopped altar serving, simply because the priests had too many rules. When I joined, it was much easier. However, as in your case, people kept complaining. It was not worth my time to continue.

If you want anything truly done, you have to take it up with the Bishop. Arguing with the priest will not change his mind.

 

[OraLabora]

Perhaps you could quote him the following from Sacrosanctum Concilium:

1. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

And also:

1. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

Ask him which part of the above he doesn’t understand, and then offer to help teach the parishioners to do the the kyriale in Greek/Latin in one of the simpler versions, such as Gloria VIII, Kyrie XVI and Sanctus/Agnus XVIII.

 

[Dempsey1919]

I find it ridiculous that a priest of the Latin rite would complain about the use of Latin during the Mass. Doesn’t he know that the official language of the Roman Catholic Church is Latin? It is absolutely ludicrous that he would ban Latin from the hymns.

The Church has a great treasury of beautiful Latin hymns. It is unfortunate that these hymns are often cast aside because people claim that they prevent the congregation from participating. If you ask me, this is complete and utter nonsense. Our ancestors did not know Latin, but they had no trouble learning the basics. The Church regularly sang Latin hymns for over 1000 years. If it was good enough for them, why is it not good enough for us?

You should schedule an appointment to see your priest because you have legitimate concerns. Why should an intolerant minority force you to abandon the beautiful Latin hymns? You are not wrong for trying to introduce classical hymns. I could understand the complaints if you were intent on using only Latin hymns. However, I can’t see any problem with implementing some Latin into the hymns.

The people complaining to the priest are intolerant. They need to realise that there are a lot of Catholics who love and cherish Latin hymns. The deacon at your Church has no authority to enforce his personal preferences on the rest of the congregation. I am sure there are many people at your Church who are perfectly happy with your selection of hymns. Do not let the intolerance of a minority ruin it for the majority.

Stand up for yourself and do not be discouraged. Do not give up without a fight. Your priest and the deacon must understand that there are Catholics who love and cherish the traditional hymns of the Roman rite. By banning Latin, your priest is abandoning the heritage of the Roman rite.

 

[MarkThompson]

The very short answer is that your parish pastor has absolute control over the choice of music, within the limits prescribed by authoritative documents. By that I mean, he could be overruled by the bishop if he chose a song that contained heresy, or a part of the Ordinary that was faithless to to prescribed words; but bishops do no overrule priests on matters of musical taste. The Church documents that promote Latin consist of recommendations, exhortations, and a similar variety of non-binding statements. If a priest does not want Latin, there will definitely be no Latin. If he insists a gospel choir or a mariachi band, there will be a gospel choir or a mariachi band – unless everyone quits first.

The longer answer to your question has been hashed out by better and more experienced writers than me. If you haven’t read Jeffrey Tucker’s (president of the Church Music Association of America) book Sing Like a Catholic, it’s a series of shortish essays many of which touch on the topics you’ve discussed, and includes specific action plans for people in situations like yours. The book’s freely available for download at scribd.com/doc/12699133/Sing-Like-a-Catholic (click the “download” button) and an easy read. It should also point you to other resources and Church documents that can help you.

 

[OraLabora]

I sing in a small schola… a dozen or so men… and we do Gregorian chant exclusively. We rotate around parishes around our home base; one parish per month. If you have musical talent, you could perhaps try to put together a small group and fly from parish to parish on a frequency you can handle.

Then you become a “special treat” and not a pain in the butt. People look forward to hearing you.

It may not work in your area… you’d have to try. In our area, which has a long Catholic history going back 500 years, there are plenty of older folk who pine for the days of Gregorian chant, love it when we sing, and even know the Ordinary well enough to sing along with us, there are younger parishioners who delight in hearing it for the first time, and a bunch of Vatican II curmudgeons in the middle who can’t stand it. But the point is that it generates delight, and a specific parish only hears us maybe once ever 1-2 years, so it’s not an excessive imposition on them and the curmudgeons tolerate it, but it does bring chant to a wider audience, and it does create chant converts.

We even have a couple of “groupies” who make a point of always attending the Mass we sing at, regardless of the parish. It’s a bit spooky to find the same folks following us around each month, but clearly we hit a nerve! One of them is a young father in his late 30s who also happens to be a provincial police officer. He and his wife never miss the Masses we sing at!

 

[Dempsey1919]

and a bunch of Vatican II curmudgeons in the middle who can’t stand it.

Or rather, “a bunch of SPIRIT OF Vatican II cumudgeons in the middle who can’t stand it.”

There is nothing wrong with having some diversity within the Mass in order to meet the spiritual needs of all parishioners. But what really irritates me is when people are intolerant; they try to force their preferences on everybody else! There are many Catholics who love traditional Church music. The “cumudgeons” need to learn how to compromise and respect the preferences of others.

 

[Phemie]

i believe that the parish priest has a say what can and cannot be sung in his parish.

Fair enough, but when a priest forbids something that the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy says is the minimum that people should know in Latin, you have to wonder where his head is.

Before doing anything else I would make an appointment to speak with the priest. I’d bring the CSL with me and point out that Rome wants us to be able to sing all the responses in Latin. I wouldn’t martyr myself over it but I would definitely express my point of view.

Once you’ve done that you have to decide if you can stay there and do only the stuff they won’t complain about or you move to a different parish that will appreciate your talents.

 

[WatchingMedia]

Try looking at it this way -

1. Read the Catechism page 309, and 310. This will not give you ammunition but will assist in understanding.
2. Pay particular attention to paragraph 1206 regarding “Unity”.
3. Pay particular attention to pargraph 1203, regarding preserving the Latin rite.
4. Read this: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
5. intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P1T.HTM This is a link to Canon law.

Never visit your Priest or Bishop about a “potentially controversial” matter until you have done your homework.
Your Pastor is the boss of your Parish, and was appointed Pastor by your Diocese Bishop (unless your Bishop is newer).
When there is a real conflict that can not be resolved between your Pastor and yourself, and/or when the Priest is doing something that is not in accord with Church teachings - that can be proven (not a he said, she said) then visit your Bishop with the proof.

 

[benedictgal]

Try looking at it this way -

1. Read the Catechism page 309, and 310. This will not give you ammunition but will assist in understanding.
2. Pay particular attention to paragraph 1206 regarding “Unity”.
3. Pay particular attention to pargraph 1203, regarding preserving the Latin rite.
4. Read this: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
5. intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/_P1T.HTM This is a link to Canon law.

Never visit your Priest or Bishop about a “potentially controversial” matter until you have done your homework.
Your Pastor is the boss of your Parish, and was appointed Pastor by your Diocese Bishop (unless your Bishop is newer).
When there is a real conflict that can not be resolved between your Pastor and yourself, and/or when the Priest is doing something that is not in accord with Church teachings - that can be proven (not a he said, she said) then visit your Bishop with the proof.

The Catechism, however, is a teaching document and not a regulatory one. It contains the why’s about our faith but, it is not meant to legislate. In this case, the authoritative documents stemming from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, including Sacrosanctum Concilium, are the ones that apply here.

 

[ProVobis]

If it helps, here’s what Cardinal Arinze said on the matter in St. Louis in 2006:

…It is not true that the lay faithful do not want to sing the Gregorian Chant. What they are asking for are priests and monks and nuns who will share this treasure with them.

The CDs produced by the Benedictine monks of Silos, their motherhouse at Solesmes, and numerous other communities sell among young people. Monasteries are visited by people who want to sing Lauds and especially Vespers.

In an ordination ceremony of 11 priests which I celebrated in Nigeria last July, about 150 priests sang the First Eucharistic Prayer in Latin. It was beautiful. The people, although no Latin scholars, loved it. It should be just normal that parish churches where there are four or five Masses on Sunday should have one of these Masses sung in Latin.

1. Did Vatican II discourage Latin?

Some people think, or have the perception, that the Second Vatican Council discouraged the use of Latin in the liturgy. This is not the case.

Just before he opened the Council, Bl. Pope John XXIII in 1962 issued an Apostolic Constitution to insist on the use of Latin in the Church. The Second Vatican Council, although it admitted some introduction of the vernacular, insisted on the place of Latin: “Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites” (SC, n. 36).

The Council also required that seminarians “should acquire a command of Latin which will enable them to understand and use the source material of so many sciences and the documents of the Church as well” (Optatam Totius, n. 13)…

More on

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20061111_gateway-conference_en.html

 

[curlycool89]

Or rather, “a bunch of SPIRIT OF Vatican II cumudgeons in the middle who can’t stand it.”

There is nothing wrong with having some diversity within the Mass in order to meet the spiritual needs of all parishioners. But what really irritates me is when people are intolerant; they try to force their preferences on everybody else! There are many Catholics who love traditional Church music. The “cumudgeons” need to learn how to compromise and respect the preferences of others.

The above statement is null and void if the the music type being forced is either “Latin” or “traditional”.

 

[Timothysis]

Actually, it is not your place to decide how mass is celebrated. If father asks you to sing in latin, great; if he asks you not to, then that’s the way it is. Going into a meeting with a satchel full of papers trying to prove your point will only create more tension and even possible hostility.

Put yourself in his place; he has a parish to administer in addition to his priestly duties.

 

[Musician]

If this was my situation, I would sincerely try to do as the priest requests. It sounds as though the congregation is wanting just plain Jane vanilla songs. I would personally honor that request, but it is a bit sad that there is no willingness to learn anything new. And I think it is very sad that the priest is not willing to have people learn any Latin.
You need to look for a new position, I would think. This sounds very unfulfilling.

 

[OraLabora]

The above statement is null and void if the the music type being forced is either “Latin” or “traditional”.

We’re not asking that Latin or Gregorian chant be used exclusively, we’re asking that it be used occasionally.

The ones who are against it though, seem to want to deny it to those who would like to hear it from time to time, while at the same time foisting their bland and sometimes outright bad music on others.

It would seem to me that there should be room to please everyone, if everyone was willing to compromise a little. Not everyone is as fortunate as I am, as I am able to go to Mass every Sunday at an abbey that does use Latin and Gregorian chant at Mass (and at Lauds and Vespers). Those who do not have that option should at least be able to hear it occasionally in their parishes. And if a majority in a parish wishes it and the talent is available, they could also consider making it the main form of music for Mass or offering at least one weekly Mass in Gregorian chant. After all the Holy Father, in his Motu Proprio, allows the Extraordinary Form Mass anywhere where a stable and sufficient number desire it.

I think it should be implicit that, where a stable and sufficient number desire it, some Gregorian chant and Latin should also be made available for the OF Mass.

 

[curlycool89]

We’re not asking that Latin or Gregorian chant be used exclusively, we’re asking that it be used occasionally.

I have nothing against that. I have nothing against people asking for it. I was justing pointing out the irony of the comment. Everyone always seems to get up in arms when “non-traditional” music is “forced” on people, but the comments here seem to indicate that it’s AOK if more “traditional” music is forced on people. All I’m looking for is some consistency.

What if a large majority of the congregation prefers the more recent music? Everyone here seems to agree that it’s not ok if a few people are forcing something, so my question is does that still apply if that minority is demanding traditional stuff? The OP seems to indicate that they were the one who chose the traditional music, and that it wasn’t at the request of anyone.

 

[benedictgal]

I have nothing against that. I have nothing against people asking for it. I was justing pointing out the irony of the comment. Everyone always seems to get up in arms when “non-traditional” music is “forced” on people, but the comments here seem to indicate that it’s AOK if more “traditional” music is forced on people. All I’m looking for is some consistency.

What if a large majority of the congregation prefers the more recent music? Everyone here seems to agree that it’s not ok if a few people are forcing something, so my question is does that still apply if that minority is demanding traditional stuff? The OP seems to indicate that they were the one who chose the traditional music, and that it wasn’t at the request of anyone.

Why should we be up in arms if genuine, sacral music, hymnody that has been part of the Chruch’s vast treasury, is used? The contemporary stuff pales in comparison to the rich beauty of geniune sacred music. It is lamentable that some circles would feel that real sacred music is being forced upon them when many of us are simply trying to restore the dignity, majesty and solemnity that is sorely lacking in our liturgies today.

 

[ProVobis]

I have nothing against that. I have nothing against people asking for it. I was justing pointing out the irony of the comment. Everyone always seems to get up in arms when “non-traditional” music is “forced” on people, but the comments here seem to indicate that it’s AOK if more “traditional” music is forced on people. All I’m looking for is some consistency.

Since when has the Church become a democracy? Many are simply trying to comply with Vatican II directives. Not to mention the wishes of all the Popes we’ve had since then. Every Catholic has the right to hear the Mass and/or the music in the official language of his own Church, I would think. That’s consistency enough.

As far as listening to Latin, people seem to accept the singing of Charlotte Church or Enya and others in Latin. Why should hearing it in Church bother them?