Need Advice - Should We Change Parishes?

[Brendan]

Our Pastor has given us some explanation on the program cancellations. He thinks those programs concentrate too much on the emotions. He says that faith is a decision, not a feeling.

He is 100% correct here. Faith is a rational decision directed by Grace. It is not an emotive response.

He says that people are changed one at a time, not in groups.

Faith is an individual response. A more correct phrasing is that we are changed as indiviuals, which is different from ‘one at a time’ which has a temporal connotation.

 

[Miriam1947]

There are two Catholic churches near me. When I started my “journey home”, I could have gone to either one. Geographically they are the same distance apart.

Lucky me, I went to the traditional church. If I had gone to the other, it would have been all the praise music and would have felt just like the Protestant churches that I have been to before. I was looking for a church that was about God, not the preacher or music.

My parish also celebrates the Latin Mass each Sunday.

This Easter I will be joined in the Catholic Church and I am going to be baptized. What a thrill, at 61 to finally be baptized.

 

[kage_ar]

About the youth - those kids will reflect back what the core team exhibits. The core team is distressed and disappointed by the end of the LifeTeen Program, the kids will pick up on that.

Are you still meeting as a youth group? Put together your OWN program.

Teens do not need a special Mass and those LifeTeen skits, you can have a great youth ministry with a Bible a Catechism and some pizza. We have been doing scriptural apologetics for almost a year with the teens.

They pick the topics, and we tackle them.

These kids now know how to actually FIND a passage in the Bible (nearly unheard of for Catholic teens), and WHY we believe what we believe. They can defend the faith - I have teens who can actually answer “why do Catholics worship Mary” or “why confess to a Priest?”. I have teens who can defend pro-life from scripture. Teens who understand Tradition, who can not only pray the Rosary but know theological concepts of angels. Teens who will grab a notebook and take notes because they want to learn what is being taught.

Actually, they do not even come for the pizza anymore, the come to swim in deep water!

 

[benedictgal]

Originally Posted by voice_of_truth Finally, the fact that our shepherd is scattering the flock concerns me GREATLY! See Ezek 34:1-10. I personally think there may be diabolical power at work here. Throw in just enough good to mask the bad maybe? This is the crux of my discernment. As a father, I am responsible for the spiritual safety of my family.

I think that this last statement perhaps bears some serious reflection. You are leveling a serious charge and seem to be falling victim to the false claims made by the folks at our cathedral when the pastor made changes. They accused him of not having the Holy Spirit, which is something very wrong. Did you ever consider that part of this might be coming from the other direction?

Perhaps you are hurt because, with all due respect, some of your pet projects are being discontinued, projects that may not necessarily be for the good of the parish.

Remember when Jesus took a chord and threw out the money changes? These guys had set up shop in the court of the Gentiles, the only place where they could pray, so that the vendors and money changers could conduct business. People thought Jesus had something dubious within him for doing that. But, zeal for His Fathe’rs house consumed Jesus. Our Lord was greatly concerned about the fact that His Father was not given proper worship. I dare say that in many of our churches, some serious cleansing needs to take place. Remember the words that the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger wrote for the 9th Station:

What can the third fall of Jesus under the Cross say to us? We have considered the fall of man in general, and the falling of many Christians away from Christ and into a godless secularism. Should we not also think of how much Christ suffers in his own Church? ***How often is the holy sacrament of his Presence abused, how often must he enter empty and evil hearts! How often do we celebrate only ourselves, without even realizing that he is there! ***How often is his Word twisted and misused! What little faith is present behind so many theories, so many empty words! How much filth there is in the Church, and even among those who, in the priesthood, ought to belong entirely to him! How much pride, how much self-complacency! What little respect we pay to the Sacrament of Reconciliation, where he waits for us, ready to raise us up whenever we fall! All this is present in his Passion. His betrayal by his disciples, their unworthy reception of his Body and Blood, is certainly the greatest suffering endured by the Redeemer; it pierces his heart. We can only call to him from the depths of our hearts: Kyrie eleison * Lord, save us (cf. Mt 8: 25).

When we make the movements, whether they be LifeTeen, Cursillo, the Charismatics, the NeoCathechumenals and CRHP more important the Church, who is the Body of Christ, and more important than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, there is something wrong. Our vision is skewed. That’s when confusion sets in and distorts everything.

As a father, yes, you do have a responsibility. However, as a son of the Church, which you are, first and foremost, you have a responsibility to listen to what she has to say in the person of the Holy Father, who is Christ’s Vicar on Earth.

Perhaps you should read Pope Benedict’s new book, New Outpourings of the Spirit. This should help put these ecclesial movements within the Church into prespective for you. You might also want to get hold of his books on the liturgy, as well.

To say that the Mass is dull and boring is for these young people to completely miss the point. In the Mass, the veil between heaven and earth is lifted and we transcend time and space to witness the eternal act of the sacrifice at Calvary. We are just as much witnesses to Jesus’ passion and death as the Blessed Mother and Sts. John and Mary Magdelene were. Are these youngsters taught that? I suspect not, else they wouldn’t have an unfortunate and superficial understanding of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Just pray that you are not overwhelmingly influenced by the alleged Spirit of Vatican II than the real Holy Spirit.

 

[voice_of_truth]

Thanks again for those additional responses to my few clarifications.

You all have brought up some of the very reasons I’ve thought about for NOT leaving. I actually do favor the more conservative route for liturgy and catechizing. However, it doesn’t seem to reach the youth (and stick with them) as effectively as what I’ve seen with LifeTeen. I know a church near us that has a huge LifeTeen program that has sent about a dozen of them to seminary for the priesthood in the last several years. To me that is real evidence of a very successful catechetical program for the youth.

Now, a lot of our youth are not leaving the Catholic Church. They are just going to another parish (like the one I mentioned above) that has a more vibrant youth program. They are still receiving Jesus in the Eucharist. They are still participating in the Mass that they love. Teens just have more energy. They often require a different approach. My philosophy has been to allow a little leeway for the youth because they are not where we adults are in terms of maturity level and areas of interest. If we don’t reach them where they are, we may not reach them at all. Or worse, we may lose our opportunity to reach them in time to help guide them away from the some of those REAL dangers that face them (drugs, gangs, fornication, etc…) that could literally ruin their lives.

If they don’t show up to Mass and our catechetical programs, how can we reach them?

Some of the youth are going somewhere else that feeds them. Great for them! But how many have left the Catholic Church all together? How many have left Christianity? How many lives are being impacted for the negative?

That is one BIG problem I have with the changes!

In a large parish like ours, you should be able to accommodate the varying degrees of style. Out of the 7 Masses available each weekend, can’t just one of them be focused on the youth? Why do they all have to be cookie cutter style? Should we make them all “dull” and “boring” (as our youth term it) just to get the youth used to that? It does not appear to be working! Of course I am speaking just a little bit tongue in check here.

Furthermore, it’s not just the youth who are leaving our parish. As a result of the CRHP program cancellation and a host of other program changes (staff positions eliminated, music, some outreach programs) many adults have decided to leave and change parishes as well. Many have been at our parish for over 30 years and are very faithful Catholics. My wife and I have been there for about 20 years. Some have told me they cannot participate in the Mass where a man of the cloth causes them an occasion to sin or at least prevents them from enjoying the Mass. Personal problem? Maybe. But that opinion is not all that uncommon now at our parish.

FYI - I have heard that our new Pastor ran off a significant portion of a previous parish of his. Some parishioners from that parish spoke to me at one of our recent Diocesan youth events and voiced sympathy for our situation. So there is at least the hint of some problem here.

More … Some of our KOC are leaving. Some of our parish staff are looking for other jobs. There’s probably a lot more that I don’t even know about right now.

Who’s staying? Well, our Pastor does have a certain segment of the parish in agreement with him. There are also a lot of parishioners who will never leave no matter what. There are also many who don’t care about the programs he’s cut. There are also those in our parish just like so many other parishes that just go to Mass and then go home. Those people probably don’t even know about any of this.

But for those of us who do have families and friends that want and need to benefit from the types of programs that were cut, we are sort of left out in the desert. What do we do???

God Bless!

 

[kage_ar]

I too am a youth group volunteer. Yesterday I had a terrible day at work, was kept late, and the LAST thing I wanted to do was drive an hour and 20 minutes for youth group. All the other volunteers are there, I am not presenting tonight, even DH was there - I just wanted to go home and crash.

It hit me, I need to show those kids that they are important to me, that even if I am tired, they CAN count on me to be there. I was late, but, I was there.

You sound like you are a leader and example to those around, and in particular the teens. I’d be cautious to set the example of leaving for another Parish.

Priests do come and go.

Show those teens you care enough to stay.

 

[Scottgun]

Short answer: Unless there is flagrant liturgical abuse or teaching or acts contrary to Church teachings, you have not a leg to stand on for leaving.

 

[benedictgal]

First of all, you need to step back. The desert scenario is rather over-dramatic. Remember, you are first and foremost a member of the Church. The movements are extra-curricular, if you will, and are not more important than the Church.

Now, have you thought of meeting your pastor half-way? One possible thing you could do is to perhaps organize some sort of Lectio Divina group to study and pray the Sunday readings. Maybe ask your pastor if he wouldn’t mind attending the kick-off meeting and then taking it from there.

If you still want to participate in an ecclesial movement, please know that that it is not necessary to have it tied down to your parish. Yes, a parish will host the movement, but, the members come from other Catholic communities. The Cursillo Movement is a prime example. In my city, there are Cursillistas galore. We come from every part of town and from every parish in the diocese. We meet once a week within the Cursillo community, but, we are also committed to our individual parishes. There is also one for the younger set.

Another good way of establishing community is to get involved in your parish’s fundraising activities. Do you have a parish fair? If not, maybe you can start one. Getting families together to help man the booths, sell tickets and cook the barbecue is one good way to get to know everyone.

Your desert argument really doesn’t hold well, especially when someone who actually lives in one reads it. But, by working with your pastor, you might be surprised that there is an oasis out there that neither of you though existed.

 

[agapewolf]

The CRHP process is derived from the Cursillo movement. Cursillo has many branches of legacy that has taken root for different audiences…

ANY type of these processes can, if not guided well, become too emotional…but when done correctly, these process retreats stand firm in how they evangelize.

Emotions are NOT the enemy. God gave us emotions…when we give them back to Him, itis for His glory.

No, faith should not be based on emotions, but emotions may be a window to jump start faith.

 

[benedictgal]

The CRHP process is derived from the Cursillo movement. Cursillo has many branches of legacy that has taken root for different audiences…

ANY type of these processes can, if not guided well, become too emotional…but when done correctly, these process retreats stand firm in how they evangelize.

Emotions are NOT the enemy. God gave us emotions…when we give them back to Him, itis for His glory.

No, faith should not be based on emotions, but emotions may be a window to jump start faith.

Oddly enough, in my city, which is home to one of the larges Cursillo centers in the country, CRHP was never plugged as being an off-shoot of the Cursillo movement. Furthermore, CRHP was not even addressed during the ultreyas. It was also not promoted when I lived my retreat two years ago.

The retreat was an emotional experience. But, emotions are fleeting. When these pass, you need to have some strong roots to cling to or else you’ll be blowing in the wind.

 

[agapewolf]

It isn’t cursillo’s responsibility to plug any other kind of thing, it really wouldn’t make sense.

Once experiencing this kind of process, although experiencing a different one can still be rewarding, you still kind of know whats going to happen.

Cursillo is the very first of thse kind of “process retreats”…they have then taken many forms for different audiences…

Awakening for college campus ministry
TEC for younger folks, but regional rather than parish based
Luke 18 for Jr. high (although a lot lighter)
SEARCH, Quest,
Karois for particular high school classes
Encounter
Acts and CRHP

many more of course

CRHP is the same process, but designed for within the parish, to promote involvement and community within the parish. It follows alot of the same formation and forms as cursillos, with some tweaking.

I trully don’t understand why you would view CRHP with some suspicion. It really is pretty much the exact same thing as a cursillo, for a different audience. Actually, it does not have half of the emotional things that Cursillo has. If you are suspicious of CRHP, then you must have the same suspicions for cursillo.

 

[benedictgal]

It isn’t cursillo’s responsibility to plug any other kind of thing, it really wouldn’t make sense.

Once experiencing this kind of process, although experiencing a different one can still be rewarding, you still kind of know whats going to happen.

Cursillo is the very first of thse kind of “process retreats”…they have then taken many forms for different audiences…

Awakening for college campus ministry
TEC for younger folks, but regional rather than parish based
Luke 18 for Jr. high (although a lot lighter)
SEARCH, Quest,
Karois for particular high school classes
Encounter
Acts and CRHP

many more of course

CRHP is the same process, but designed for within the parish, to promote involvement and community within the parish. It follows alot of the same formation and forms as cursillos, with some tweaking.

I trully don’t understand why you would view CRHP with some suspicion. It really is pretty much the exact same thing as a cursillo, for a different audience. Actually, it does not have half of the emotional things that Cursillo has. If you are suspicious of CRHP, then you must have the same suspicions for cursillo.

Even though I enjoyed my Cursillo retreat, there were some elements that left a lot to be desired, especially the way in which the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and Adoration were handled. My retreat occured during Pentecost Sunday; however, not a mention of the feast was made and the Mass had a lot of abuses in it. Adoration had horrible music and there was no sense of the solemnity that is supposed to happen.

I left the retreat with some good things, but, I also spoke to the Spiritual Director and told him that he needed to take better care of how the Mass was handled.

Talking to my own spiritual director, we discussed Cursillo and CRHP. He explained to me that true renewal happens during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass because that is the source and summit of our life in the Church. Movements are okay, but, they are not the Church. We have to remember where our focus lies.

 

[Nephra]

Short answer: Unless there is flagrant liturgical abuse or teaching or acts contrary to Church teachings, you have not a leg to stand on for leaving.

Actually it is perfectly acceptable for her to go to mass at whatever parish she wants. I drive 30 miles outside my parish every Sunday to go to one that has the Tridentine Mass.

 

[Brendan]

They are still receiving Jesus in the Eucharist. They **are still participating in the Mass that they love. **!

You have to ask yourself, do they love the Mass, or do they love the music and social aspects.

Which one is more critical to their salvation?

This is a variation of the question St. John of the Cross posed, does one love the God of Comforts, or the Comforts of God.

That is why God gives people spiritual dryness, where they feel nothing. It gives them a chance to purge themselves from relying on the emotions that Grace brings and focusing instead on the Grace itself.

Perhaps if you read some of St. John of the Cross’s work “Dark Night of the Soul”, you might have a better understanding of what your pastor wishes your teens to acomplish.

 

[dzenmarek]

Just a personal experience that may or may not be relevant:

In my first marriage (that I recieved a decree of nullity for) my husband was a convert… throughout the 16 years we were married we went to church every single week. While I never felt his faith was strong, I was glad it was there. I knew that he didn’t have the solid belief system that I had/have, but based on our continuing presence at mass, I felt that he was ok.

During the last five years of our marriage we were in a parish that I knew wasn’t “feeding” my then-husband. Perhaps no parish could have reached him, I don’t know. I do know that I went through a long period trying to decide if we should “grow where we were planted” or “go where we would be fed” as the pithy sayings went. While I was still trying to figure this out, my husband stopped going to mass-- he wouldn’t even attend for the kids’ sake, never mind his own! Within two years he had left me and our 6 young children.

Given that we did recieve a decree of nullity there were obvious problems that pre-existed the marriage. And in following God’s will for myself and my children I am now in a wonderful Catholic marriage with a man with whom I can freely and regularly pray, and yes, attend mass.

My point is that not everyone is going to have the same strengths as a fully affirmed Catholic. We are all at different points on our faith journey and some need more affirmation than others.

 

[voice_of_truth]

You have to ask yourself, do they love the Mass, or do they love the music and social aspects.

Which one is more critical to their salvation?

They actually love both the Mass and the music that leads their spirits to worship God in a way they enjoy. I believe you can have the both. Many have gone to a parish that does offer both which does exist fairly close to our parish. Some have gone who knows where, maybe nowhere. It’s those individuals that I am most concerned about. We were ministering to some pretty tough kids (gang members and such) that were starting to see the love of God and get a glimpse of the Truth, even if ever so slightly. I am afraid some of those kids are going back in the wrong direction.

I realize there are other things you might suggest that I could do at our parish to try and help improve the situation with the youth. But honestly, our Pastor is not very youth friendly. I honestly believe he either does not understand them or just plain does not want to. My feeling from recent experience is that he does not have the time and/or patience to deal with people at lower levels of faith maturity. He really seems to look down upon their immaturity and unpolished behavior. Unfortunately, trying to please him and effectively minister to the youth has taken a serious toll on me and my family. That is why my wife and I are starting to grow weary and are now praying about changing to a parish that has the environment and leadership we feel are important to the spiritual well being of our family. I am a very strong and devout Catholic, but when is enough, enough?

The bottom line is that I don’t feel that I can live out my God-given mission to effectively evangelize the youth especially, but also the adults in our parish under the current Pastor. I do not want to abandon those that I love. But is God calling me to a different parish through all of this? That is my prayer. Lead me Lord!!!

 

[DallasCatholic]

They actually love both the Mass and the music that leads their spirits to worship God in a way they enjoy. I believe you can have the both. Many have gone to a parish that does offer both which does exist fairly close to our parish. Some have gone who knows where, maybe nowhere. It’s those individuals that I am most concerned about. We were ministering to some pretty tough kids (gang members and such) that were starting to see the love of God and get a glimpse of the Truth, even if ever so slightly. I am afraid some of those kids are going back in the wrong direction.

I realize there are other things you might suggest that I could do at our parish to try and help improve the situation with the youth. But honestly, our Pastor is not very youth friendly. I honestly believe he either does not understand them or just plain does not want to. My feeling from recent experience is that he does not have the time and/or patience to deal with people at lower levels of faith maturity. He really seems to look down upon their immaturity and unpolished behavior. Unfortunately, trying to please him and effectively minister to the youth has taken a serious toll on me and my family. That is why my wife and I are starting to grow weary and are now praying about changing to a parish that has the environment and leadership we feel are important to the spiritual well being of our family. I am a very strong and devout Catholic, but when is enough, enough?

The bottom line is that I don’t feel that I can live out my God-given mission to effectively evangelize the youth especially, but also the adults in our parish under the current Pastor. I do not want to abandon those that I love. But is God calling me to a different parish through all of this? That is my prayer. Lead me Lord!!!

You have received quite a bit of good advice and I admire you for not “hitting back” at some of the less than charitable posts. Let me offer you some advice that I haven’t seen here; find yourself a Priest or Deacon who will serve as your Spiritual Director. This is a big decision and you should take advantage of all of the help you can get. A competant Spiritual Director can help guide your prayer and help you discern the correct path. I don’t know where you are located but if you can’t find a Priest or Deacon in your parish or a parish near you then I would suggest seeking out a Priest or brother/sister from a religous order in your city. Based on what I have read in your posts I think you would find an Ignatian retreat to be of great help. There are Jesuit retreat centers all over the USA and they have 4 day retreats almost every week of the year, I highly recommend attending one asap.

 

[benedictgal]

They actually love both the Mass and the music that leads their spirits to worship God in a way they enjoy. I believe you can have the both. Many have gone to a parish that does offer both which does exist fairly close to our parish. Some have gone who knows where, maybe nowhere. It’s those individuals that I am most concerned about. We were ministering to some pretty tough kids (gang members and such) that were starting to see the love of God and get a glimpse of the Truth, even if ever so slightly. I am afraid some of those kids are going back in the wrong direction.

I realize there are other things you might suggest that I could do at our parish to try and help improve the situation with the youth. But honestly, our Pastor is not very youth friendly. I honestly believe he either does not understand them or just plain does not want to. My feeling from recent experience is that he does not have the time and/or patience to deal with people at lower levels of faith maturity. He really seems to look down upon their immaturity and unpolished behavior. Unfortunately, trying to please him and effectively minister to the youth has taken a serious toll on me and my family. That is why my wife and I are starting to grow weary and are now praying about changing to a parish that has the environment and leadership we feel are important to the spiritual well being of our family. I am a very strong and devout Catholic, but when is enough, enough?

The bottom line is that I don’t feel that I can live out my God-given mission to effectively evangelize the youth especially, but also the adults in our parish under the current Pastor. I do not want to abandon those that I love. But is God calling me to a different parish through all of this? That is my prayer. Lead me Lord!!!

Something in the tone of your posts leads me to believe that perhaps you are trying to desperately hold on to something and make it more important than the Church.

While it is laudable that you care about your fellow parishioners, you need to ask some serious questions. Is my pride being hurt because of the changes the pastor has made? Do I make the ministry more important than the Church, herself? Is it God who is calling me, or am I listening to another voice who may be telling me that if it’s not my way, I’ll leave?

In his farewell discourse, Jesus refers to himself as the vine and his followers as the branches. But, he says that sometimes, the branches need pruning. Perhaps what your pastor is doing is pruning some of the externals that would hinder the faith of the people. Maybe he found certain things that were legitimately problematic with LifeTeen or with CRHP. Leveling accusations against the priest about his being allegedly against youth borders on being judgmental. For all you know, he could be genuinely interested in the kids, but, perceives that LifeTeen is not the way to go. He may be interested in renewing the faith life of his parish, but not through CRHP. There are many variables that need to be studied.

I highlighted your statements because you seem to make yourself the focus of the argument here. While what you have been doing is a noble effort, you need to pull back and ask yourself: for what reasons am I doing this? Believe me, I’ve been there, done that, bought the t-shirt and sold the movie rights. The whole thing boils down to this: is it about me and what I want to do, or, is it about God?

My dad had the same issues with the K of C. He started a second 4th degree assembly and was very pro-active in many of the order’s events. However, the priest at his third-degree council pretty much dismantled it. There were some hurt feelings, but, my dad pulled back and said that it wasn’t and shouldn’t be about him. It should be about God.

Lent is the perfect time to prayerfully reflect on what it really is that God is asking of you, asking of all of us to do.

 

[voice_of_truth]

Let me offer you some advice that I haven’t seen here; find yourself a Priest or Deacon who will serve as your Spiritual Director. This is a big decision and you should take advantage of all of the help you can get. A competant Spiritual Director can help guide your prayer and help you discern the correct path.

Your post hit me like a ton of bricks! It is so obvious that I didn’t even think of it. It has been suggested to me in the past that I need to get a Spiritual Director. However, I pretty much just ignored all of those promptings due my tendencies to want to fix everything myself. I have a fairly decent prayer life. But I do believe God is calling me to a deeper relationship with Him and a good Spiritual Director would definitely help me discern God’s will and choose the right path for my faith journey and life mission. I thank God for using you to speak to me today. THANKS and God Bless!!!

 

[DallasCatholic]

Your post hit me like a ton of bricks! It is so obvious that I didn’t even think of it. It has been suggested to me in the past that I need to get a Spiritual Director. However, I pretty much just ignored all of those promptings due my tendencies to want to fix everything myself. I have a fairly decent prayer life. But I do believe God is calling me to a deeper relationship with Him and a good Spiritual Director would definitely help me discern God’s will and choose the right path for my faith journey and life mission. I thank God for using you to speak to me today. THANKS and God Bless!!!

God Bless you and your family.