Need apologetics help about existence of hell

[fladreamer]

Yes, that is the point, it is complicated, and even more than that.

Annihilation is not what the OP was posting about. It was about prevention of existence before it got to annihilation.

Yeah I’m aware of that. But there is no denying that God knowing beforehand that someone, who hasn’t been conceived by his parents and ensouled by him yet, will ultimately end up in eternal misery and God still going ahead and creating that soul is not good. Good being defined as willing someone’s good, someone’s best, then God clearly doesn’t will that person’s good. He may in a wishy-washy kind of way, but in reality, knowing that his end will be eternal ruin, God is not good to that person. If I know before hand that if I do x for you, you will misuse it so badly that you’ll end up on deathrow within 5 years, I won’t do it, period. God calls us humans ‘‘bad’’, yet no one in his right mind would give or do anything for/to someone they love if it brought about their destruction. Let alone eternal destruction. Annihilation solves all those problems and is in keeping with God’s justice and omnibenevolence.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Hi,

Objection to be answered:
God does not allow any evil, especially the evil of death, without willing a greater good to come from it (see Rm 8:28).This is true,

1. But how is it a greater good that God would create someone, and allow them to reject Him, because it seems there is no good from that at all.

The freedom to choose one’s own path. The freedom to choose the way of truth and love. The rejection of God is it’s own path with it’s own consequences. God honors us with the freedom to choose. One doesn’t give this freedom to just anything but only to that which is held in highest regard. Do you give freedom to your car? Only something with an intellect can make choices. By giving us an intellect and a will God gives us the highest honor, to be made in his image. To be like Him as a reflection of his goodness.

1. How is it a greater good that God would create us with free will, than not create those who will be damned at all, since his omniscience knows who will reject Him?

.

God does not create anyone to be damned. His will is for all to be saved. His foreknowledge does not contradict his will. He does not create anyone for the purpose of them choosing evil. But, he allows them to choose their own path. Yet, he gives everyone sufficient grace to choose him. He wills no one to be damned. People choose to be separated from God. They reject truth, goodness, and love. It is the path they have freely chosen. If they were not free to choose it then they could not be accountable for their actions. Only free moral beings could be held accountable for their actions, which is what we are. We have been given a responsibility being created in the image and likeness of God. What is the danger and evil that we could unleash upon the universe? Man who is like a god? What is the danger of evil corrupting all of space and time? Only God knows.

Can you prove that God could not have morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil? We know that evil can not last forever and will be put in its place. And, all injustices will be made just by God in the end.

 

[fladreamer]

God does not create anyone to be damned. His will is for all to be saved. His foreknowledge does not contradict his will. He does not create anyone for the purpose of them choosing evil. But, he allows them to choose their own path. Yet,** he gives everyone sufficient grace to choose him. ** He wills no one to be damned. People choose to be separated from God. They reject truth, goodness, and love. It is the path they have freely chosen. If they were not free to choose it then they could not be accountable for their actions. Only free moral beings could be held accountable for their actions, which is what we are. We have been given a responsibility being created in the image and likeness of God. What is the danger and evil that we could unleash upon the universe? Man who is like a god? What is the danger of evil corrupting all of space and time? Only God knows.

Can you prove that God could not have morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil? We know that evil can not last forever and will be put in its place. And, all injustices will be made just by God in the end.

Yet the phrase ‘‘But there for the grace of God go I’’ contradicts that. What’s the implication here? I’ve received enough grace, whereas the other fellow didn’t.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Yet the phrase ‘‘But there for the grace of God go I’’ contradicts that. What’s the implication here? I’ve received enough grace, whereas the other fellow didn’t.

Indeed, it’s like thinking “Good thing God loves me more than that bum, or I’d be just like that!” Some people have convinced themselves that this is humility, but in my opinion it is a deep spiritual sickness and a slander against God.

Yesterday I was sitting in traffic in the rain. I live in a large city. It has been hot lately, and it was raining heavily yesterday. I pull up to the red light and wait. On the corner I see what looks like a pile of garbage on top of a wheel chair. A broken cardboard box is atop this heap of trash, absorbing the rain. I think to myself "dear God, let that be just a pile of trash and not a human being. As the light turns green I take a right turn. I look at the pile of garbage, and out from under the cardboard box I see the extended frail hand of an elderly woman grasping a small cup, trembling from either Parkinson’s or the desire to attract the mercy and generosity of even one hurried business person on their way to another meeting.

Should I say “there but for the grace of God go I?” How disgusting! As if God loves me more and that’s why I am in my nice dry car. How utterly puerile and devastatingly self-absorbed.

Instead my heart shattered into small pieces. I felt rage, I felt helplessness, I felt despair. How could God let this happen? How could he let one of his children’s lives be reduced to this? How can our lives be so meaningless, how can nature be so cruel?

Now imagine huge numbers of people are going to be tortured endlessly and relentlessly for eternity, held in existence by God’s will alone.

If that is the ultimate reality, if that is the final truth about God, the universe, and the destiny of humanity, then I sincerely wish I’d never been born. I gladly and happily “return my ticket” as Ivan Karamazov said. I would gladly give up my entire existence, every shred of goodness and happiness I’ve ever experienced, if that were the required cost to ensure that no human being is going to end up tortured forever.

The happiness of heaven is a total sham if something like hell exists. Either that, or the beings in heaven are not in some virtuous spiral of love with God, but the remains of human beings, stripped totally of any compassion whatsoever. Only a totally selfish sociopath could be OK with Christian eschatology, in my opinion.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Yet the phrase ‘‘But there for the grace of God go I’’ contradicts that. What’s the implication here? I’ve received enough grace, whereas the other fellow didn’t.

How does it contradict? I said everyone receives sufficient grace. However, not everyone responds to that grace. The seed is scattered, but it does not only fall on receptive soil.

 

[fisherman_carl]

It’s pride to think we can do it on our own without God’s grace.

 

[fladreamer]

How does it contradict? I said everyone receives sufficient grace. However, not everyone responds to that grace. The seed is scattered, but it does not only fall on receptive soil.

So for the deplorable state she’s in, the elderly woman, that PumpkinCookie just alluded to, has no one but herself to blame? Didn’t the Lady of Fatima say that many souls go to hell because they have nobody to pray and sacrifice for them? Direct implication: if more grace(s) had been yanked, so to speak, from God’s hands, many, many souls would have gone to heaven instead of hell. Pray tell me, did these souls effectively receive sufficient grace? So, in a nutshell, that’s what I meant by ‘‘contradict’’.

 

[fred_conty]

So for the deplorable state she’s in, the elderly woman, that PumpkinCookie just alluded to, has no one but herself to blame? Didn’t the Lady of Fatima say that many souls go to hell because they have nobody to pray and sacrifice for them? Direct implication: if more grace(s) had been yanked, so to speak, from God’s hands, many, many souls would have gone to heaven instead of hell. Pray tell me, did these souls effectively receive sufficient grace? So, in a nutshell, that’s what I meant by ‘‘contradict’’.

I don’t think we can jump to any conclusion about who is responsible for the deplorable state of this elderly woman. We just don’t know the facts.

There are three kinds of people living on the street: addicts, the unstable, the homeless. This woman might be unstable and has refused all the help she was offered and wants to live on the street rather than in a shelter home. We really don’t know until it is determined. Many of the poor refuse help or want help only on their terms.

Everyone receives sufficient grace, but not everyone uses it, which is what fisherman carl said also.

I sounds like you might be saying that this woman did not receive sufficient grace because of her poor condition of her situation. But that isn’t the point of grace. Grace is intended to help the person to heaven by giving them the support in overcoming evil and doing good.

Grace’s central point isn’t to eliminate human suffering directly. Grace may do that indirectly by making others good and from that goodness, they would then go out of their way to address the sufferings and needs of others.

However there is one kind of suffering that grace does help and that is in the time of trial and temptation. And so St. Paul said in a trial of his that he prayed for help. And the answer he received was, “my grace is sufficient for you.” Meaning that God had already given him enough strength to be strong and overcome his trial and that he did not need more grace for that.

So the sad material condition of this elderly woman is not because she did not receive sufficient grace. Her condition is due to any number of things. So there is no contradiction if grace is understood in its true meaning.

“God does not see as man sees; man looks at appearances but the Lord looks at the heart.” 1 Samuel 16:7

 

[fladreamer]

I don’t think we can jump to any conclusion about who is responsible for the deplorable state of this elderly woman. We just don’t know the facts.

There are three kinds of people living on the street: addicts, the unstable, the homeless. This woman might be unstable and has refused all the help she was offered and wants to live on the street rather than in a shelter home. We really don’t know until it is determined. Many of the poor refuse help or want help only on their terms.

Everyone receives sufficient grace, but not everyone uses it, which is what fisherman carl said also.

I sounds like you might be saying that this woman did not receive sufficient grace because of her poor condition of her situation. But that isn’t the point of grace. Grace is intended to help the person to heaven by giving them the support in overcoming evil and doing good.

Grace’s central point isn’t to eliminate human suffering directly. Grace may do that indirectly by making others good and from that goodness, they would then go out of their way to address the sufferings and needs of others.

However there is one kind of suffering that grace does help and that is in the time of trial and temptation. And so St. Paul said in a trial of his that he prayed for help. And the answer he received was, “my grace is sufficient for you.” Meaning that God had already given him enough strength to be strong and overcome his trial and that he did not need more grace for that.

So the sad material condition of this elderly woman is not because she did not receive sufficient grace. Her condition is due to any number of things. So there is no contradiction if grace is understood in its true meaning.

“God does not see as man sees; man looks at appearances but the Lord looks at the heart.” 1 Samuel 16:7

So, it’s all her fault. Because if you say it’s not, then your whole theory falls apart. AND you’ll have to deny the problematic ‘‘Many souls go to hell because they have nobody to pray and sacrifice for them’’, you either have to deny it was ever spoken or deny its veracity. Which one do you pick?

Can you comment on the ‘‘But for the grace of God there go I’’? It sort of implies the beholder got a more liberal serving of grace than the other person, doesn’t it? Perhaps she’s prone to depression, maybe she is paranoid, she might have schizophrenia, she might have grown up in a violent, unstable household, she might have been born in a family where alcoholism, drug abuse, and mental health issues were rampant, she may have been painfully shy, anxious, on the autism spectrum, she may have been sexually abused by her father, her stepfather(s), she may have had dyslexia, a learning disorder, or a relatively low iQ and been called ‘‘stupid’’ everywhere she went etc. You’re aware that a couple of bad knocks, if they are serious enough, and happen at a young age, can destroy someone, break them psychologically? I don’t know that woman, or any other homeless person for that matter, but I can only imagine many things must have gone terribly wrong, and NOT all these things were their fault. So reality tells me not everyone gets sufficient grace, far from it, in the temporal realm, and if the Fatima quote is accurate and reflects reality, in the eternal realm either.

 

[fisherman_carl]

I don’t think we can jump to any conclusion about who is responsible for the deplorable state of this elderly woman. We just don’t know the facts.

Right, God is the just judge, not us.

…

As far as someone not having anyone to pray for them I would think that they would be covered under the many prayers we say for people of the whole world. The divine mercy chaplet for instance. There is no way I can pray for 6 billion people individually, but I can pray for everyone. I believe that God is love and he desires no one to be condemned. Jesus says in John 3:17 that he did not come to comdemn anyone but save them. God’s Kingdom in Jesus Christ is a kingdom of love and mercy. I truly believe that. It is not about trying to be good enough to get into heaven, but the good news is that God’s Kingdom is a kingdom of love. All we are asked to do is to join him in that Kingdom. We can do this right now on earth as it is in heaven. It is the greatest place to be. We do not need any threats to live there if we truly understand what God’s kingdom is. Let us repent and believe the good and awesome news of the gospel, let us abide in his love and mercy and live there. God’s kingdom is not a kingdom of threats or harsh judgments, but of love and mercy. It is a Kingdom of looking out for your fellow man, feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the prisoner, etc… Now to earn our salvation, but to live in God’s love. To know love and live in love is the greatest gift we could possibly have. Having God’s heart of mercy for everyone you meet. This is only possible in God’s kingdom. There is no fear in perfect love.

 

[fisherman_carl]

. Now to earn our salvation, but to live in God’s love…

That’s a typo. Should say Not to earn our salvation.

 

[fred_conty]

So, it’s all her fault. Because if you say it’s not, then your whole theory falls apart. AND you’ll have to deny the problematic ‘‘Many souls go to hell because they have nobody to pray and sacrifice for them’’, you either have to deny it was ever spoken or deny its veracity. Which one do you pick?

Can you comment on the ‘‘But for the grace of God there go I’’? It sort of implies the beholder got a more liberal serving of grace than the other person, doesn’t it? Perhaps she’s prone to depression, maybe she is paranoid, she might have schizophrenia, she might have grown up in a violent, unstable household, she might have been born in a family where alcoholism, drug abuse, and mental health issues were rampant, she may have been painfully shy, anxious, on the autism spectrum, she may have been sexually abused by her father, her stepfather(s), she may have had dyslexia, a learning disorder, or a relatively low iQ and been called ‘‘stupid’’ everywhere she went etc. You’re aware that a couple of bad knocks, if they are serious enough, and happen at a young age, can destroy someone, break them psychologically? I don’t know that woman, or any other homeless person for that matter, but I can only imagine many things must have gone terribly wrong, and NOT all these things were their fault. So reality tells me not everyone gets sufficient grace, far from it, in the temporal realm, and if the Fatima quote is accurate and reflects reality, in the eternal realm either.

Noone has said it was her fault or that it wasn’t her fault. Noone knows until they find out the facts.

And I haven’t heard anyone deny that others need praying for whether it is their fault or not their fault.

“But for the grace of God there go I” isn’t a dogma but just an expression. It means that a person is very gratefull to God for their life situation after seeing someone else in a life situation more disturbing. It’s based on “count your blessings”, or “appreciate what you have.”

Now you may be thinking, “that is my point, one person was blessed more by God that another.”

This story answers that.

There is story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. “Such bad luck,” they said sympathetically.

“Maybe,” the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. “How wonderful,” the neighbors exclaimed.

“Maybe,” replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune.

“Maybe,” answered the farmer. The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son’s leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. “Maybe,” said the farmer.

And here is a thought from the Bible. It says that the sun shines on the good and the evil, and it rains on the evil as well as the good. And in some cases, God seems to treat the evil people better than the good people. And it says in the Psalms not to be jealous of this for in the end it will work itself out fairly. The wheat will be separated from the chaf.

So we actually can’t determine who are being blessed just by looking at them. Should we envy the rich or the poor? Which is really blessed more and by what value system?

“God does not see as man sees; man looks at appearances but the Lord looks at the heart.” 1 Samuel 16:7