Need help: Argument about God and evil

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I am arguing with a friend about God and the problem of evil, and he has essentially claimed that if God is responsible for all of creation, then he is responsible for evil. Here is the exact text:
Finally, if I get on board with the necessity of finite causality (which I’m not) and fuse that necessity to an all-everything being through which all that exists was DESIGNED and created to a tee, that being is then the being upon which all the suffering that was and ever is rests. He can not blame the “middle man.” (Like a table of dominoes.) If nothing can ever occur that this first cause God did not ‘intend’ (key word) to occur, every murder and rape was not just allowed to occur, but both designed and created to occur. And were such a pre-planned event to ultimately not occur, God would cease to be God, for he would cease to have all-power and knowledge. Therefore, in this chain of causality it is not the domino’s fault (man’s fault) that it fell, but the “first cause” that pushed it.
This is a primary reason I don’t like first cause arguments. They make the arsonist also the savior firefighter and reduce themselves (and Christianity) to blaming the matchstick (Eve) rather than God. Ultimately, such a system (and God) makes this life unnecessary, ever cruel.
How would you respond to this argument? I am trying to get through to him.
 
+JMJ+
I am arguing with a friend about God and the problem of evil, and he has essentially claimed that if God is responsible for all of creation, then he is responsible for evil. Here is the exact text:

How would you respond to this argument? I am trying to get through to him.
Ask him whether it is possible to make any being who has the capacity and capability to love but does not have the capacity and capability to hate 👍
 
God created us with free will. Free will can lead to evil. He created us with free will so we would not be robots and so that we would freely choose to love him because that means so much more than being forced to love without free will.
It was free will that caused the fall of humanity. God said don’t eat of the tree, yet they chose to disobey, God warned and tried to deter evil, but they used their free will choice to their detriment. Free will can equal evil. Not God makes evil.
Though free will can also equal good. It’s our choice. Even satan made his choice God did not force him to be evil.
 
It sounds like he has a problem with free will and omniscience, as well as a (less pronounced in this argument, at least) disagreement over what exactly is evil (and what evil is).

For the first: God created us with the ability to make real actual choices which, while able to be influenced, in the end depend on us.

That God knows what choices we will make “before” we make them does not change this - and I even put before in quotes because using time words like that with God tends to be problematic. God knows everything, all of creation (not only everywhere, but everywhen, past present and future) is visible to Him as a single object which He can view from the outside. God is not simply another creature who happened to stroll through time faster than we (or our perceptions or whatever) do and hence has seen everything already, but really and truly other and outside of creation.

I think that’s the key - there is no real conflict between God’s omniscience and the fact that our choices really are ours. The ability to make the choice comes from God, and He even knows which ones we will make. But the choice itself, that’s from us.

You could say that choice has its source in our ability to make choices which has its source in God so that the ultimate source of a choice is in God, but in this case “source” does not exactly mean “cause,” especially in any moral sense since the decision making ability we have, our person-hood, is not a clockwork thing following rules entirely built in by the source, but an actual real independent process which can come up with things independently of everything that came before it - to say otherwise would be to say you could blame a mother for the sins of her child because without her he would not exist. So again, key point: our choices are really ours, God knows what they will be, and God gave us the ability to make them, and there is no conflict between those statements.

Which leads into the second: And if our choices really are ours, then you can blame God for the possibility of evil, but not for each individual evil thing itself, since those originate in creatures. But while it is easy to argue that a good thing is better than a bad thing, it would be much harder to argue that the absolute impossibility of evil - with the limiting of will that that implies - is necessarily better than the possibility of evil. (Partially because an impossibility of evil removes the possibility of creatures being in any real sense able to do anything good as well.)

It is also worth noting that suffering (physical evil, or at least part of it sort of) and moral evil are distinct, and that both types of evil are more a lack or imperfection, or perhaps a perversion, a twisting, of good than things in themselves. Thus it is more that we in our obstinance are able to freely choose to not make things as good as we should make them rather than to create some other destructive force called evil which annihilates whatever goodness it comes into contact with.

With this in mind, the idea that we can say that the sentence “God is the source of the possibility of evil” (taken together with the idea that creation is moving towards perfection) can be rephrased as “God allows creation, seen at a particular point in time in isolation, to be less than perfect now so that it can participate in its own perfection and hence have some parts of it share in the good act of creation itself.”

That is to say, creation can not just refrain from containing those things we dislike and be devoid of suffering, but contain actual real good, actual people with the ability to do otherwise choosing to do what is right over self-interest and the like. Or to put it another way, creation as a whole (that is, considering all times rather than just all places, and not limited to the physical) really is “the best of all possible worlds” because there is very real good going on inside it which would not be there in a universe of automatons - but as a side effect slices of creation at specific times are less than perfect. (Or to put it in math nerd terms, a finite function can approach infinity without ever being infinite. In some ways I am too tired to explore at the moment, that actually seems like a pretty good analogy given that finite creation cannot be as good as the infinitely good God.)

An article related to the second part I recommend patheos.com/Library/Roman-Catholicism/Beliefs/Suffering-and-the-Problem-of-Evil.html.

Caveat: there is a lot of 2am thinking at work here, so take this with a boulder of salt. But I think it mostly makes sense.
 
a book I highly highly recommend for yourself and your friend is Peter Kreefts “Making sense out of suffering” I literally read it in one day, it answers this question superbly, from a bunch of different angles. It looks short, and at first I thought, “no way he can answer the deepest question humanity has ever known in less than 200 pages” but wow, he did!!

And C.S. Lewis “the problem of pain” is a good one too. Little different angle.

One of the things Kreeft says in his book (if I can remember correctly) that really struck me, was we can try to imagine being God, and how we would make a world without evil, but truly the only way we can do that is to limit freedom, and therefore limit love, and I’m not sure anyone would really say that’s a better alternative.

But I also would point out, eliminating God because of evil really only backfires, like burning down a house because you found termites. Because suddenly, we’re left with no moral absolute by which to judge something as good or evil. It becomes a matter of opinion. If theres no God, no absolute Good, then by what criterion are we judging something as good or bad? Our own tastes?? Why would it be wrong to commit adultery for example? Or murder? Evolution dictates survival of the fittest, so if someone’s too weak to defend themselves, then humanity’s actually being serviced by that person dying.

That thought rightly fills any decent human being with disgust, but it’s hard to convincingly argue a reason why, if there’s no God. Eliminating God doesn’t eliminate evil, it only institutionalizes it.

Of course, that argument doesn’t necessarily prove God is good, it only shows evil doesn’t disprove his existence. For proving evil doesn’t contradict his goodness check those books out!! 👍

I hope this wasn’t too hard to follow, going on low mental battery here;)
 
Oh also, him saying basically its God’s fault for evil because he made the people who do evil things, kinda sounds like to me blaming the inventor of the car because some people drove it off a cliff. It’s not his fault you misused it. Same thing with free will.

But in Christianity, we believe God didn’t just go “oh well, your fault! Climb yourself back up over the cliff yourself!” But went down and picked us up and put all of our pieces back together.👍
 
I am arguing with a friend about God and the problem of evil, and he has essentially claimed that if God is responsible for all of creation, then he is responsible for evil.
We have the capacity to love.
Love requires freedom to choose otherwise it is not and never will be “Love”.

Without freedom then you would never know if someone actually loves you.
This is how we were made - with free will.

As we saw from the very beginning (Adam and Eve), many people to the present day choose to do the wrong thing.
The only way to remove the possibility that someone can choose the “wrong” is to remove free will.

To point out one sin (say rape), that your friend may not have committed, as a problem that God “caused”,
obviously reveals a little bit of the Pharisee in him because he compares himself to the tax collector (the really bad sinner) and not to God.
He chose to highlight someone else’s sin and not his own.

We can all do that can’t we?
But we are all sinners.

Does your friend mind if someone points out the errors in him as a reason that God is at fault? (this last point just came to me as I was responding to you but I decided to put it out there for reflection anyway)
 
I am arguing with a friend about God and the problem of evil, and he has essentially claimed that if God is responsible for all of creation, then he is responsible for evil. Here is the exact text:

How would you respond to this argument? I am trying to get through to him.
  1. The problem of evil can only exist if evil exist. How can your friend explain the existence of evil without the existence of God? If he throws a bunch of subjective answers your way, let you friend know that subjective evil is hardly grounds for condemning anyone of anything. If he rejects the existence of evil, then your friend rejects the very problem which he is proposing.
  2. God does not create evil. Some might say evil exists the way a hole exists. A hole in the ground does not exist, its that there is a lack of dirt where dirt should be. I, personally, am shakey about this argument, but some are fond of it. Show your friend that free will is good. Free will means choosing between God and not God, which is ultimately choosing between good and evil. If God creates moral agents with the potential to do evil, that is not the same as creating evil. Free will, of itself, is good. What is wrong with this world, as a result of our poor choices, will be fixed, correct, punished, or rewarded in the next. So much so that it will all be worth it.
  3. Your friend cannot show that God cannot be good, omniscient, and omnipotent while evil exists in the world. Also, he cannot show that evil can exist without God, who provides the proper metaphysics to make such value claims. God and evil can co-exist without logical contradiction, but evil cannot exist without God. Tell your friend you empathize with their pain and their concern, but there is no logical problem here. At best there may be emotional objections, or perhaps they is a psychological desire for there to be a logical problem here, but there is not. It would be easier to say that God and evil exist than to say that both do not exist.
Lastly, if they question God’s goodness, remind your friend that good is good and evil is evil for a reason. Remind him that God rewards good and punishes evil. God is good. Tell your friend, with all love and respect, that if he is concerned about the problem of evil, he need first look into his own life. Remind him that rejecting moral principles as moral principles does not make one a more moral person, it is making moral choices and living with ethical character that makes one a more moral person. In other words, don’t allow him to cop out by saying he follows the subjective principles he considers to be moral (and even then, he might not even do that all the time).

My 2 cents. The Lord be with you, and grace on your friend.
 
Also, your friend made a statement about how God made a world for rape and murder to occur… I think it is a subtle, but important, correction to say God created a world where such things would be allowed to occur, but with a greater plan in mind. Make sure he understands that he is not a Biblical scholar or a theologian and that he should not put words in their mouths by quoting the Scriptures the way he does. That may be his understanding, understanding he got from uninformed laity, or perhaps uninformed clergy, but is ultimately uninformed. Lastly, suffering is not inherently evil. I may suffer to get a shot/vaccine, a criminal suffers as just punishment. Unnecessary suffering is evil, but there is no way to show that the suffering humankind goes through is unnecessary for a greater good. Also, tell him he is judging good with the wrong metaphysics for morals. You cannot judge God the way you would judge a human being because there is a lot more in the equation. Tell your friend that he hates evil so much because he was created to hate evil and view evil… as evil. That alone should be enough to say something good and anti-evil about his creator.
 
One note I forgot to mention: My friend believes in God, but not the god of classical theism as Catholics and Protestants do. He believes that if God knows everything I do before I do it, and he is responsible for my creation, he is responsible for the evil that I do because he could stop it if he chose to do so. As a result he believes in a Mormon-type God that didn’t create everything, but merely organized the earth from already existing stuff in the universe.

He is claiming that Catholics believe in double predestination, even though they deny it.
 
One note I forgot to mention: My friend believes in God, but not the god of classical theism as Catholics and Protestants do. He believes that if God knows everything I do before I do it, and he is responsible for my creation, he is responsible for the evil that I do because he could stop it if he chose to do so. As a result he believes in a Mormon-type God that didn’t create everything, but merely organized the earth from already existing stuff in the universe.

He is claiming that Catholics believe in double predestination, even though they deny it.
This view of creation runs into the same problem as the naturalist view. Unless your friend can argue how the material creation could be transcendent, it seems like he falls into the problem of infinite regress. Also, this view does not prevent the problem of evil. Just because i did not make the bricks does not mean i didnt create the wall. Thomas defines evil as a distorted good, and it is not something all its own. It is a perversion, not a substance on its own. Furthermore, how does one create evil? Thats similar to saying “I created one.” One what? Evil is used to describe something or attribute a value to it. God did not take a bag of dust and create evil. Only actions, or one’s character, can be evil. Also, tell your friend to research compatabilism and self-determined freedom or the warfare model.
 
To clarify, i did not mean actions or one’s character can be evil of itself, intrinsically or inherently. However one can choose to do evil or have an un-virtuous character, both of which are choices.
 
One note I forgot to mention: My friend believes in God, but not the god of classical theism as Catholics and Protestants do. He believes that if God knows everything I do before I do it, and he is responsible for my creation, he is responsible for the evil that I do because he could stop it if he chose to do so. As a result he believes in a Mormon-type God that didn’t create everything, but merely organized the earth from already existing stuff in the universe.

He is claiming that Catholics believe in double predestination, even though they deny it.
Sorry, just a few more points. I want children some day. I know that theyll mess up and fall into sin. Should i choose not to have children? That would be silly. Also, creating the potential for evil is not the same as creating evil. The potential for evil action must exist for free will and moral agency to exist. God does not determine our choices for us, but allows us to make them and makes us capable. Know that I would choose evil is simply knowing that I would exercise my free will in such a way. So God should not create me with free will because He knew I would choose evil? How is that not deterministic? Your friend has not substantiated his argument. Though, we could have a field day dismantling his view of a god. He hasnt even defended, based on what you have told me, how this allows him to escape the problem.
 
Here is his latest response:

Catholics must hold that the First Cause had a perfect knowledge of ALL future actions that stemmed from that first creative act; not just some; not just the good stuff. Also, Catholics must hold that the First Cause INTENDED for everything to occur that does; not just some; not just the good stuff. Wonderful and brilliant Catholic and Protestants mena and women alike have spilled oceans of ink trying to get around what is a very hard truth when drawn to its logical conclusion: GOD IS WHOLLY SOVEREIGN, not just 99%. You mentioned Matt. Speak with him. He’ll tell you the exact same thing I am; namely, despite protestations, creation ex-nihilo leaves you with one script, not many, and one script writer - the First Cause. The buck stops with it.
We cannot shift blame from God to those who could not have done other than God designed them to do before he created them. Hitler could not have done other than that which God knew he would before God created him and birthed him on 20 April 1889 in Austria. If Hitler was the match, God is the arsonist. We don’t blame matchsticks for arson in any other mode of discourse. To do so would be absurd. Why then do we allow ourselves to employ such backward logic when talking about God??? God KNEW Hitler would slaughter 7 million people – God designed and created him anyway. At that very moment God became the arsonist. Hitler could not have not murdered millions at that point BECAUSE that is what God knew he would do before God created him. At some point we have to call out design for what it is – DESIGN! God didn’t just know of Hitler. God designed Hitler. God wrote Hitler’s life before he created the real Hitler. God is the great first cause; God is the arsonist.


I am having a hard time seeing fault with his argument.
 
Here is his latest response:

Catholics must hold that the First Cause had a perfect knowledge of ALL future actions that stemmed from that first creative act; not just some; not just the good stuff. Also, Catholics must hold that the First Cause INTENDED for everything to occur that does; not just some; not just the good stuff. Wonderful and brilliant Catholic and Protestants mena and women alike have spilled oceans of ink trying to get around what is a very hard truth when drawn to its logical conclusion: GOD IS WHOLLY SOVEREIGN, not just 99%. You mentioned Matt. Speak with him. He’ll tell you the exact same thing I am; namely, despite protestations, creation ex-nihilo leaves you with one script, not many, and one script writer - the First Cause. The buck stops with it.
We cannot shift blame from God to those who could not have done other than God designed them to do before he created them. Hitler could not have done other than that which God knew he would before God created him and birthed him on 20 April 1889 in Austria. If Hitler was the match, God is the arsonist. We don’t blame matchsticks for arson in any other mode of discourse. To do so would be absurd. Why then do we allow ourselves to employ such backward logic when talking about God??? God KNEW Hitler would slaughter 7 million people – God designed and created him anyway. At that very moment God became the arsonist. Hitler could not have not murdered millions at that point BECAUSE that is what God knew he would do before God created him. At some point we have to call out design for what it is – DESIGN! God didn’t just know of Hitler. God designed Hitler. God wrote Hitler’s life before he created the real Hitler. God is the great first cause; God is the arsonist.


I am having a hard time seeing fault with his argument.
His problem is not with creation ex nihilo, his problem is with foreknowledge. Creation ex nihilo does not necessarily imply foreknowledge nor does foreknowledge require ex nihilo.

His objection than is either that God did not foreknow the future, or that God did not create us or anything… So what is the “role” of God on his view? o_O A non-creator God? Why not just be a naturalist? I would want him to clarify his position and why he thinks his god avoids the problem of evil.

God caused free will. Free will means the potential to do evil. If God, knowing evil would be done, were to not create free will… This is in fact determinism which is what is being objected. Knowing something will happen is not the same as causing it. Not intervening, on God’s part, is allowing free will. Everyone will get their just punishment/reward in the life to come. He is attributing temporality to God, but classical Theists believe God transcends time. His “foreknowledge” is like watching a movie a second time and knowing how it’ll end.

Is your friend’s God not omniscient, omnipotent, nor a creator? How is his god any better than a super hero? Why does this god deserve worship? How does he account for the existence of the eternal material and defend against an infinite regress?

Again, i urge you and your friend to look into compatabilism, self-determined free will and the warfare model of the problem of evil.
 
Is your friend’s God not omniscient, omnipotent, nor a creator? How is his god any better than a super hero? Why does this god deserve worship? How does he account for the existence of the eternal material and defend against an infinite regress?
No, he does not believe in a God that is omnipotent in the way Christians would speak of God. His version of God is a creator like a potter is a creator: taking already existing material and molding it into something else. I guess he would say his god deserves worship because it is the most powerful being in existence known to our planet?

He is aware of the problem of infinite regress. He prefers that problem to the problems he argues against. He would likely say “better a limited god than a cruel god.”
 
No, he does not believe in a God that is omnipotent in the way Christians would speak of God. His version of God is a creator like a potter is a creator: taking already existing material and molding it into something else. I guess he would say his god deserves worship because it is the most powerful being in existence known to our planet?

He is aware of the problem of infinite regress. He prefers that problem to the problems he argues against. He would likely say “better a limited god than a cruel god.”
Understandable, but he must also have a problem with foreknowledge. So this clutz of a god does not have the power to make anything, only to form, and ended up forming evil! What a huge mistake on that god’s part. What an imperfect god. If this god is not omnipotent, omniscient, transcendent, creator, etc. what reason do we have to believe this god is all good? This god makes mistakes! This god is not God at all. He is as mythological as Chronos or Zeus. By the way, your friend has not refute creation ex nihilo. For we have good argumentation for a first cause. Can he argue for this god in a way that isnt simply an attempted refutation of the classical Theist’s God? What reasons do we have to put faith in this god?

Read Gregory Boyd’s “Satan and the Problem of Evil” as well as Aquinas’ response to the problem of evil. Different but very interesting responses.
 
Also, like the problem of regress, he must believe there is an answer to the problem he hasnt come to yet. Why is the problem evil different? Your friend is not omniscient, how does he know that there is no way that God can be all powerful and all knowing and all good and the create ex nihilo and there be a way to reconcile the problem of evil to this. I offered some speculative possibilities, which is more than can be said for the problem of infinite regress. Is your friend looking for the truth or for a theory he likes? He seems to like his theory, but i see no reason to believe his theory or ways to reconcile the problems of his theory.
 
Aquinas summed up the problem of evil like this:
“It seems that God does not exist; because if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the name God means that He is infinite goodness. If, therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but there is evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist.”

I think the key to answering this lies in:

a) free will (which other posters have discussed)

b) (According to Augustine) the nature of evil is a privation of good; like darkness is the absence of light, or cold is the absence of heat. In that sense, darkness and cold don’t actually “exist” in the ontological sense. In the same way, evil is only the absence of God.

c) somehow God can produce good, even from the greatest evil - he can turn on the light in the darkness, so to speak. Take the most evil act in all of history - the crucifixion. The creator was killed by creation, God was put to death. But through that supremely evil act, God brought about the greatest good - the redemption of the world.

The story isn’t over - we will one day be able to see what good God is bringing about. Obviously that doesn’t diminish the suffering caused by evil now on earth, and I don’t mean in any way to minimize the very awful things that happen to people; but I think we don’t have the perspective of heaven to understand it yet.

Peter Kreeft has compared suffering on earth to the feet of a fetus in the womb - it has no need for them before it is born, but unbeknownst to them, it is a preparation for the life to come. In the same way, we can’t make sense of suffering now, because it also will only make sense in the life to come.

As Teresa of Avila put it, “In light of heaven, the worst suffering on earth will be seen to be no more serious than one night in an inconvenient hotel.”
 
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