Need Help Debating an anti-Catholic!

[SAVINGRACE]

So, I’m in this online debate with an anti-Catholic and he hurled a slew of accusations against the Church at me. I formulatied his accusations into a succinct argument so you guys can help me out.

**Argument A: **
*1. The Catholic Church made an alliance with German and Italian Fascism.
2. The Catholic Church yearly celebrated Hitler’s birthday from the pulpit.
3. The Catholic Church was silent during the holocaust.
4. The Catholic Church institutionalized the rape and torture of children over 2000 years.
5. The Catholic Church criminally shuffled around pedophiles and “scam artists”.
6. The Catholic Church said condoms increase the rate of AIDS/HIV.
*7. The Catholic Church suggests that gay people should live a totally sterile life.
8. Premise #6 is Disgusting.
9. The Catholic Church had ties with fascist Spain.
10. The Catholic Church influenced the criminalization of abortion and prevention of access to divorce in Ireland.
11. The Catholic Church forced conversion of indigenous people in South America.
12. All of these things that the Catholic Church has done are evil.
13. Therefore, the Catholic Church is consistently Evil.

I let him know that logically speaking, all of his premises must be true in order to have a sound argument, even if the conclusion is valid. I am convinced a majority of these accusations are false, but I cannot address all of the false accusations by myself. You all are welcome to logically proove as many as you wish to false. I really need help, this anti-Catholic guy adamantly stands by all of these premises as true. Thanks

]Point 6

Remove Catholic doctrine from the argument. The fatal flaw in the pro-condom argument is both simple and devastating:** Condoms aren’t working to stem AIDS in Africa.**

Take for example a March 2004 article in the medical journal, Studies in Family Planning (cited by the Zenit News Agency, June 26, 2004). Titled “Condom Promotion for AIDS Prevention in the Developing World: Is It Working?,” the piece was a meta-review of the scientific literature on the question.

The results shocked condom advocates. In the article, researchers Sanny Chen and Norman Hearst noted that, “In many sub-Saharan African countries, high HIV transmission rates have continued despite high rates of condom use.” In fact, they continued, "No clear examples have emerged yet of a country that has turned back a generalized epidemic primarily by means of condom distribution."

No surprise, then, that Botswana, Zimbabwe, Kenya, and South Africa, the nations with the highest levels of condom availability, continue to have the highest rates of HIV prevalence (“The White House Initiative to Combat AIDS: Learning from Uganda,” Joseph Loconte, Executive Summary Backgrounder).

How could this be? After all, we’re told that condoms are 90% effective.

 

[Richard_White]

Every single thing that this person has said is absolutely 100% FALSE. It’s as simple as that.

May God bless you and help you to debate this person.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

So, I’m in this online debate with an anti-Catholic and he hurled a slew of accusations against the Church at me. I formulatied his accusations into a succinct argument so you guys can help me out.

**Argument A: **
*1. The Catholic Church made an alliance with German and Italian Fascism.
2. The Catholic Church yearly celebrated Hitler’s birthday from the pulpit.
3. The Catholic Church was silent during the holocaust.
4. The Catholic Church institutionalized the rape and torture of children over 2000 years.
5. The Catholic Church criminally shuffled around pedophiles and “scam artists”.
6. The Catholic Church said condoms increase the rate of AIDS/HIV.
7. The Catholic Church suggests that gay people should live a totally sterile life.
*8. Premise #6 is Disgusting.
9. The Catholic Church had ties with fascist Spain.
10. The Catholic Church influenced the criminalization of abortion and prevention of access to divorce in Ireland.
11. The Catholic Church forced conversion of indigenous people in South America.
12. All of these things that the Catholic Church has done are evil.
13. Therefore, the Catholic Church is consistently Evil.

I let him know that logically speaking, all of his premises must be true in order to have a sound argument, even if the conclusion is valid. I am convinced a majority of these accusations are false, but I cannot address all of the false accusations by myself. You all are welcome to logically proove as many as you wish to false. I really need help, this anti-Catholic guy adamantly stands by all of these premises as true. Thanks

Point 7

No the Catholic Church asks the same of gay Catholics that it asks of other Catholics. A single heterosexual Catholic person who has sex is committing the same Mortal Sin that a gay person does when they have sex with someone of the same sex.

A celibate life is not a sterile life. Buddhist monks/nuns also lead a celibate life and devote their life to prayer, meditaion, martial arts, study etc. They seek a higher plane of existence, a higher form of self discipline, a higher form of being, where they control their base desires and are not dictated to by them. An existence where they are not controlled by a desire for material things and are content with basic needs.

Priests and religious lead a celibate life. Ask him to talk with a religious or a Priest and to ask whether he/she thinks their life is “sterile”. Most Priests feel that they are given the greatest privileges amongst humans when celebrating the Mass or hearing Confessions.

 

[St_Francis]

I feel they try to downplay the molestation that went on for example. I have seen people on here downplay it before. It was a horrible unexcusable thing that shouldn’t be downplayed.

The impression given by much of the media coverage made it seems like practically every Catholic priest was involved in abusing little children. What happened was terrible enough without exxagerating what happened.

And it is very difficult to point that out without being accused of downplaying what happened.

 

[truthquester]

The Catholic Church is a very old church and have made many mistakes and I am sure that they have had to grow and mature along the way. I know for a fact there were quite a few pedophiles working as priests in Canada and the U.S. They ran an orphanage in St. John’s, NL for years and the scandal hit the newspapers in 1989, the allegations went right back to the 1950’s.

I saw a letter from a catholic friend of mine from the church and at the time and they denied everything; even used it to raise funds so that the church could hire lawyers to fight and defend against such lies, but it wasn’t a lie. Many priests were charged, the church was successfully sued and what went on there was of great shame to say the least.

I personally don’t blame the church, they didn’t know that the people they hired were self serving perverts and sexually abuse at the time was not handled well by any of the authorities. Also, people down there during that time treated the priests like they were God himself, completely unquestioning and obedient. Too much power! It was definitely a wake up call to the way things were handled

But not all of the priests were perverts, many of them were good men who were smeared and all were made to look bad. The church has since owned up and I am assuming that there are some new policies in place to prevent this kind of thing from ever happening again.

heritage.nf.ca/articles/politics/wells-government-mt-cashel.php

 

[SAVINGRACE]

So, I’m in this online debate with an anti-Catholic and he hurled a slew of accusations against the Church at me. I formulatied his accusations into a succinct argument so you guys can help me out.

**Argument A: **
1. The Catholic Church made an alliance with German and Italian Fascism.
2. The Catholic Church yearly celebrated Hitler’s birthday from the pulpit.
3. The Catholic Church was silent during the holocaust.
4. The Catholic Church institutionalized the rape and torture of children over 2000 years.
5. The Catholic Church criminally shuffled around pedophiles and “scam artists”.
6. The Catholic Church said condoms increase the rate of AIDS/HIV.
7. The Catholic Church suggests that gay people should live a totally sterile life.
8. Premise #6 is Disgusting.
9. The Catholic Church had ties with fascist Spain.
10. The Catholic Church influenced the criminalization of abortion and prevention of access to divorce in Ireland.
11. The Catholic Church forced conversion of indigenous people in South America.
12. All of these things that the Catholic Church has done are evil.
13. Therefore, the Catholic Church is consistently Evil.

I let him know that logically speaking, all of his premises must be true in order to have a sound argument, even if the conclusion is valid. I am convinced a majority of these accusations are false, but I cannot address all of the false accusations by myself. You all are welcome to logically proove as many as you wish to false. I really need help, this anti-Catholic guy adamantly stands by all of these premises as true. Thanks

Point 10.

Yes and we have no problem with that. We view the killing of millions of babies in the womb as evil. The CC allows divorce in the case of domestic violence etc. It also encourages couselling and other forms of assistance which may keep the family together.

A divorce is a legal State process. It has nothing to do with the Church.

The Church processes annulments for some cases such as continued domestic violence etc. People are not expected to stay in marriages such as these.

Point 12 & 13.

White people stole land over the centuries from non-whites Asians, Pacific Islanders and Africans. Landed, planted a flag and claimed it for their King/Queen.

White people owned slaves.

White people started both World Wars.

White people can’t dance.

Does that mean all white people are evil?

 

[SAVINGRACE]

His arguments are flawed and simplistic. Don’t waste “flawed premise” arguments on this person.

You will find when you counter with ‘facts’ which are adequately supported and request for evidence/proof from a reputable source from them to support their argument, they will change tact and move the baseline, they won’t counter argue your point, they will ignore it and simply spew out another accusation.

Most haven’t bothered to research the topic as some of these accusations are as old as time. They read it somewhere or hear it from someone and automatically believe it without questioning. They are just regurgitating it without checking the source. Lazy academics.

 

[bigblu]

The impression given by much of the media coverage made it seems like practically every Catholic priest was involved in abusing little children. What happened was terrible enough without exxagerating what happened.

And it is very difficult to point that out without being accused of downplaying what happened.

There was over 4900 cases in america alone. Look it up you have google. The media did not exaggerate anything. That number is huge!!! And that number was just the cases between the 1950’s and 2006

 

[SAVINGRACE]

There was over 4900 cases in america alone. Look it up you have google. The media did not exaggerate anything. That number is huge!!! And that number was just the cases between the 1950’s and 2006

So what is your argument? Every Priest is a pedophile? I see you managed to avoid answering the question posed to you by DMelosi regarding showing a post on CAF where a Catholic has sought to minimise the child abuse scandal.

"The three major insurance companies for Protestant Churches in America say they typically receive** 260 reports each year of minors being sexually abused by Protestant clergy, staff, or other church-related relationships**.

That doesn’t include Protestant communities who are insured by other companies. So there are more cases to add to that 260per year.

In light of the sex abuse scandal that rocked the Catholic Church beginning five years ago, religious and victims’ rights organizations have been seeking this type of data for years. It has been hard to come by since Protestant Churches are more de-centralized than the Catholic Church.

Responding to heavy media scrutiny, the Catholic Church has reported that since 1950, about **228 “credible accusations” per year against Catholic clerics **have been reported. The fact that this number includes all credible accusations, not just those that have involved insurance companies, and still is less than the number of cases in Protestant churches reported by just three insurance companies, should be making front page of The New York Times and the network evening news. It’s not."

Considering that Catholics number 1.5billion, there appears to be more child molestation occurring in Protestant churches but it is rarely reported on. Does that mean all Protestant pastors/ministers/deacons are pedophiles? Of course not.

foxnews.com/story/2007/06/24/sexual-abuse-minors-in-protestant-churches.html

 

[Gorgias]

There was over 4900 cases in america alone. Look it up you have google. The media did not exaggerate anything. That number is huge!!! And that number was just the cases between the 1950’s and 2006

Yep, 4900+ cases is horrible! Yet, IIRC, the number of abusers is somewhere on the order of <4% of all priests in that timeframe. Are you saying that what 96% of priests didn’t do is characteristic of what priests do? That doesn’t make sense. Otherwise, laying this at the feet of the Catholic priesthood is inappropriate. (As I see the increasing number of news reports about teachers who abuse their students, I see no accusations that the fault is with the vocation of ‘teacher’ or that school boards or the Department of Education are at fault for the actions of these teachers. Yet, this was precisely the accusation that was leveled against the Church. Why?)

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you. What, precisely, would be an example of ‘downplaying’ this tragedy? On the other hand, is pointing out a mischaracterization of the priesthood an example of ‘downplaying’ to you? If so, then why?

 

[Hawkiz]

There was over 4900 cases in america alone. Look it up you have google. The media did not exaggerate anything. That number is huge!!! And that number was just the cases between the 1950’s and 2006

Using Google, the Washington Post reported in 2006 that over a 5 year period, there were over 2,500 public school teachers in the United States alone that were convicted of child sexual abuse…does this mean that the public school system in America is inherently evil? Or do you chalk that up to the personal responsibility of the individuals? This is only over a period of 5 (five) years! Some of these teachers were allowed to continue to teach for many years after the first allegations! Did the public school system sweep these under the rug? Did the media report these abuses with vigor? Why did the administrations allow these teachers to continue to operate?
There are evil people everywhere. In the Baptist Churches, Lutheran Churches, non-denominational churches…everywhere. This makes those individuals evil, not the systems. Within other faith groups, it is often much more difficult to track and prosecute because the hierarchy doesn’t exist in the same way that it does in the Catholic Church. Please direct your (justified) anger to its proper place: towards the individuals who perpetrate such evils, and not towards the systems, unless you are prepared to denounce ALL religious systems as well as the public schools, politicians, lawyers, doctors, dentists, grocers, construction workers, sales people, etc. etc. etc.

Peace in Christ

 

[bigblu]

Using Google, the Washington Post reported in 2006 that over a 5 year period, there were over 2,500 public school teachers in the United States alone that were convicted of child sexual abuse…does this mean that the public school system in America is inherently evil? Or do you chalk that up to the personal responsibility of the individuals? This is only over a period of 5 (five) years! Some of these teachers were allowed to continue to teach for many years after the first allegations! Did the public school system sweep these under the rug? Did the media report these abuses with vigor? Why did the administrations allow these teachers to continue to operate?
There are evil people everywhere. In the Baptist Churches, Lutheran Churches, non-denominational churches…everywhere. This makes those individuals evil, not the systems. Within other faith groups, it is often much more difficult to track and prosecute because the hierarchy doesn’t exist in the same way that it does in the Catholic Church. Please direct your (justified) anger to its proper place: towards the individuals who perpetrate such evils, and not towards the systems, unless you are prepared to denounce ALL religious systems as well as the public schools, politicians, lawyers, doctors, dentists, grocers, construction workers, sales people, etc. etc. etc.

Peace in Christ

Yes, you can point out that bad goes on everywhere in the world. The difference is that Bishops and Priests are supposed to be representative of what you all say is the “one True Church” that is supposed to be protected by the Holy Spirit from Error in it’s teachings and are in effect infallible. When the Representative of a supposedly Infallible one true moral organization are the very ones doing these horrendous acts, then like it or not, the representatives of the authority of morality are going to be held to a higher standard than the rest of the world. And such a large number of authority figures amongst the Catholic Church who have been in that scandal. It makes me believe that the Catholic Church is not the true authority of what’s moral since such a number of their earthly representation has done such bad. I don’t hold any of those other people’s organizations or protestant teachers as infallible either. If you don’t get what I am saying here, you never will.

I am not anti-catholic for say. I just believe many of their teaching are wrong.

 

[cena]

Yes, you can point out that bad goes on everywhere in the world. The difference is that Bishops and Priests are supposed to be representative of what you all say is the “one True Church” that is supposed to be protected by the Holy Spirit from Error in it’s teachings and are in effect infallible. When the Representative of a supposedly Infallible one true moral organization are the very ones doing these horrendous acts, then like it or not, the representatives of the authority of morality are going to be held to a higher standard than the rest of the world. And such a large number of authority figures amongst the Catholic Church who have been in that scandal. It makes me believe that the Catholic Church is not the true authority of what’s moral since such a number of their earthly representation has done such bad. I don’t hold any of those other people’s organizations or protestant teachers as infallible either. If you don’t get what I am saying here, you never will.

I am not anti-catholic for say. I just believe many of their teaching are wrong.

What about the Protestants who have had higher rates? Peter, Paul, Thomas, and the rest of the apostles? They were not perfect

 

[bigblu]

What about the Protestants who have had higher rates? Peter, Paul, Thomas, and the rest of the apostles? They were not perfect

Most protestants don’t claim infallibility of every teaching.

 

[dmelosi]

Most protestants don’t claim infallibility of every teaching.

I don’t know of any church that claims infallibility of every teaching.

 

[bigblu]

I don’t know of any church that claims infallibility of every teaching.

The difference I see is with catholics they submit to the authority of the Church. The earthly representation of the church they submit to is preists and bishops. As a noncatholic christian I don’t submit to any worldly authority on morals.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

The difference I see is with catholics they submit to the authority of the Church. The earthly representation of the church they submit to is preists and bishops. As a noncatholic christian I don’t submit to any worldly authority on morals.

The difference is only the Catholic Church possesses the authority to interpret Scripture infallibly and correctly without confusion nor fear of changing Doctrine to suit the times.

You are your own Pope. Just as every Protestant minister/pastor/council of elders are their Pope.

Scripture tells us that ALL interpretations of Scripture are guided by the Holy Spirit. If so, why is every Protestant group teaching different interpretations of Sacred Scripture? Why is there so much confusion between them and why do they change their Doctrines. Was the Holy Spirit incorrect in the first interpretation?

The Holy Spirit can never be the author of confusion.

The Apostles taught infallibly. They were human. They sinned. It didn’t take authority away from the Teaching or the Church.

 

[stewstew03]

…
As a noncatholic christian I don’t submit to any worldly authority on morals.

The Church’s authority doesn’t come from this world – it is from Christ alone.

 

[Sunbreak]

So, I’m in this online debate with an anti-Catholic and he hurled a slew of accusations against the Church at me. I formulatied his accusations into a succinct argument so you guys can help me out.

**Argument A: **
1. The Catholic Church made an alliance with German and Italian Fascism.
I researched this minimally, but it seems that this was done as a counter measure to seek allies against the Nazis.
2. The Catholic Church yearly celebrated Hitler’s birthday from the pulpit.
There was one cardinal who sent greetings in the name of all German bishops (even though most didn’t agree with his stance) one year. There was an archbishop who had avoided attending an invitation to Hitler’s birthday for several years on the Church’s recommendation to take a vacation instead during that time so as not to be available. I didn’t research fully how he came to attend in 1939, so that should be researched.
3. The Catholic Church was silent during the holocaust.
The Catholic Church was in a difficult situation during that time. Many priests and religious had been arrested and killed in Poland and other countries. In fact, the first people sent to German camps in Poland were not the Jews but the priests, religious, intellectuals, etc. In fact, the Catholic Church did speak out against race annihilation. However, they had to walk a fine line in dealing with the Nazis because of the killing of priests and religious and takeover of monasteries, etc. by the Nazis.
4. The Catholic Church institutionalized the rape and torture of children over 2000 years.
First of all, we don’t know have information about what happened in the early years of the church or even two hundred years ago. Secondly, there was not the same understanding about how sexual abuse affected children as there is today and there was the belief that the predators could be treated. This is too large a topic to get into without a lot of research, but the Church was no better or worse than how these things were handled in the larger community.
5. The Catholic Church criminally shuffled around pedophiles and “scam artists”.
Again, this goes with number 4 and the intent of reassigning priests was actually to protect the children in the problem location, give the priest another chance (because they thought this was something that could easily be solved). There was no criminal intent, just poor judgement and lack of understanding of the magnitude of the problem.
6. The Catholic Church said condoms increase the rate of AIDS/HIV.
In a way, yes they probably did because the secular view is that condoms prevent spreading AIDS/HIV but condoms are not foolproof and so people who are using them frequently thinking it was 100% effective could actually be spreading the disease instead.
7. The Catholic Church suggests that gay people should live a totally sterile life.
Since when is life sterile if you don’t have a sex partner?
8. Premise #6 is Disgusting.
Personal opinion of the person saying it.
9. The Catholic Church had ties with fascist Spain.
Yes, it did. However, Spain had come out of Civil War at a time when World War 2 was starting. Franco allowed the Church to take control of schools and generally declared Catholicism the religion of Spain, although he was probably using it to facilitate his own purposes. These were not simple times with simple answers.
10. The Catholic Church influenced the criminalization of abortion and prevention of access to divorce in Ireland.
Yes, they did. So what’s wrong with trying to prevent things that are unhealthy?
11. The Catholic Church forced conversion of indigenous people in South America.
Probably there was some forced conversion by some people. I would think it was more of a lack of understanding of cultural differences. The invading Spaniards would have entered these countries first and then brought the priests with them later. It wasn’t unusual for a conqueror to impose whatever religion it had on the conquered people Does it make it right, probably not, but the Spaniards in generals probably throught they were doing the right thing.Religion would not have been the only thing imposed on the people. Do you think that the people in Brazil originally spoke Portuguese or that the bulk of South America spoke Spanish? No, these things were also imposed.
12. All of these things that the Catholic Church has done are evil.
Another personal opinion and interpretation of the person saying it.
13. Therefore, the Catholic Church is consistently Evil.
Faulty logic. If I call the sun blue (faulty assumption) then I say therefore everything the sun shines on is blue and have reached a faulty conclusion based on a faulty assumption.
I let him know that logically speaking, all of his premises must be true in order to have a sound argument, even if the conclusion is valid. I am convinced a majority of these accusations are false, but I cannot address all of the false accusations by myself. You all are welcome to logically proove as many as you wish to false. I really need help, this anti-Catholic guy adamantly stands by all of these premises as true. Thanks

 

[ShanPO]

Yes, you can point out that bad goes on everywhere in the world. The difference is that Bishops and Priests are supposed to be representative of what you all say is the “one True Church” that is supposed to be protected by the Holy Spirit from Error in it’s teachings and are in effect infallible. When the Representative of a supposedly Infallible one true moral organization are the very ones doing these horrendous acts, then like it or not, the representatives of the authority of morality are going to be held to a higher standard than the rest of the world. And such a large number of authority figures amongst the Catholic Church who have been in that scandal. It makes me believe that the Catholic Church is not the true authority of what’s moral since such a number of their earthly representation has done such bad. I don’t hold any of those other people’s organizations or protestant teachers as infallible either. If you don’t get what I am saying here, you never will.

I am not anti-catholic for say. I just believe many of their teaching are wrong.

I feel like you’re missing the point here, and I think it comes from an ignorance of the Catholic Church. Are you saying that since those put in positions of authority in the Church have committed sins, that the Church is therefore bad? What others have been telling you is that just because a person does wrong, even though that person is a part of the organization, they don’t necessarily represent the organization in it’s entirety.

It would be like one teacher who molests a student doesn’t represent the whole school system’s values. Shouldn’t teachers be held to a higher standard? Just because one priest molests a child (and I know it’s been more than one) that doesn’t change the teachings of the Church one bit. The Church teaches child abuse is wrong, and no matter what evil men commit, the Church will always teach that.

It seems to me you’re trying to say the Catholic Church says Her priests are to be perfect. I’ve met a lot of them, even studied to be one, and I can promise you, I’ve not met a perfect one yet.