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The_Wizard
Guest
Read the book Rapture, The End-Times Error That Leaves the Bible Behind by David B. Currie.
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Karen107
Guest
pablope, pardon me for saying this but why, if you are a Catholic, are you linking to a protestant theologian’s website?
Do you not know that at the end of time there will be a resurrection of the body of Christ? This is something that we profess in our faith.
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Karen107
Guest
What worries me about the rapture theory is that people who believe in the rapture forget that Jesus is, was and always will be with us…and people alter their own futures and the futures of others because of it…Kind of like getting tomorrows news today… Not a good idea…
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TimothyH
Guest
(Edited) [A]ll you really need to be confident that the rapture is wrong is to look at the Bible.
Some use Luke 17 to prove the rapture.
*As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of man. They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise as it was in the days of Lot – they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom fire and sulphur rained from heaven and destroyed them all – so will it be on the day when the Son of man is revealed. On that day, let him who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away; and likewise let him who is in the field not turn back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together; one will be taken and the other left." (Luke 17:26-35)*The rapture says that the good guys will get taken. The problem is that in the days of Noah the righteous were left behind and the bad guys were taken away by the flood. Righteous Noah was “Left behind”, exactly the opposite of what the rapture says.
Some use 1 Thessalonians 4 to prove the rapture.
*For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)*The idea is that the righteous will meet Jesus and be taken to Heaven. The rapture says that Jesus will take those who go out to meet him to Heaven. The problem is that going out to meet someone in the Bible was a way to greet them as an honored guest. The honored guest never took away those who met him but stayed as a guest.
*Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and did obeisance and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent. (Exodus 18:7)
So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!” (John 12:13)*The rapture says that the righteous will go out to meet Jesus and that Jesus will take them away, but that is 100% opposite of what the Bible says. The Bible says that the righteous will meet Jesus but that they will escort him back to earth as an honored guest where he will live with us.
*And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; (Revelation 21:2-3)*Jesus will come from heaven and dwell with us. The rapture has it the other way around.
The rapture says that Jesus comes again to take the righteous with him, hangs a U-turn and goes back to heaven, and then returns a third time at the end of time. Nowhere in the Bible however does it talk about Jesus returning twice, but only once at the end of time.
Anyone who reads the whole Bible can very easily see that the rapture has it exactly 100% opposite of what Scripture really says.
-Tim-
Some use Luke 17 to prove the rapture.
*As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of man. They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise as it was in the days of Lot – they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom fire and sulphur rained from heaven and destroyed them all – so will it be on the day when the Son of man is revealed. On that day, let him who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away; and likewise let him who is in the field not turn back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together; one will be taken and the other left." (Luke 17:26-35)*The rapture says that the good guys will get taken. The problem is that in the days of Noah the righteous were left behind and the bad guys were taken away by the flood. Righteous Noah was “Left behind”, exactly the opposite of what the rapture says.
Some use 1 Thessalonians 4 to prove the rapture.
*For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)*The idea is that the righteous will meet Jesus and be taken to Heaven. The rapture says that Jesus will take those who go out to meet him to Heaven. The problem is that going out to meet someone in the Bible was a way to greet them as an honored guest. The honored guest never took away those who met him but stayed as a guest.
*Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and did obeisance and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent. (Exodus 18:7)
So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying, “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!” (John 12:13)*The rapture says that the righteous will go out to meet Jesus and that Jesus will take them away, but that is 100% opposite of what the Bible says. The Bible says that the righteous will meet Jesus but that they will escort him back to earth as an honored guest where he will live with us.
*And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; (Revelation 21:2-3)*Jesus will come from heaven and dwell with us. The rapture has it the other way around.
The rapture says that Jesus comes again to take the righteous with him, hangs a U-turn and goes back to heaven, and then returns a third time at the end of time. Nowhere in the Bible however does it talk about Jesus returning twice, but only once at the end of time.
Anyone who reads the whole Bible can very easily see that the rapture has it exactly 100% opposite of what Scripture really says.
-Tim-
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Hockeygurl
Guest
It’s also important to note that throughout the bible, GOD never takes people away from the threat. GOD helped them THROUGH it.
- The 3 in the furnace
- Daniel in the lions den
- Noah and the flood.
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pablope
Guest
Hi, Karen,
Well, first, not all protestants believe the same things. That protestant minister’s belief on the rapture is the same as catholics, that is why i linked it. The OP’s friends may be more receptive with an explanation coming from a noncatholic…which agrees with the CC teaching on the Rapture…
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Karen107
Guest
With all sincerity I don’t believe that all he wrote is in agreement with Catholic teaching. I understand what you are trying to share but the problem there is that the Catholic Church doesn’t teach the rapture. We know there will come a time when life on earth will cease but that is not up to us to decide and at that time Jesus will return for the glorified body of Christ. That is left to the Father alone to know.Hi, Karen,
Well, first, not all protestants believe the same things. That protestant minister’s belief on the rapture is the same as catholics, that is why i linked it. The OP’s friends may be more receptive with an explanation coming from a noncatholic…which agrees with the CC teaching on the Rapture…
.
catholic.com/quickquestions/do-catholics-believe-in-the-rapture
ewtn.com/expert/answers/endtimes.htm
Peace.
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Karen107
Guest
And what is our way through? By being made a child of God in our baptism.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered[d] for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you[e] to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, 20 who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him.
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Karen107
Guest
[/INDENT]The rapture says that the righteous will go out to meet Jesus and that Jesus will take them away, but that is 100% opposite of what the Bible says. The Bible says that the righteous will meet Jesus but that they will escort him back to earth as an honored guest where he will live with us.
*And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; (Revelation 21:2-3)*Jesus will come from heaven and dwell with us. The rapture has it the other way around.
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Tim you have some good things to day however Jesus does come many times and Jesus does dwell with us in many ways… He came to the disciples after the resurrection and at the Pentecost, and we receive Jesus each ‘Lords Day’ when He comes at the mass at the eucharistic feast and when Gods word is read, and when two or more are gathered in His name He is present among them, etc…Jesus is with us always…;When doubting Thomas touched Jesus then believed Jesus said:
John 20:29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have come to believe.”
The Trinity is a mysterious thing. Jesus is not separate from the Holy Spirit but part of the One Triune God so Jesus has made a dwelling with us…
Matthew 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely** I am with you**** always,** to the very end of the age."
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TimothyH
Guest
We are not talking about the sacramental presence of Jesus or his real presence in the Eucharist. We are not talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or the Holy Spirit’s presence in the Church.
We are talking about the parousia - Jesus’ second coming in the flesh.
The rapture says that Jesus will return twice, once to rapture everyone and again at the end of time. This however, is not Biblical. There will be only one parousia at the end of time when Jesus will dwell with us bodily.
Not only is the rapture not in the Bible, but it is 180 degrees out of phase with what the Bible actually says.
-Tim-
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Karen107
Guest
Tim, the parousia is when we get a glimpse of heaven at the mass when we take of the body and blood of Christ because Christ is present in Gods heavenly Kingdom… We can’t get any closer to Jesus than that!.
The scriptures do not say Jesus will return twice as you say… you’re confusing the 1,000 years prophesy… A thousand years in hebrews means a long time. We are in that Long time when Christ is reigning on earth. He is my King isn’t He yours? Do you feel His presence?
Than at the end of time those who are already in heaven (the departed souls), will join those remaining faithful (left on earth) at the time and meet with Jesus in the air… the air being a term for something which cannot be explained easily, the supernatural Kingdom of God to form one body of Christ which will be glorified (perfected) and handed over to the Father and then we will finally be home… then the book of revelation talks of a new heaven and earth…
I copied from your quote.
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
Does any of that say that Jesus will become a human again? Yes Christ dwells with us, whereever the Holy Sprint is all of God is there including Jesus. So Jesus has made a dwelling with us already, with us and IN us, and when we join our brothers and sisters in heaven we will be one Body of Christ which will be glorified at last by Jesus who gives us His mercy and His love.
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TimothyH
Guest
Mass is not the parousia. The parousia is the second coming of Jesus when he returns in the flesh at the end of time for the general judgment of all.
And Karen, with all due respact, I am not confused about anything. You did not read my post carefully enough. I did not claim that the scriptures say that Jesus will return twice. On the contrary, I have defended that the scriptures say he returns once. I agree with you that we are in the thousand year reign right now.
It is difficult to have a conversation with someone who believes the other person is confused when in reality they have not listened.
-Tim-
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Kay_Cee
Guest
I second this.
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Karen107
Guest
Tim it was not me but you who spoke of the rapture in your initial quote and with all due respect the parousia does have to do with the mystery of the Eucharist or the Supper of the Lamb which happens at every mass. Jesus comes and we eat of His flesh and drink of His blood!
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Karen107
Guest
Tim have you read what I wrote? It will be us who who be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the coming of man when we see the fullness of Gods glory when there is a new heaven and earth. Until then we see things in part especially at the mass.
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Prayer_Warrior
Guest
From the Catechism:
The Parousia is a one time event that occurs with the Second Coming of Christ. The Church always refers to it as a “day”-- the last day, the day of the Lord, or the day of Parousia. Our point on this thread is to help the OP debunk the notion of a pre-tribulation rapture. That is the idea that all of the true Christians will be caught up with the Lord into heaven and then will begin seven years of tribulation and then the 1000 year reign.
Respectfully, I think it takes the thread off topic to discuss the ongoing presence of Christ in the Eucharist or talk about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We Catholics can certainly agree that the Lord allows us to “see through a mirror darkly” and we have a glimpse of heaven in the Mass. But that is not the one time event of the Parousia. If you want to talk about the relationship of the Mass and the Parousia, it would be appropriate to open a new thread.
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Gorgias
Guest
Karen,
Are you, perhaps, conflating the terms ‘parousia’ and ‘eschaton’? Yes, the Mass is a glimpse of the Lord’s Supper taking place in eternity and which we will experience fully in the new heavens and new earth (i.e., the eschaton); yet, it is not the ‘second coming of Christ’ (the parousia).
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Gorgias
Guest
Actually the ‘Jesus returns twice’ idea doesn’t belong to all rapture theologies, but only the notion of a pre-tribulation rapture. If I recall correctly, those who believe in a post-trib rapture don’t have this notion of a ‘private return’ and a ‘public return’.
Actually, the word ‘rapture’ is in the Bible; it’s just that the theology that’s normally called ‘the rapture’ is not.
(In Latin, the word in 1 Thess 4:16 for “(we) will be swept up” is rapiemur, from which we get the word ‘rapture’.)
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Karen107
Guest
I’d like to refer to this by Scott Hahn…I believe he understands the Parousia the same way I do…
emmausroad.org/Samples/927_Sample%20Chapter.pdf
Opening Presence
The early Christians also spoke of the Real Presence in terms of crisis, but a different sort of crisis. They spoke of the Real Presence in the language of apocalypse—the Second Coming, the consummation of history, the end of the world. Indeed, in the works of the Church Fathers and in the earliest liturgies, “Eucharist” and “second coming” are often treated as equivalent terms, showing the close link between the two meanings of the “coming” of Christ. The Eucharist is the awaited parousia, the coming of Christ, exactly as Jesus Himself promised it would be, exactly as Saint Paul described it, exactly as Saint John saw it “in the Spirit on the Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10).
The Eucharist is the parousia. I have given many lectures on this subject since 1999, when I published The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth. In that book, I examined the Book of Revelation in light of the liturgies of the Church and of Israel, and I examined the Church’s Mass in light of the biblical Apocalypse. Most of my readers and listeners were aware that the Book of Revelation had something to say about the coming of Jesus at the end of the world. Few knew, however, that the Book of Revelation had anything to say about Jesus’ coming in the Eucharist.
The idea seems alien to faithful churchgoers in the twenty-first century. Yet it was commonplace to Christians of the first, second, and third centuries; and, to scholars of history—whether
25Catholic or not—the notion appears so pervasive as to be obvious. The great historical theologian Jaroslav Pelikan, writing as a Lutheran, observed of the early Church: “The coming of Christ was ‘already’ and ‘not yet’: he had come already—in the incarnation, and on the basis of the incarnation would come in the Eucharist; he had come already in the Eucharist, **and would come at the last in the new cup that he would drink with them in his Father’s kingdom.”**3
Though a final parousia will one day come, the Eucharist is the parousia here and now. Anglican scholar Gregory Dix wrote that this notion was “universal” by the third century, and probably long before, since he adds that there are no exceptions to this rule: “[N]o pre-Nicene author Eastern or Western whose Eucharistic doctrine is at all fully stated” holds a different view.4
Consider just two examples. The ancient Jerusalem liturgy of Saint James announces: “Let all mortal flesh be silent, and stand with fear and trembling, and meditate nothing earthly within itself: for the King of kings and Lord of lords, Christ our God, comes forward.”5 The Egyptian liturgy of Saint Sarapion proclaims: “This sacrifice is full of your glory.”6 Similar passages can be found in the liturgies of Saint Mark, Saint Hippolytus, the Apostolic Constitutions, Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Cyril of Alexandria, as well as the Roman Canon.
I’m going what I know and have learned and have experienced. If others can’t see it than they cant but I know Jesus was, is with us and will always be with us and is constantly transforming us until we will be glorified as one body of Christ in Union with Christ as He has always been in union with us through the mass but many don’t believe until they will see Jesus face to face…The supper of the Lamb is what we participate in (the body of Christ)… It will keep being the same unfinished continual Lords Supper (Scott Hahn calls it the re- presentation of the sacrifice) until the end of time when there is a resurrection of the body of Christ and Jesus will drink of the fruit of the vine with us…
I don’t take lightly the words of Our Savior that ‘He IS the Resurrection’ and the life… John 11:25…Jesus is everywhere but most especially in the Eucharist and when we take of His body and blood Jesus consumes us and that’s what’s going on at the Supper of the Lamb at every mass until the end of time when we will be changed and see Jesus as He really is and He will drink of the wine with us. Matthew 26:29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."
Thats how I see it… I may be wrong so shoot me down but I don’t think I am… I believe I am ‘In Christ’… I hope I’m not the only one getting this…God bless…
emmausroad.org/Samples/927_Sample%20Chapter.pdf
Opening Presence
The early Christians also spoke of the Real Presence in terms of crisis, but a different sort of crisis. They spoke of the Real Presence in the language of apocalypse—the Second Coming, the consummation of history, the end of the world. Indeed, in the works of the Church Fathers and in the earliest liturgies, “Eucharist” and “second coming” are often treated as equivalent terms, showing the close link between the two meanings of the “coming” of Christ. The Eucharist is the awaited parousia, the coming of Christ, exactly as Jesus Himself promised it would be, exactly as Saint Paul described it, exactly as Saint John saw it “in the Spirit on the Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10).
The Eucharist is the parousia. I have given many lectures on this subject since 1999, when I published The Lamb’s Supper: The Mass as Heaven on Earth. In that book, I examined the Book of Revelation in light of the liturgies of the Church and of Israel, and I examined the Church’s Mass in light of the biblical Apocalypse. Most of my readers and listeners were aware that the Book of Revelation had something to say about the coming of Jesus at the end of the world. Few knew, however, that the Book of Revelation had anything to say about Jesus’ coming in the Eucharist.
The idea seems alien to faithful churchgoers in the twenty-first century. Yet it was commonplace to Christians of the first, second, and third centuries; and, to scholars of history—whether
25Catholic or not—the notion appears so pervasive as to be obvious. The great historical theologian Jaroslav Pelikan, writing as a Lutheran, observed of the early Church: “The coming of Christ was ‘already’ and ‘not yet’: he had come already—in the incarnation, and on the basis of the incarnation would come in the Eucharist; he had come already in the Eucharist, **and would come at the last in the new cup that he would drink with them in his Father’s kingdom.”**3
Though a final parousia will one day come, the Eucharist is the parousia here and now. Anglican scholar Gregory Dix wrote that this notion was “universal” by the third century, and probably long before, since he adds that there are no exceptions to this rule: “[N]o pre-Nicene author Eastern or Western whose Eucharistic doctrine is at all fully stated” holds a different view.4
Consider just two examples. The ancient Jerusalem liturgy of Saint James announces: “Let all mortal flesh be silent, and stand with fear and trembling, and meditate nothing earthly within itself: for the King of kings and Lord of lords, Christ our God, comes forward.”5 The Egyptian liturgy of Saint Sarapion proclaims: “This sacrifice is full of your glory.”6 Similar passages can be found in the liturgies of Saint Mark, Saint Hippolytus, the Apostolic Constitutions, Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Cyril of Alexandria, as well as the Roman Canon.
I’m going what I know and have learned and have experienced. If others can’t see it than they cant but I know Jesus was, is with us and will always be with us and is constantly transforming us until we will be glorified as one body of Christ in Union with Christ as He has always been in union with us through the mass but many don’t believe until they will see Jesus face to face…The supper of the Lamb is what we participate in (the body of Christ)… It will keep being the same unfinished continual Lords Supper (Scott Hahn calls it the re- presentation of the sacrifice) until the end of time when there is a resurrection of the body of Christ and Jesus will drink of the fruit of the vine with us…
I don’t take lightly the words of Our Savior that ‘He IS the Resurrection’ and the life… John 11:25…Jesus is everywhere but most especially in the Eucharist and when we take of His body and blood Jesus consumes us and that’s what’s going on at the Supper of the Lamb at every mass until the end of time when we will be changed and see Jesus as He really is and He will drink of the wine with us. Matthew 26:29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom."
Thats how I see it… I may be wrong so shoot me down but I don’t think I am… I believe I am ‘In Christ’… I hope I’m not the only one getting this…God bless…
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Gorgias
Guest
Having read your quote, I think that there’s a little additional nuance that’s needed to resolve the dispute…
Aah… and there you have it! In Greek, ‘parousia’ takes on the meaning of ‘being present’; an official visit by a king was a parousia. Therefore, in Christianity, the term took on a meaning all its own – not just a ‘presence’ of Jesus, but His second coming at the end of time. And so, to take on Hahn’s idea here, I think it’s fair to say that the Eucharist is a parousia (that is, a ‘presence’), but the second coming is the Parousia.
So, if you mean ‘parousia’ as the ‘true presence of Christ among us today, sacramentally’, you’re right. But if you mean it in the sense that it’s being used in this thread, in the context of rapture theology, then no, I think you’re conflating the meanings of the word in a way that doesn’t work well…
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