need help debunking the rapture

[Karen107]

Having read your quote, I think that there’s a little additional nuance that’s needed to resolve the dispute…

Aah… and there you have it! In Greek, ‘parousia’ takes on the meaning of ‘being present’; an official visit by a king was a parousia. Therefore, in Christianity, the term took on a meaning all its own – not just a ‘presence’ of Jesus, but His second coming at the end of time. And so, to take on Hahn’s idea here, I think it’s fair to say that the Eucharist is a parousia (that is, a ‘presence’), but the second coming is the Parousia.

So, if you mean ‘parousia’ as the ‘true presence of Christ among us today, sacramentally’, you’re right. But if you mean it in the sense that it’s being used in this thread, in the context of rapture theology, then no, I think you’re conflating the meanings of the word in a way that doesn’t work well…

But I think it does have to do with end times. It’s the Eucharist which will protect us in end times because Jesus will always be present to us.

So let me ask you this. Does Jesus just go away and then come back at the end? That would mean that at one point Jesus leaves us. Jesus said He will be ALWAYS with us. Even through the tribulations. I was taught that in end times, just for a short time, Satan will be released and make havoc on the world and Christians will not be spared. So as I said in my first quote here, it is important to us to stay close to God and **keep receiving the Eucharist **and that goes along with continuing to take it until Jesus takes it new with us in heaven. Does any of that mean that Jesus will leave us and come back? No trust that Jesus will NEVER leave us!

Satan’s Doom
Revelation 20:
7 When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. 9 They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven and consumed them. 10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So then there will be a second death and then we will live in peace without Satan or sin bothering us and then begins the final judgement. There is no time where Christ becomes human and reigns on earth as we know it. Heaven and Earth will pass away but Jesus words will never pass away.

and then straight from the mouth of God:

Rev 22: 6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true, for the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”

7 “See, I am coming soon!** Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!**

‘I am coming soon’ is what we must always believe… No matter if it is today or tomorrow, or in end times we must stay steadfast in our faith and keep believing that Jesus will come!

Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near.

 

[Shaolen]

Thanks for everyone who helped with this. So far he hasn’t replied again after I mentioned some of the things you guys brought up. If he does ill let you guys know. I pray that this has opened his eyes to the truth behind the falseness of the rapture

 

[TimothyH]

Actually the ‘Jesus returns twice’ idea doesn’t belong to all rapture theologies, but only the notion of a pre-tribulation rapture. If I recall correctly, those who believe in a post-trib rapture don’t have this notion of a ‘private return’ and a ‘public return’.

Actually, the word ‘rapture’ is in the Bible; it’s just that the theology that’s normally called ‘the rapture’ is not.

(In Latin, the word in 1 Thess 4:16 for “(we) will be swept up” is rapiemur, from which we get the word ‘rapture’.)

I was not aware of etymology. Thanks for the info.

My point is that the idea of Jesus returning to take away the righteous while unbelievers and sinners get “Left behind” is not Biblical. Pre-trib or post-trib, it doesn’t matter because it is exactly the opposite of what the Bible says. The Bible says that the righteous get “Left behind.” The Bible says that the bad guys all get taken away.

-Tim-

 

[Telstar]

But I think it does have to do with end times. It’s the Eucharist which will protect us in end times because Jesus will always be present to us.

So let me ask you this. Does Jesus just go away and then come back at the end? That would mean that at one point Jesus leaves us. Jesus said He will be ALWAYS with us. Even through the tribulations.

First of all, Karen, no offense, but I think you’re a little confused about the subject of this thread, and many people’s posts. (Reading your posts in it reminds me of Emily Litella’s editorials on the original SNL.) The OP is looking for help in responding to the Protestant view of the “rapture”, but from a Catholic perspective, so he can better respond to their claims. I think most people that have responded have given very good answers. You seem to think that when they’re referring to the Protestant view, that they believe those things, themselves, but they really don’t.

You do realize that Jesus no longer walks the earth at this point in time, correct? Yes, we all know that He will always be with us, spiritually (and, physically, in the Eucharist), but for now, He (with His actual human body) is in Heaven. So yes, Jesus did actually ‘leave us’ when He Ascended into Heaven, but in His bodily form. When people talk about Jesus’ Second Coming, we refer to His returning at the end of time, when every soul will be resurrected and judged by Him. After the final judgement, He will reign on the new earth, forever.

I was taught that in end times, just for a short time, Satan will be released and make havoc on the world and Christians will not be spared. So as I said in my first quote here, it is important to us to stay close to God and **keep receiving the Eucharist **and that goes along with continuing to take it until Jesus takes it new with us in heaven. Does any of that mean that Jesus will leave us and come back? No trust that Jesus will NEVER leave us!

As I said above, His actual human body is in Heaven, not on the earth. But, He will return in The Parousia, when He will Judge the living and the dead.

Satan’s Doom
Revelation 20:
7 When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. 9 They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven and consumed them. 10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So then there will be a second death and then we will live in peace without Satan or sin bothering us and then begins the final judgement.

We are living in the ‘thousand years’ of the end times, now. The ‘second death’ refers to the ‘spiritual death’ of those souls that will be damned, not the ones that are saved. The final Judgement comes after the return of Jesus. That’s when Satan, and all of the damned, will never be able to bother us, again.

There is no time where Christ becomes human and reigns on earth as we know it. Heaven and Earth will pass away but Jesus words will never pass away.

Jesus has never stopped being human! And, He will most certainly reign as our King on the New Earth, after the last Judgement.

and then straight from the mouth of God:

Rev 22: 6 And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true, for the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place.”

7 “See, I am coming soon!** Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”

Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!**

‘I am coming soon’ is what we must always believe… No matter if it is today or tomorrow, or in end times we must stay steadfast in our faith and keep believing that Jesus will come!

Rev 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it; for the time is near.

Exactly! We are all anxiously awaiting His Second Coming, when we will all be resurrected and live with Him, forever.

 

[Karen107]

First of all, Karen, no offense, but I think you’re a little confused about the subject of this thread, and many people’s posts. (Reading your posts in it reminds me of Emily Litella’s editorials on the original SNL.) The OP is looking for help in responding to the Protestant view of the “rapture”, but from a Catholic perspective, so he can better respond to their claims. I think most people that have responded have given very good answers. You seem to think that when they’re referring to the Protestant view, that they believe those things, themselves, but they really don’t.

Please Just listen me out here… Actually I’m not confused about the topic of the post and I was going to let it rest but try to understand what I have come to believe. I’ve read these books referred to and have taken classes on the subject and I don’t’ take my discipleship lightly. The book of Revelation is primarily about the mass as Scott Hahn pointed out. The way other posters say this is that Jesus will come and be with us at the second coming. I believe Jesus is with us now and we will be resurrected WITH Him at the second coming because Jesus IS the resurrection and the life! But at the coming of man, Jesus will be ‘seen’ by us. Jesus comes to us first at the mass, and the second time when we will be resurrected. Each time we wait for His coming and I see it as a continual coming ‘the Parousia’ which means ‘presence’ or Christs presence. This would be the same way the early Christians saw it because they thought the end of the world was going to happen in their lifetime.

You do realize that Jesus no longer walks the earth at this point in time, correct? Yes, we all know that He will always be with us, spiritually (and, physically, in the Eucharist), but for now, He (with His actual human body) is in Heaven. So yes, Jesus did actually ‘leave us’ when He Ascended into Heaven, but in His human form, we learn in scriptures that Jesus changes form many times (the transfiguration shows us that) but that doesn’t mean Jesus isn’t present. When people talk about Jesus’ Second Coming, we refer to His returning at the end of time, when everyone will be resurrected and judged by Him and Jesus will separate the sheep from the goats. After the final judgement, He will reign on the new earth, forever.

Yes I do. And I don’t believe Jesus left us. Jesus said He will ALWAYS be with us. The Holy Eucharist is the body, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ as we are taught to believe it. We walk by faith to ‘see’ this and believe that Jesus is with us always. Why? Because Jesus said so many times. He told His disciples “I will be with you always”. Jesus did not leave us. But what happens in the resurrection is that OUR bodies will be changed and so we will see things as they really are, and therefore we will see Jesus as He really is.

As I said above, His actual human body is in Heaven, not on the earth. But, He will return in The Parousia, when He will Judge the living and the dead.

His actual human body is With us. Like I said before I agree with Scott Hahns teaching of the Parousia being the Eucharist. There is the opening presence (the Parousia) the eucharist, and the final parousia at the end when Jesus Christ returns. Now I am not going to speculate that end times is now because I don’t have that authority, but there is no time when Jesus is not with us. Jesus is in Gods word, In the priest who stands in persona Christi, when two or more are gathered in His name and most especially Jesus is present in the Eucharist. BUT! we must be in spirit to see that. Jesus tells us to worship in Spirit so we do see His presence. Does he leave us? No… never… That is very biblical. God/Jesus says over and over ‘Do not be afraid for I am with you’. There is no time that Jesus is not with us in fact Jesus was, is and will always be with us.

We are living in the ‘thousand years’ of the end times, now. The ‘second death’ refers to the ‘spiritual death’ of those souls that will be damned, not the ones that are saved. The final Judgement comes after the return of Jesus. That’s when Satan, and all of the damned, will never be able to bother us, again.

The thousand years means "a long time’ that long time refers to the time that Jesus arrived in Bethlehem as our King and until the end of time. Which will be at the end of time on earth as we know it. God knows no time but we as ‘earthlings’ do. When the scripture speaks of time x times and a half in the book of Revelation it tells us something. Time is the time from the beginning to the end of our natural earth, and the time when Jesus came on earth as man was in the middle of time, and half time is the time between that time the end of time on earth. So it’s a long time. We are in that time when Christ reigns on earth and will be our King forever in eternity.

Jesus has never stopped being human! And, He will most certainly reign as our King on the New Earth, after the last Judgement.

So then you agree with me that Jesus has always been with us. By human I meant as you meant, ‘walked the face of the earth’.

 

[Karen107]

Exactly! We are all anxiously awaiting His Second Coming, when we will all be resurrected and live with Him, forever.

I believe we are already with Him. He IS the resurrection and the life. When we receive the eucharist Jesus consumes us until we are finally consumed in heaven. I don’t see it that Jesus leaves us and approaches us again, I see that Jesus always has been with us, but it is us who will be changed "to become a spiritual being’’ and see Jesus as He really is. St. Paul says we don’t die, we fall asleep and Jesus will renew the face of the earth. Though we have to die before having our bodies transformed into Christs likeness.

The reason for the left behind part is because When St. Paul was speaking to the Thessalonians in 1 Thess 4:13-18, The Thessalonians were wondering if they would be left behind and not taken up with those already in heaven. St. Paul is reassuring them that they would be and they would be made one body of Christ who will live with Christ forever in a new earth or heavenly Jerusalem. So in fact, we will be ‘lifted up’ or assumed if we are still alive on earth at the second coming. This is one event. The coming of Jesus and the general judgement and the resurrection of the body. That’s why it says in the Catechism that the Parousia is related to the final judgement. If you look at the scripture closely it speaks of those already dead ‘In Christ’. Well there are also those who are In Christ who are alive ‘left on earth’, because they take of the body and blood of our Lord so have already been consumed by Jesus so are already becoming to be transformed into His likeness. Of course the final transformation happens in heaven. The ones left then on earth are those who haven’t been consumed or the unrighteous ones who will be left on the planet with Satan and his minion where there will be a second death. As I said before, we must always ask Jesus to come and Jesus will come…

So to sum up, our bodies will be resurrected and we will be with our Lord when it happens. We will not be left behind. As St Paul teaches the earth is our ‘tent’ or temporary home but we are all citizens of our real home in heaven with God.

Anyway, this is how ‘I’ve’ come to understand it. Gods peace to all.

 

[Karen107]

**I should have said the first coming was when Jesus came in Bethlehem and left us the gift of Himself in the Eucharist. Peace…

 

[Shaolen]

**I should have said the first coming was when Jesus came in Bethlehem and left us the gift of Himself in the Eucharist. Peace…

for the love of God please keep this thread on topic.

 

[Karen107]

for the love of God please keep this thread on topic.

. I apologize but I believe I had as I understand it. Perhaps there is a reason why the Protestants are so far apart in their beliefs on the rapture and it is because they are not seeing the bigger picture that Catholics have come to understand regarding the scriptures? There have been books and books on this very subject from both sides and so I say that with no disrespect to anyone.

 

[TimothyH]

I believe we are already with Him. He IS the resurrection and the life. When we receive the eucharist Jesus consumes us until we are finally consumed in heaven. I don’t see it that Jesus leaves us and approaches us again, I see that Jesus always has been with us, but it is us who will be changed "to become a spiritual being’’ and see Jesus as He really is. St. Paul says we don’t die, we fall asleep and Jesus will renew the face of the earth. Though we have to die before having our bodies transformed into Christs likeness.

The reason for the left behind part is because When St. Paul was speaking to the Thessalonians in 1 Thess 4:13-18, The Thessalonians were wondering if they would be left behind and not taken up with those already in heaven. St. Paul is reassuring them that they would be and they would be made one body of Christ who will live with Christ forever in a new earth or heavenly Jerusalem. So in fact, we will be ‘lifted up’ or assumed if we are still alive on earth at the second coming. This is one event. The coming of Jesus and the general judgement and the resurrection of the body. That’s why it says in the Catechism that the Parousia is related to the final judgement. If you look at the scripture closely it speaks of those already dead ‘In Christ’. Well there are also those who are In Christ who are alive ‘left on earth’, because they take of the body and blood of our Lord so have already been consumed by Jesus so are already becoming to be transformed into His likeness. Of course the final transformation happens in heaven. The ones left then on earth are those who haven’t been consumed or the unrighteous ones who will be left on the planet with Satan and his minion where there will be a second death. As I said before, we must always ask Jesus to come and Jesus will come…

So to sum up, our bodies will be resurrected and we will be with our Lord when it happens. We will not be left behind. As St Paul teaches the earth is our ‘tent’ or temporary home but we are all citizens of our real home in heaven with God.

Anyway, this is how ‘I’ve’ come to understand it. Gods peace to all.

No, God comes to dwell with us on earth. Our bodies will be resurrected and Jesus returns to live with us. Creation will be changed. The sea will be no more. We will not need light. Earth will be heaven. That’s what the Bible says.

-Tim-

 

[Karen107]

No, God comes to dwell with us on earth. Our bodies will be resurrected and Jesus returns to live with us. Creation will be changed. The sea will be no more. We will not need light. Earth will be heaven. That’s what the Bible says.

-Tim-

Tim, what the bible says is that there will be a new heaven and earth and a heavenly Jerusalem and the earth as we know it will pass away. Read the whole scripture on it… Revelation 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Revelation 21:21 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

You’re right creation will be changed and the earth as we know it shall be no more. For example, our human shells (our physical self) we have now will be ashes. Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return. Gen 3:19…We will be transformed on the last day in the resurrection to become One glorified body of Christ as we see in this scripture.

1 Corinthians 15: 42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Again, This is how I’ve come to understand it…Remember Christs Kingdom is not of this world although we as faithful Christians can be part of the Kingdom in this life which is a great gift that God has given us.

 

[TimothyH]

Tim, what the bible says is that there will be a new heaven and earth and a heavenly Jerusalem and the earth as we know it will pass away. Read the whole scripture on it… Revelation 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Revelation 21:21 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

You’re right creation will be changed and the earth as we know it shall be no more. For example, our human shells (our physical self) we have now will be ashes. Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return. Gen 3:19…We will be transformed on the last day in the resurrection to become One glorified body of Christ as we see in this scripture.

1 Corinthians 15: 42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Again, This is how I’ve come to understand it…Remember Christs Kingdom is not of this world although we as faithful Christians can be part of the Kingdom in this life which is a great gift that God has given us.

You need to read The Marriage Supper of the Lamb by Scott Hahn.

-Tim-

 

[Karen107]

You need to read The Marriage Supper of the Lamb by Scott Hahn.

-Tim-

Tim, I was the one who quoted Scott Hahn in this post and know the importance of the Eucharist and it’s relevance to the book of Revelation and it’s relationship to end times… Though I haven’t read the entire book I have listened to him speak on many occasions. Youtubes, EWTN…

Lets just stop a minute and listen to this…

youtube.com/watch?v=GflkcyudnBw

This written below the video…

Hahn shows us the link between the celebration of the Eucharist and the end of the world. He illustrates how the heavenly worship found in the Book of Revelation is really an account of the Marriage Feast of the Lamb - a celebration of the Holy Eucharist.

 

[Karen107]

Okay I’m going to simplify it and the left behind question so to show it more clearly…

Jesus IS the resurrection and the life…

Clearly it says here that we will be resurrected…

John 6:54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Resurrection meaning the “RISING of the dead”.

So Jesus will ‘raise us’ up to heaven…

 

[Michael_Francis]

Departed from topic and closed.