Need help defending Church teaching on Mary

[alitaptap]

I need help defending Church teaching regarding Mother Mary.

A Baptist said:

*john 14:6
Jesus is the only way to heaven not Mary

isaiah 9:6
the prophecy of the coming Mesiah

think of it
Mary is 100% human
she is mortal
when we say mortal, means she has a beginning therefore she will end too
but Jesus, He is already God even before…He just have to be human so He can pay for our sin…
God has the power to be human and yet remains 100% God in His humanity period while He was here on earth*

How do I answer these arguments against the Church’s teaching on the need to go through Mary to speak to Jesus or the Father?

 

[Cachonga]

alitaptap:

How do I answer these arguments against the Church’s teaching on the need to go through Mary to speak to Jesus or the Father?

You may want to review what you think the church is teaching about Mary. To the best of my knowledge, the church has never taught that you need to go through Mary to get to Jesus OR the Father. If I’m wrong, I would very much like to see some documentation for the teaching.

 

[alitaptap]

The Baptist further said/argued:

*she just want to share the truth. my brother, catholicism is the living sword that spanish used to us to conquer our countryI understand, they stayed here for more than 300 years ago, no wonder the faith of many Filipinos today are base from it. well, my question is, who came first? adam and eve right? they came first before mary was born. therefore, the whole race of humanity was corrupted of sin including the generation of mary. that means, the entire human race are all sinner. we inherit that including us.

you know the meaning of the word grace? Grace means, a given favor but not meant for that person. since we, as human are all sinner. including Mary, since she is human too."

i told you before that the qualification of mary why God chose her to be an instrument, to use her womb, to overshadowed by Holy Spirit because the fullfillment of prophecy was in her time and that she and joseph were from the descendant of king david, from the tribe of judah

yeah, she was virgin,well what is something new of being virgin? even today in our liberated generation still lots of girls are still virgin.how much more during that time of mary. Hebrew women are too conservative also because they are God’s people and they are so obedient of the law.

if you would just open your mind,just think of it, widen your understanding…you will see. many things are confusing. i felt that when i was in my old faith. but when i read the bible, attend to christian church and have a personal studies,i understand little by little without forcing myself to believe…just as after i knew the truth,i build my faith…

Christianity is not a religion as what most people always said. but rather it is a personal relationship to Jesus Christ. He is the one who was crucified for us. He fulfilled the demand of the law Romans 3:23, the payment of sin is death. since we can’t pay for our sin because we sinner, Jesus is the pure one. since He is God who became man. he never sinned. so, he was qualified…a sacrifice should be pure…sinless…therefore, He became our Saviour that thru Jesus Christ our sin is already forgiven. what we need to do is to accept Him as our Lord and Saviour.

Based on the bible, I believe that Jesus Christ is already God but needs to became man thru a virgin birth.I believe that the Holy Spirit gives us wisdom and conviction to make our righteous living possible.

I believe that God the Father, the Godhead…the Creator, and the Planner of saving mankind from eternal punishment of hell that thru His second person Jesus Christ, He sent Him to earth to save us.

and Mary is like us…a human also. she believed in God also. and i believe according to the bible, since she was a Hebrew too…that she waited or the coming of Messiah,and yeah she might surprised because she’s about to get wed that time yet the angel told her she will be pregnant thru the Holy Spirit…and since Mary believed of course, she is in heaven now*

 

[LynJohn1023]

Lk 1:38, Lk 1:48.
Read Hail Holy Queen: The Mother of God in the Word of God by Scott Hahn (himself a former Catholicism detractor).

 

[supergran]

God didn’t “use Mary’s womb”. He allowed her the dignity that he allows all other human persons - he asked her to co-operate with him and she did so in all obedience.

God didn’t use her womb - he allowed her to be the mother of His Son - she wasn’t just a vessel - her DNA made up Jesus’ body - it was a person -to person intimate moment - just like the conception of any child is meant to be.

Mary would have been susceptible to the transmission of original sin because, as you say, she is only a human (but we don’t fully realise how amazing humans are in God’s plan). She needed to be saved from original sin by the only Saviour, Jesus Christ. Catholic believe that this salvation was applied to Mary before she herself was conceived by her parents, so that she was being prepared for the awesome role she would carry out and agree to (She always had the free choice, but God, who knows all things, knew that she would say “Yes”). In this way, her son who was not born yet saved her from sin by the crucixion he had not yet (in human time) undergone. She acknowledges that she needed a saviour in the “Magnificat”
"And my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour God bless you

 

[TimothyH]

Catholics do what we do because Mary is a queen.

Jesus is clearly a King and the kings of the Old Testament apploined their mothers to the position of queen. Mary is Jesus’ queen.

The whole theme of Matthew’s Gospel is Jesus and his kingdom; the announcement of the kingdom, descriptions of the kingdom, the establishment of the kingdom, the tearing down of the old kingdom. Jesus spends all of Chapter 13 of Matthews Gospel giving parables about what his kingdom will be like.

When the people saw the sign he had done, they said, “This is truly the Prophet, the one who is to come into the world.” Since Jesus knew that they were going to come and carry him off to make him king, he withdrew again to the mountain alone. (John 6:14-15)

The people around Jesus recognized him as thier King. It’s undeniable. And we must always remember that the Old Testament is the story of God preparing his people to accept their Messiah, preparing Israel and the whole world to accept their King. And when we look at all the Kings of the Old Testament who come before and prefigure Jesus, we find a curious fact about who these Kings appointed to be their Queens.

Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king’s mother, who sat at his right. (1 Kings 2:19)

No one in the kingdom was higher than the king, yet Solomon pays homage to his mother and seats her in a throne on his right. Only kings and queens sit on thrones. Bathsheba is given a throne because she is not only Solomon’s mother but she is also his queen.

The Hebrew word for queen-mother or literally “Grand lady” is Gebirah. We see references to the Gebirah elswhere in the Old Testament.

Jehu met the kinsmen of Ahazi’ah king of Judah, and he said, “Who are you?” And they answered, "We are the kinsmen of Ahazi’ah, and we came down to visit the royal princes and the sons of the queen mother."
(2 Kings 10:13)

This was after King Jeconiah and the queen mother, the court officials, the princes of Judah and Jerusalem, the artisans and smiths had left Jerusalem. (Jerimiah 29:2)

In fact, the various kings throught he centuries are listed in the 1 and 2 Kings and 1 and 2 Chronicles and with every king, the king’s mother is also listed.

In the eighteenth year of King Jeroboam, son of Nebat, Abijam became king of Judah; he reigned three years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Maacah, daughter of Abishalom. (1 Kings 15:1-2)

In the eighteenth year of King Jeroboam, Abijah became king of Judah; he reigned three years in Jerusalem. His mother was named Micaiah, daughter of Uriel of Gibeah. (2 Chronicals 13:1-2)

Uzziah was sixteen years old when he became king, and he reigned fifty-two years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Jecoliah, from Jerusalem. (2 Chronicals 26:3)

There are twenty seven verses like this! When God repeats something once or twice in the Bible, he is trying to tell us something. When God repeats something twenty seven times, we had better take notice! God is telling us who the mother of the king was because the mother of the king was a queen.

*A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. (Revelation 12:1) *

We can argue who the woman in Revelation 12 is but the fact that she wears a crown is clear. Only kings and queens wear crowns and so the woman wearning a crown is clearly a queen. The woman is described as giving birth to a male child who rules the nations, and this description is consistent with a king and his mother the queen which we see in the Old Testament. The fact that the woman’s son in Revelation 12 is “Caught up to God and his throne” leads most Christians to believe that the child is Jesus. The mother can only be Mary, and Mary is Jesus’ Queen.

As the Queen of Heaven and earth, Mary is higher than the angels and the saints, sitting on a throne next to her son Jesus Christ, the King.

All the angels and saints in Heaven bow before Mary their Queen. Shouldn’t we?

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

The Baptist further said/argued:

if you would just open your mind,just think of it, widen your understanding…you will see. many things are confusing. i felt that when i was in my old faith. but when i read the bible, attend to christian church and have a personal studies,i understand little by little without forcing myself to believe…just as after i knew the truth,i build my faith…

This is a trick, to get you to believe that you are confused about your faith, to get you to believe that you really don’t know what to think and that there is no place to go other than the Bible for answers. It is a trick. I live in the Atlanta suburbs, and they try to trick me like this all the time. It is a trick.

Christ the King established a kingdom, and granted it authority, and it speaks on his behalf.

Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. (Luke 10:16)

The church is the mouthpiece of Christ, his authority and his instrument of salvation on earth.

Don’t fall for tricks.

-Tim-

 

[ConstantineTG]

I need help defending Church teaching regarding Mother Mary.

A Baptist said:

*john 14:6
Jesus is the only way to heaven not Mary

isaiah 9:6
the prophecy of the coming Mesiah

think of it
Mary is 100% human
she is mortal
when we say mortal, means she has a beginning therefore she will end too
but Jesus, He is already God even before…He just have to be human so He can pay for our sin…
God has the power to be human and yet remains 100% God in His humanity period while He was here on earth*

How do I answer these arguments against the Church’s teaching on the need to go through Mary to speak to Jesus or the Father?

There is nothing wrong with everything he said. Why be defensive over it? Except that Mary will have an end. All of us have a beginning but no end, God granted us immortal souls and all of us will be raised up on the last day. It is just a matter of spending eternity in heaven or hell, but we will exist for all eternity.

 

[animalis]

These positions that attempt to presuade with resentiments, such as calling Catholicism a living sword that conquered your country, are a red flag to me on the issue of contention. St. James says, “For where envying and contention is, there is inconstancy, and every evil work.” (Jas 3:16) To follow this order of reason within a discussion is including yourself in the contention that possibly is imposed upon you. The evil of contention is brought out a number of times in the bible (Rom 1:29, Rom 13:13, 1 Cor 3:3, Phil 1:15, 17, 2:3, 1 Tim 2:8). It should be avoided.

Truth consists in the mind and assents to things. And when our mind is acting with the passion of anger we tend to sway from a resemblance of truth. What you wrote of Mary, I also recall a resemblance in the writtings of S. Louis de Montfort. But S. Louis would not say that it is necessary to go through Mary, but that it pleases God by our free will to choose Mary and thereby humbling ourselves like she would. It is not necessary but it is purposed as a holy way of comprehensive quiddity of spirituality.

“Faith seeks understanding” (Catechism of the catholic church, 158) The focus of understanding her point of view, so that you may share your understanding of faith is difficult indeed. And when there is the stance of hatred, meaning to get rid of something, common ground cannot be ‘met’. I suggest you move on and let God led you to another thing, where there is understanding in what is believed and given therefrom.

 

[LynJohn1023]

This is a trick, to get you to believe that you are confused about your faith, to get you to believe that you really don’t know what to think and that there is no place to go other than the Bible for answers. It is a trick. I live in the Atlanta suburbs, and they try to trick me like this all the time. It is a trick.

Christ the King established a kingdom, and granted it authority, and it speaks on his behalf.

Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. (Luke 10:16)

The church is the mouthpiece of Christ, his authority and his instrument of salvation on earth.

Don’t fall for tricks.

-Tim-

Tim, what parish? I’m from Saint Brigid in John’s Creek. This is such a superb answer. God bless those evangelicals. I just wish they’d go after actual non-christians. But, they have good hearts most of the time. It’s hard sometimes to remember that, from their perspective, we are idolaters because we worship “symbols” like the Blessed Sacrament. As I said to a baptist friend who wondered, either the Eucharist in the Catholic (and Orthodox) church IS truly Jesus Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity or I am going to hell for extremely crass idolatry. He’s reading my catechism these days and in Inquiry classes.
We should defend the Hope that is in us. But, we are not to be trapped. I tell the ones trying to trap that if they use deception and subtrefuge to get me to come out of what they believe not to be the Church, they are thieves and robbers. According to Scripture one such should wish he’d never been born.

 

[LynJohn1023]

These positions that attempt to presuade with resentiments, such as calling Catholicism a living sword that conquered your country, are a red flag to me on the issue of contention. St. James says, “For where envying and contention is, there is inconstancy, and every evil work.” (Jas 3:16) To follow this order of reason within a discussion is including yourself in the contention that possibly is imposed upon you. The evil of contention is brought out a number of times in the bible (Rom 1:29, Rom 13:13, 1 Cor 3:3, Phil 1:15, 17, 2:3, 1 Tim 2:8). It should be avoided.

Truth consists in the mind and assents to things. And when our mind is acting with the passion of anger we tend to sway from a resemblance of truth. What you wrote of Mary, I also recall a resemblance in the writtings of S. Louis de Montfort. But S. Louis would not say that it is necessary to go through Mary, but that it pleases God by our free will to choose Mary and thereby humbling ourselves like she would. It is not necessary but it is purposed as a holy way of comprehensive quiddity of spirituality.

“Faith seeks understanding” (Catechism of the catholic church, 158) The focus of understanding her point of view, so that you may share your understanding of faith is difficult indeed. And when there is the stance of hatred, meaning to get rid of something, common ground cannot be ‘met’. I suggest you move on and let God led you to another thing, where there is understanding in what is believed and given therefrom.

I agree with your statment that common premises must exist to join a debate. It is the same with abortion proponents. When entering discussion with one such I always ask them when they believe Life begins. Anything other than at the quickening (uterine implantation) means we can’t have a discussion. I can’t discuss with someone who thinks in such lawyerly terms that they believe abortion is ever anything but the termination by violence of a human life. They may think it is ok for any number of reasons. But, if we can’t agree it is human in the womb from the very beginning of cell division, we have no common ground to begin to persuade one another.

 

[JM3]

Mary is 100% human
she is mortal
when we say mortal, means she has a beginning therefore she will end too

What non-catholics fail to understand is that the Blessed Virgin Mary is in her glorious body and, with that, has the rewards that God has willed for her to have. She is now what we hope to become.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html

"4…Yet, according to the general rule, God does not will to grant to the just the full effect of the victory over death until the end of time has come. And so it is that the bodies of even the just are corrupted after death, and only on the last day will they be joined, each to its own glorious soul.

1. Now God has willed that the Blessed Virgin Mary should be exempted from this general rule. She, by an entirely unique privilege, completely overcame sin by her Immaculate Conception, and as a result she was not subject to the law of remaining in the corruption of the grave, and she did not have to wait until the end of time for the redemption of her body."

“40. Hence the revered Mother of God, from all eternity joined in a hidden way with Jesus Christ in one and the same decree of predestination,(47) immaculate in her conception, a most perfect virgin in her divine motherhood, the noble associate of the divine Redeemer who has won a complete triumph over sin and its consequences, finally obtained, as the supreme culmination of her privileges, that she should be preserved free from the corruption of the tomb and that, like her own Son, having overcome death, she might be taken up body and soul to the glory of heaven where, as Queen, she sits in splendor at the right hand of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages.(48)”

 

[Nick1022]

These people cannot explain Rev. 12 or John 19:26.

I think you have to agree that Jesus is the only way to heaven but you explain that as his Mother, she wants us to go to him.

Tell them to “NEVER” ask a friend to pray for them because Jesus is the only way to heaven. Tell them that that it is silly to pray to sinful MORTAL beings because Jesus alone is the way to heaven. Tell them to NEVER have recourse to anyone but Jesus, no preacher, no church elder, no man, no woman.
They will then see how silly the logic is that says we cannot ask the Virgin Mary, Mother of God to pray for us. How much more is the Mother of Christ able to pray for us now that she is enthroned in Heaven!
We do not ask for Mary to save us in her own power, we ask her to beg Jesus to come to our aid. We do not have to have this intercession, but why would we forgo it knowing how close she is to Christ?

Thanks, Nick
weightofthewood.blogspot.com

 

[TimothyH]

Tim, what parish? I’m from Saint Brigid in John’s Creek. This is such a superb answer. God bless those evangelicals. I just wish they’d go after actual non-christians. But, they have good hearts most of the time. It’s hard sometimes to remember that, from their perspective, we are idolaters because we worship “symbols” like the Blessed Sacrament. As I said to a baptist friend who wondered, either the Eucharist in the Catholic (and Orthodox) church IS truly Jesus Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity or I am going to hell for extremely crass idolatry. He’s reading my catechism these days and in Inquiry classes.
We should defend the Hope that is in us. But, we are not to be trapped. I tell the ones trying to trap that if they use deception and subtrefuge to get me to come out of what they believe not to be the Church, they are thieves and robbers. According to Scripture one such should wish he’d never been born.

I’m at St. Catherine of Siena over in sleepy ol’ Kennesaw. I’ve met one or two of your deacons. Tom Huff and Dennis Dorner are good men.

Good to hear about your Baptist friend.

I usually say something like, “Would you be willing to stop trying to convert me and just be my friend?”

They are shocked to find a Catholic who knows scripture and I have warned more than one that this is a new type of Catholic, who knows his faith and can defend it, not to assume that one can just rattle off a few Bible verses and get someone to convert.

Non-Catholics girls have approached my daughter in high school as a result of some science debate about stem cell research or abortion or something, asking what Church she goes to. When she says that she’s Catholic, they say, “Oh wow. I didn’t know that you guys believe the same thing we do. Wanna hang out?”

That’s the best.

-Tim-

 

[BellsMom]

God didn’t “use Mary’s womb”. He allowed her the dignity that he allows all other human persons - he asked her to co-operate with him and she did so in all obedience./QUOTE]

Just a minor point here. I’ve never read those passages as God “asking” Mary to co-operate with him. Gabriel told Mary she was going to have a baby and then told her what to name him.

I’ve wondered why the scripture was written that way and not in a way that gives Mary a choice.

 

[TimothyH]

God didn’t “use Mary’s womb”. He allowed her the dignity that he allows all other human persons - he asked her to co-operate with him and she did so in all obedience./QUOTE]

Just a minor point here. I’ve never read those passages as God “asking” Mary to co-operate with him. Gabriel told Mary she was going to have a baby and then told her what to name him.

I’ve wondered why the scripture was written that way and not in a way that gives Mary a choice.

Mary was given a choice, but we don’t see it unless we look at the whole story, from cover to cover, from Genesis 1:1 all the way through to Revelation 21:22. Everyone in the Bible is given a choice. Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and Solomon. Peter and the Apostles were asked point-blank by Jesus to make a definite choice.

Then he said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” (Luke 9:20)

And again, Jesus asks the Apostles to choose.

Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” (John 6:67)

Mary could have reacted as Moses did when he was chosen by God to go back to Egypt and contend with Pharoah.

***But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and lead the Israelites out of Egypt?” **(Exodus 3:11)

"But," objected Moses, "suppose they will not believe me, nor listen to my plea? For they may say, ‘The LORD did not appear to you.’" (Exodus 4:1)

Moses, however, said to the LORD, “If you please, LORD, I have never been eloquent, neither in the past, nor recently, nor now that you have spoken to your servant; but I am slow of speech and tongue.” (Exodus 4:10)

Yet he insisted, “If you please, Lord, send someone else!” (Exodus 4:13)*

But Mary didn’t react like that. Mary didn’t react like Adam and Eve, not trusting God, or like Jonah who ran away from God, or like Moses who compained that he wasn’t good enough. Mary reacted differently.

Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” (Luke 1:38)

Mary had a choice. We are all given choices. At a certain point in everyone’s life, sometimes at many points, we are asked by Christ, “Who do you say that I am?” And it is a question everyone must answer. He is the Christ, God in the flesh and you must bend your knee, or he is insane - a man who claims to be God and asked people to die for that false belief.

There is no middle ground.

-Tim-

 

[Erich]

Christianity is not a religion as what most people always said. but rather it is a personal relationship to Jesus Christ. He is the one who was crucified for us. He fulfilled the demand of the law Romans 3:23, the payment of sin is death. since we can’t pay for our sin because we sinner, Jesus is the pure one. since He is God who became man. he never sinned. so, he was qualified…a sacrifice should be pure…sinless…therefore, He became our Saviour that thru Jesus Christ our sin is already forgiven. what we need to do is to accept Him as our Lord and Saviour.

Yes, Romans 10:9 does say that “if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” But Romans 10:9 does *not * say that is *all *we need to do to be saved!

What I must do to be saved:

• I must be baptized with water and the Spirit. Mark 16:16, John 3:3-5, Titus 3:5, I Peter 3:20-21. (Exceptions: [1] If I desire Baptism but die before I can be baptized with water and the Spirit, God accepts my desire to be baptized, and [2] If I am killed (martyred) because of my faith, but I have not had the opportunity to be baptized, God accepts my death as my baptism, called the Baptism of Blood).
• I must do the will of God the Father. Matthew 7:21
• I must keep the Commandments of God. Matthew 5:19-20, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 19:17, 1 Timothy 6:14, and others.
• I must accept the Cross (suffering). Matthew 10:38, Matthew 16:24-25, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, Luke 14:27. Phil 1:29, and others.
• I must be a member of God’s true church. Acts 2:46-47.
• I must confess my sins. James 5:16, I John 1:9, John 20:19-23
• I must heed the words of St. Peter, the first Pope. Acts 11:13-14, Acts 15:7.
• I must eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. John 6:51-58, I Corinthians 10:16-17, 11:23-30.
• I must do unto others as I would have them do unto me and love my neighbor as myself. I must feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the sick and those in prison or give other aid to those in need. Luke 10:33 ff, Mt 25:31-46. “Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are very pleasing to God” Hebrews 13:16. Good works don’t save us, but we will be judged by them.
• I must strive to be holy. “Strive for peace with everyone and for that holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” Hebrews 12:14
• I must endure (persevere) to the end. Matthew 10:22, Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13.
• I must be perfect as my heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:48