Need Help Explaining things to my sister

  • Thread starter Thread starter jgajmom
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

jgajmom

Guest
I am considering converting to the Catholic church. I grew up in the church of Christ. My sister has been pretty supportive of me, but lately has been bringing up everything she has heard about the Catholic church. I have tried giving her things I have read thus far, but I need help. Right now, purgatory and the books in the Catholic Bible that are not in the Protestant Bible are the issues on the table. Can you give me some advice on how to explain these things?
 
I am considering converting to the Catholic church. I grew up in the church of Christ. My sister has been pretty supportive of me, but lately has been bringing up everything she has heard about the Catholic church. I have tried giving her things I have read thus far, but I need help. Right now, purgatory and the books in the Catholic Bible that are not in the Protestant Bible are the issues on the table. Can you give me some advice on how to explain these things?
Purgatory
Purgatory
Why Catholics have a bigger Bible.
 
you can start with “Where We Got the Bible” by Henry Graham
 
I am considering converting to the Catholic church. I grew up in the church of Christ. My sister has been pretty supportive of me, but lately has been bringing up everything she has heard about the Catholic church. I have tried giving her things I have read thus far, but I need help. Right now, purgatory and the books in the Catholic Bible that are not in the Protestant Bible are the issues on the table. Can you give me some advice on how to explain these things?
I would suggest that you explain to here tha you yourself are just learning and you will be happy to talk with her later. I don’t suggest trying to defend Catholic teaching and practice to others while in RCIA. You can give here this Web address and suggest she post her questions here.
 
I agree with the poster about not worrying about explaining much right now. If you enter an RCIA program the first stage is the inquiry stage where you can get answers to questions your sister has as well as questions you will have.

Regarding books in the Bible, I believe that all Bibles had all the OT books until the 19th century. When Martin Luther broke away he re arranged the now missing books and put them at the end of the bible. Given the location, they were easily ignored. I think it was
American Fundamentalists in the 19th century who pushed to get them removed. However, you can checked the sources already referenced here.

You will now find these missing books have returned to many of the newer non Catholic bibles and are located at the end.

BTW, I’m part of a parissh RCIA team and two questions that come up are the need to confess to a priest and “What’s the difference between a Catholic and a Christian”. I’m Catholic and would never think of Catholics not being Christians.
 
Regarding purgatory, ask her 3 simple questions
  1. Is she now completely free from sin and the inclination towards sin?
  2. In heaven will she be completely free from sin and the inclination towards sin?
  3. Between 1 and 2, what changed? We call that change “purgatory”.
Regarding the books in the bible, ask her to show you any time in Christian history before 1500 when the Protestant list of books was declared the official canon. She will not be able to give you a single instance, because in all those 1500 years the Protestant canon was never the official canon of Christianity.
 
I too agree that it is best to refer her to this site, or to tell her you will pass along things as you yourself are learning. The most improtant thing that ANY catholic apologist should know is how to say - I don’t know, but I’ll find out.

In reference to the Bible canon, here is a list of councils, ALL before the protestant reformation, that approved the canon that we catholics hold today.
**Council of Rome (382) **
Local church council under the authority of Pope Damasus, (366-384) gave a complete list of canonical books of the OT and NT which is identical with the list later approved by the Council of Trent.
**Council of Hippo (393) **
Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)
**Council of Carthage (397) **
Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)
**Pope Innocent I, Bishop of Rome, 401-417 (405) **
Responded to a request by Exuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, with a list of canonical books of Scripture; this list was the same as later approved by the Council of Trent.
**Council of Carthage (419) **
Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)
The Council of Nicea (787)
The Council of Nicea II in 787 ratified the same canon as authoritative for the Eastern Churches.
**Council of Florence, an ecumenical council (1441) **
Complete list of OT and NT canon was drawn up; this list later adopted by the Fathers of the Council of Trent

I believe that there may have been a couple more that I missed.
The point of this is that, multiple times the one church (though divided east and west) under the protection of the Holy Spirit, approved the SAME canon - in council. At the time of the reformation it was one man who removed the books. Although even HE did not entirely remove them from his first bible translation, he only put them in a seperate section.

As to the question of purgatory, this is a little easier to understand with the catholic canon because praying for the dead is mentioned in 2 Maccabees 12:44-46
But St Paul also mentions this:
I Corinthians 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth therupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abid which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
This speaks of our works being tested as if by fire and those not of the proper sort, it will be burned away. This is the “Purgation”, in other words we will be "purged of our (name removed by moderator)erfections. The “place” where this occurs cannot be heaven or heall since these are final destinations. Instead we refer to this plcase as “purgatory”, the place or the state where the “purgation” occurs.

Finally, This is from the Catachism HERE
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.
​

Hope some of this helps

Peace
James
 
God Bless you on your search for the Truth of Jesus Christ!

While most Christian denominations profess some of the Truth, they often leave out parts of it & even teach false ideas as well.

i believe the fullness of that Truth can only be found in the One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church Jesus gave to us to guide us until His return!

Excellent resources & advice so far.

The short answers for your sister; The Catholic Church has always had the same 73 books in the Bible, 46 Old Testament + 27 New Testament books, for nearly 2000 years.

The Catholic Church formally defined which books should be in the Bible (called the ‘canon’) based on the 46 books in the Jewish Greek Septuagint, the OT used by Jesus & the New Testament writers. The Protestant’s removed 7 Old Testament books based on the Hebrew rabbinic Jewish canon from around 300 AD.

Which Old Testament would you rather use? The one used by Jesus & the New Testament writers, or the OT used by later Jews who rejected Christ & persecuted Christianity?

Purgatory is a little more complicated.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) defines purgatory as a “purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven,” which is experienced by those “who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified” (CCC 1030). It notes that “this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned” (CCC 1031).

i like the example of the boy playing baseball who breaks a neighbor’s window. The boy knocks on the door & says he is sorry & the neighbor forgives the boy. That is the Mercy that God shows us when we repent of our sins. The boy still needs to pay for the window, that is what happens in purgatory, purification.

**Remember, every Church is made up of flawed people, none of these individuals has all of the answers & we are all sinners. If you truly want to learn what the Catholic Church teaches, the Catechism is an excellent place to start!
**
!Here is a great website to search the Catechism of the Catholic Church; scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark
 
I am considering converting to the Catholic church. I grew up in the church of Christ. My sister has been pretty supportive of me, but lately has been bringing up everything she has heard about the Catholic church. I have tried giving her things I have read thus far, but I need help. Right now, purgatory and the books in the Catholic Bible that are not in the Protestant Bible are the issues on the table. Can you give me some advice on how to explain these things?
Others have given you excellent answers and links.
Keep in mind when you are dealing with siblings, many times the ‘pecking order’ is what they are working from. I am 48, yet I will always be the ‘little brother’ to my sister who is six years older. Don’t know your situation, but for me that always seems to play a role.
😉
 
Thanks for all of your great advice. I am attending mass with my hubby’s aunt Sunday. I hope to keep reading and learning on my own for now. I guess I will have to wait to join RCIA till later this year from what I understand.

Justaservant-yes I am the youngest of three. My sis is 5 years older and my brother is 7 years older.
 
I am considering converting to the Catholic church. I grew up in the church of Christ. My sister has been pretty supportive of me, but lately has been bringing up everything she has heard about the Catholic church. I have tried giving her things I have read thus far, but I need help. Right now, purgatory and the books in the Catholic Bible that are not in the Protestant Bible are the issues on the table. Can you give me some advice on how to explain these things?
Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell
davidmacd.com/catholic/purgatory.htm

According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (Catechism 1030)

Here’s a simple illustration of what Catholics believe is Purgatory’s place in the scheme of things. (Due to the limitations of the forum software, I can’t re-produce the original graphic image seen at the website above. Please imagine an arrowhead at the end of the line pointing from Purgatory to Heaven, and ignore the dots I am forced to use as spacers.)

…Heaven (eternal)
…/
…/…
…/…
…Earth------>Purgatory (temporary)
…
…
…
…Hell (eternal)

Catholics believe that some people go straight to Heaven, which is also what Evangelicals believe. It would be very cool to go straight to Heaven. Let’s pray for each other for that. The Church believes that Purgatory is a place to clean up the effects of “Venial Sin” (not Mortal Sin which if un-repented, leads to eternal punishment - hell). If we were to put it in Evangelical terms, Purgatory would be where the backslider would get cleaned up before joining the wedding banquet of the Lord - so he wouldn’t be thrown out (Mat 22:12). For nothing unclean can enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27). Purgatory does not remove sin itself. Jesus did that on the Cross. Purgatory removes the effects of sin. An imperfect way to look at it is to think of a nail hammered into a piece of wood. My father would pull the nail out of the wood (sin) but there would still be a dent in the wood. Purgatory is the process of straightening out the wood (the effect of sin). Certainly Jesus can and does the clean up. He is a merciful God but he is also a ***just ***God.

People who rebelliously refuse to believe that Jesus is Lord and who do not yield to Him don’t go to Purgatory. They go to hell.

Articles on Purgatory

Purgatory

catholic.com/library/purgatory.asp

Purgatory
By Rev. William G. Most
catholic.com/thisrock/1992/9204chap.asp

**PURGATORY IN ALL BUT NAME **
By W. ROBERT ANFILL
catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9801fea2.asp

Is Purgatory Found in the Bible?
By Christine Pinheiro and Kenneth J. Howell
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0511sbs.asp

Purgatory? Where Is That in the Bible?
By Mark P. Shea
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0103fea2.asp

Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspectiveby Victor R. Claveau
freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2033423/posts

How to Argue the Existence of Purgatory
By Jason Evert
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp

How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants
by James Akin
ewtn.com/library/answers/how2purg.htm
 
Purgatory

What Purgatory is not

  • Purgatory is not a second chance.
  • Purgatory is not a place where the soul can do anything to cleans himself; all cleansing is done by God alone.
  • Purgatory is not a “third option” for people who are “too good” for heaven but “too bad” for heaven; there are only two destinations for those who have died: heaven or hell.
What is Purgatory?
  • Catechism of the Catholic Church
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

[1031](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1031.htm’)😉 The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

[1032](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/1032.htm’)😉 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
  • What are the temporal effects of sin?
  • Temporal effects of sin illustrated from scripture.
Madrid
The temporal effects of sin are best illustrated in Genesis 3:14-20, where God pronounces a series of maledictions against Adam and Eve, the serpent, and even the physical creation itself, all as a result of Adam and Eve’s disobedience: the original sin. The eternal penalty of their sin—hell—was something Christ atoned for on the cross, and Adam and Eve’s salvation and avoidance of that penalty was due to their faith in God’s promises and their subsequent obedience to His laws, but the temporal effects of sin remained. Enmity with the rest of nature, having to work to eat, labor pains for women, sickness, and eventually death, were all part of the punishments God permitted to fall upon Adam and Eve and all of us, their descendants. So when you, a born-again Christian, receive Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you correctly believe that He will forgive you of your sins and remit the eternal punishment they deserve. But you still are going to have to get up and go to work tomorrow, right? Your wife will still experience pain in childbirth; you may even someday be afflicted with cancer, or some other life-threatening disease. You might have a heart attack. And in the end you, like me and everybody else, will eventually suffer the greatest of the temporal punishments outlined in Genesis 3: You are going to die someday. Christ’s atoning sacrifice paid for your sins, but it didn’t wipe out the temporal effects, including the punishments I just mentioned of your sins.

There are other examples of the principle of temporal punishments due to sin that God does not even eliminate even when we repent and are forgiven of our sins.

For example, in 2 Samuel 12:14-14, we see the tragic case of King David. He had sinned by committing adultery and murder, and though the Lord forgave him when he repented, there were repercussions that followed which god did not alleviate. A form of restitution was still owed:

2 Samuel 12:13-14
13 David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die.”

Now, how does all this fit into the doctrine of purgatory? Purgatory is the place or state (however you’d like to think of it) in which the fire of God’s love purifies us from the temporal effects due to sin, which include any temporal punishments due to our sins.
 
Re Purgatory …

Does your sister think that if she died today that she would go to heaven?

If she does, ask her to take a good, hard, honest look at herself. I mean really honest, warts and all.

Now ask her to imagine heaven filled with millions and millions of people just like herself.

Then ask her how long it would be heavenly with so many people just like her.

Purgatory cleans up the parts of that picture she would not like. It is a process … not a place. Consider it the wash room at the door to the Banquet.
 
I am in RCIA (only 3 more weeks!) but I think I can at least simply answer this.

If you have a minute, please see The good side of purgatory from my blog. As circumstance would have it, I just wrote this post today.

Hang in there.
 
I am considering converting to the Catholic church. I grew up in the church of Christ. My sister has been pretty supportive of me, but lately has been bringing up everything she has heard about the Catholic church.
Well, the closer you get to entering the Church, the more concerned she will become, if she believes the Church is wrong/apostate.
Can you give me some advice on how to explain these things?
I highly recommend Alan Schreck’s book Catholic and Christian, which addresses many of these common misapprehensions in a loving and clear way. Good to read yourself and have for reference, good to give to someone who loves you and fears you’re falling into paganism . . .
 
I am considering converting to the Catholic church. I grew up in the church of Christ. My sister has been pretty supportive of me, but lately has been bringing up everything she has heard about the Catholic church. I have tried giving her things I have read thus far, but I need help. Right now, purgatory and the books in the Catholic Bible that are not in the Protestant Bible are the issues on the table. Can you give me some advice on how to explain these things?
SInce you grew up in the Church of Christ I would suggest that you get this book from Bruce Sullivan. He is a former Church of Christ minister who converted to the Catholic Church. It is an excellent read. It is called “Christ in His Fullness”
 
jgjamom, may God bestow much grace and many blessings upon you as you continue to seek the truth. You are more than welcome to send me a private message if you ever need to talk. In the peace of Christ – SonofMonica
 
OK, so the kids and I went to mass on Sunday with hubby’s aunt. I really only had one problem with the service. Is is common for women to participate in the service? All of the scripture was read by a woman and one of the people handing out communion (not sure if you call it that) was a woman.
 
OK, so the kids and I went to mass on Sunday with hubby’s aunt. I really only had one problem with the service. Is is common for women to participate in the service? All of the scripture was read by a woman and one of the people handing out communion (not sure if you call it that) was a woman.
This is the mass portion we call “Liturgy of the Word” and there is a formal rubric for how it is performed. The laity of either sex may be called on to assist in the first and second readings. Since Vatican II the Church has made a conscious effort to draw in the laity for more active participation in the mass. This at one time (if memory serves) was done by an ordained deacon or a co-celebrant priest or the priest.

On Sundays and solemnities, three Scripture “readings” are given. There is no interpretation or teaching so laity may read/lecture precisely as written in the approved Catholic bible translation. On other days there are only two readings. If there are three readings, the first is from the Old Testament, or the Acts of the Apostles during Eastertide. The first reading is followed by a Responsorial Psalm, a complete Psalm or a sizable portion of one. A lay cantor, choir or lector leads, and the congregation sings or recites a refrain. The second reading is from the New Testament, typically from one of the Pauline epistles.

After the readings in accord with the order of the mass (the rubrics) the gospel (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) appropriate for the church calendar day (each day has a formal list of readings since it all ties into Catholic daily prayers called Liturgy of the Hours said by religious and pious Catholics outside mass daily). The Gospel MUST be read and homilized (taught) by ONLY a consecrated priest (male) or deacon (male) or a bishop (male) (if one is visiting & presiding). Only an ordained clergy may teach since they have been formally educated in the apostolic faith for 6 or more years and anointed to that office to teach. Sometimes however, after the homily (at least always a short one) the priest may also permit a lay person (male or female) to come up and speak on other ecclesial matters of importance to the Church (secular events, school, financial budgets and personal testimonies pertinent to the church season/gospel etc.).

As far as handing out communion. Vatican II authorized the laity (male or female) to assist the priest in the distribution of communion to speed up the services. These are specially trained in the handling and reverence and are hand selected laity known for their reverence and piousness who are called Lay Eucharistic Ministers or Lay Extraordinary Ministers but are NOT ordained. Deacons being ordained may of course also distribute communion (or give blessings to children under age who have not received their 1st communion yet).

Hope that helps,
James
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top