Need help from Traditionalist Catholic Please

[KLJM12]

I am currently trying to find out whether or not Nostra Aetate is dogmatic. Can any Traditional Catholics help me please?

Are we allowed to hold the belief that Moslems and Jews do not worhip the same God as Catholics? Or is this along the same lines as denying the holocaust (which is explicitly condemned in NA, along with any form of anti-semitism)?

Gratias Multas et Dominus vobiscum

 

[bilop]

I am currently trying to find out whether or not Nostra Aetate is dogmatic. Can any Traditional Catholics help me please?

Are we allowed to hold the belief that Moslems and Jews do not worhip the same God as Catholics? Or is this along the same lines as denying the holocaust (which is explicitly condemned in NA, along with any form of anti-semitism)?

Gratias Multas et Dominus vobiscum

I am aware of no Church doctrine or dogma that defines what other religions believe. The Church typically defines only what she believes, not what others believe.

Vatican 2 defined no new doctrine or dogma. Any dogma taught was pre-existing.

God Bless

 

[Swiss_Guy]

I am currently trying to find out whether or not Nostra Aetate is dogmatic. Can any Traditional Catholics help me please?

Are we allowed to hold the belief that Moslems and Jews do not worhip the same God as Catholics? Or is this along the same lines as denying the holocaust (which is explicitly condemned in NA, along with any form of anti-semitism)?

Gratias Multas et Dominus vobiscum

I don’t see what would hold someone back from believing Muslims and Jews worship the Christian God, albeit in an imperfect way with imperfect knowledge.

Jews, Muslims and Christians all claim to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Therefore it only follows that all claim to worship the same God.

Jesus was a Jew.

 

[triumphguy]

Well a Pope and 2,221 bishops declared as Law the way the Church should relate to non-Christian religions in Nostra Aetate.

In her task of promoting unity and love among men, indeed among nations, she considers above all in this declaration what men have in common and what draws them to fellowship.

What is one of the tasks of the Church? To promote Unity among all people and nations.

Why?

One is the community of all peoples, one their origin, for God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth.(1) One also is their final goal, God. His providence, His manifestations of goodness, His saving design extend to all men,(2) until that time when the elect will be united in the Holy City, the city ablaze with the glory of God, where the nations will walk in His light.(3)

Because all people are one.
Because all people are made by god.
Because God is the final goal of all people.
Because God’s salvation extends to all people.

What does this mean?

1. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.

From the earliest times therefore people have always had hints of a hidden power, and some have recognized a “Supreme Being, or even a Father.”

Various world religions have sprung up and

The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

NA goes on to say that it “esteems” the Moslems, and holds the Jewish faith in a specail position of honour.

the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God’s saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham’s sons according to faith -are included in the same Patriarch’s call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people’s exodus from the land of bondage.

In summary:

We cannot truly call on God, the Father of all, if we refuse to treat in a brotherly way any man, created as he is in the image of God. Man’s relation to God the Father and his relation to men his brothers are so linked together that Scripture says: “He who does not love does not know God” (1 John 4:8).

Finally:

The Church reproves, as foreign to the mind of Christ, any discrimination against men or harassment of them because of their race, color, condition of life, or religion.

The document does not say that Catholics have to believe that other religions are equal in the revelation of Truth, nor that the Catholic Church does not hold the Fullness of Truth.

 

[KLJM12]

I don’t see what would hold someone back from believing Muslims and Jews worship the Christian God, albeit in an imperfect way with imperfect knowledge.

Jews, Muslims and Christians all claim to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Therefore it only follows that all claim to worship the same God.

Jesus was a Jew.

Jesus was not a follower of rabbinical judaism. He was indeed a Jew though. And what holds me back and is a stumbling block for me is how fervently both religions blaspheme God. How can one claim thattwo religions that blaspheme and deny God also worship that same God? This is where I am stuck.

 

[Melchior_1]

They worship an incomplete picture of the Trinity. At best, they know 2/3’s of it. Worse case, 1/3.

We crib the first part of our Old Testament directly from Jewish Scripture, that should tell you something.

 

[KLJM12]

---

I want to apologize to anyone who read my posts. I recant any statement that implied that Jews do not attempt to worship the One True God. I also revoke any statement that displayed a disrespect for Judaism.

I am very sorry.

God bless

 

[triumphguy]

I’ve learned lots by being wrong:thumbsup:

You have the openness of mind and heart and humility to learn though:thumbsup:

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Jesus was not a follower of rabbinical judaism. He was indeed a Jew though. And what holds me back and is a stumbling block for me is how fervently both religions blaspheme God. How can one claim thattwo religions that blaspheme and deny God also worship that same God? This is where I am stuck.

• You Samaritans worship what you do not know, we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.* - Jesus (John 4:22)

They may blaspheme God, but so do many Catholics.

 

[bilop]

• You Samaritans worship what you do not know, we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.* - Jesus (John 4:22)

They may blaspheme God, but so do many Catholics.

I think the complication is that modern Judaism is not the same religion that it was at the time of Christ.

Salvation came from the Jews, in the person of Christ, but that was achieved in ~33AD. Since that point, Judaism changed (Rabbinical Judaism instead of Temple Judaism) and no longer has any role in the plan of Salvation.

God Bless

 

[Swiss_Guy]

I think the complication is that modern Judaism is not the same religion that it was at the time of Christ.

Salvation came from the Jews, in the person of Christ, but that was achieved in ~33AD. Since that point, Judaism changed (Rabbinical Judaism instead of Temple Judaism) and no longer has any role in the plan of Salvation.

God Bless

True. But I think it still comes down to a) the Magisterium has said Muslims and Jews worship the same God, albeit imperfectly b) all claim to worship the God of Abraham, the same God.

 

[bzkoss236]

And once you realize that Jews worship the same God, the idea that Muslims worship the same God stems from that. Muslims believe that it was the descendants of the other son of Abraham, Ishmael, that were the chosen people instead of Isaac as we believe. So, Muslims believe in the same God as the God of Abraham, which is the same God as the Jews, which is the same God of Christianity.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

All the more reason for us to proselytize and convert Jews and Muslims to the one true faith

 

[PJM]

=KLJM12;10108033]I am currently trying to find out whether or not Nostra Aetate is dogmatic. Can any Traditional Catholics help me please?

Are we allowed to hold the belief that Moslems and Jews do not worhip the same God as Catholics? Or is this along the same lines as denying the holocaust (which is explicitly condemned in NA, along with any form of anti-semitism)?

Gratias Multas et Dominus vobiscum

DOGMATIC?

Absolutely not.

WHY? Becuse a Dogma is an Infallible proclaimation that MUST be delcared specifically and precisely as such. This is not.

Also in reading this document it seems to me to be dealing with “Church practice” far more than issues of Faith and or Morals. This to would disqualify it both a Doctrine and Dogma.

Yet because it is issued from the Chair of Peter; its message is to be taken to heart and given at least assent of our minds and wills. It seems to be only a call for unification of differing Faiths and discussion of the same.

I’m NOT a Canon Lawyer but that’s my take.

Can. 749 §1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.

§2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively.

§3. No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident.

We do believe in the “same God” HOWEVER NOT the same Savior!

God Bless,

pat/PJM

 

[Swiss_Guy]

All the more reason for us to -]proselytize/-] evangelize and convert Jews and Muslims to the one true faith

 

[triumphguy]

DOGMATIC?

Absolutely not.

WHY? Becuse a Dogma is an Infallible proclaimation that MUST be delcared specifically and precisely as such. This is not.

Also in reading this document it seems to me to be dealing with “Church practice” far more than issues of Faith and or Morals. This to would disqualify it both a Doctrine and Dogma.

Yet because it is issued from the Chair of Peter; its message is to be taken to heart and given at least assent of our minds and wills. It seems to be only a call for unification of differing Faiths and discussion of the same.

I’m NOT a Canon Lawyer but that’s my take.

Can. 749 §1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.

§2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively.

§3. No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident.

We do believe in the “same God” HOWEVER NOT the same Savior!

God Bless,

pat/PJM

How many infallible statements has the papacy ever made?

Two. The Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary.

I know you are not saying that nothing else the Popes have said throughout the ages should be believed.

Nor that we should exercise prudential judgment when listening to or reading everything else the Popes have promulgated?

As you stated above the Church demands a “submission of the intellect and will” to the “ordinary magisterium” of the Church.

The only way you can use prudential judgment with the Ordinary Magisterium is when Bishop A says one thing and Bishop B says something a bit different.

However, when a Pope and over 2000 bishops says the same thing…

Imagine this PJM the Pope says you must read Nostra Aetate and follow it. Then one after another 2000 bishops say to you you must read NA and submit your will and intellect to it.

That’s quite an impressive group saying the same thing.

Now along with NA we must also read Dignitatis Humanae (Of the Dignity of the Human Person) another decree of Vatican II.