Need help getting the head nod and bows right

[Lux_et_veritas]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

At Cyrils, we cross ourselves for the Glory Be, bow at the right time in the Creed and strike our breast once for “though my own fault”.

I’m trying to think if there is anything else.
Our welcoming committee is putting together a guide. If we get it together, would you like it?

That would be wonderful. Thanks!

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

rcn:

This has become a fad at my parish too.

I am honestly convinced that very few know why they are doing it, or whether they are supposed to (since we never did before) - I think it’s a big game of follow-the-leader (whoever the leader is/was). You can tell that people are paying more attention to “when to bow” or “when to nod” than to what they are praying. So far I’ve had nothing to do with it - I consider it all to be on a par with the dreaded “hand-holding” and other unofficial gestures. If it’s not in the missal, then we are not to do it. Period.

I don’t get this at all when I see people doing it. One has to really be tuned into what is being said and not drifting to engage. Of course, if I did look upon people doing it for the sole purpose of “follow the leader” I suppose I would be casting judgement on them.

God used a little girl of only about ten years of age over a two week period to teach me a lesson in humility, respect, and reverence. At first, I didn’t understand why I was captivated by her each morning prior to mass when she walked up in front of me to get a Latin Mass book where they lay in a basket on the communion rail. She would genuflect with such apparent sincerity and purposefulness, that it finally struck me one day. And, I say apparent because I could not know her intent by external actions, but I felt God using her to “school” me at the moment and wasn’t going to pay Him further disprespect by not learning the lesson.

I realized that one needs to pay respect to God and that requires humility. From that respect and humility come true reverence. At first when I began to genuflect deeply, and take on the bows and head nods, it was to conform and not stand out. But now, I focus intently on God when I do so, which was difficult at first, but not any more. I’m sure if I did any of these actions in parishes I’ve been in all my life, I would stand out (and probably be judged as being too devote or something).

While some can find reverence without the gestures, I was unable to in 43 years. But, when I found humility and paid respect, reverence simply happened. So I continue to look for more ways to show respect.

I think some of the people who accuse orthodox Catholics of being too judgemental of those who are not orthodox, are far more judgemental themselves. And, just six weeks ago, I would not have called myself an orthodox Catholic, and even myself engaged in poking fun and ridicule, so I have first hand experience. Is it just me?

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I think you may be mistaken…

The General Instruction also draws attention to the bowing of the head at certain times during the Mass. “An inclination of the head should be made when the three Divine Persons are named, at the name of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of the Saint in whose honor the Mass is celebrated” (GIRM 275)."

Thanks for posting this. I believe it answers my question. So, that explains why it happens at the Glory Be and other times when the three Divine Persons are named, and Jesus. But, I did not know about BVM and the Saint.

Now when the three Divine Persons are named outside of the Glory Be, is it just a head nod? I attend morning Lauds at Assumption Grotto and this is when we bow during the Glory Be and this includes all of the priests, and the roughly 20 laity who are there, and even those arriving early for mass.

On a similar note, I witnessed another sign of reverence. If a priest happens to be in one of the pews off to either side of the altar praying his devotions or breviary something else happens. I noticed that one of the priests came out and walked up to the tabernacle. He was removing a host into one of those things it is carried into for sick people. As soon as the one priest sitting there seen him approaching the tabernacle, down onto his knees he went, stopping his devotion and staring at the tabernacle. When the other priest was finished and walked out, he went back to sitting.

Again, while it seemed strange at first, I then realized it was yet another sign of respect - this time for the blessed sacrament. I did not witness any people going to their knees at this time, and that kind of puzzled me.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

tcraig:

Do you sing/say the Gloria and Credo in Latin at your church?

At my TLM parish, we bow our heads during certains parts of the Gloria. These are when saying: Adoramus te, Gratias agimus tibi, Jesu Christe, and Suscipe deprecationem.

During the Credo, we bow our head at Jesum Christum and simul adoratur.

I’m thinking these may be the “additional” bows you have noticed, since we also bow during the first part of “Gloria patri …” at the Asperges. This, however, is more of a bow from the waist, while the bows during the Gloria and Credo are simply head bows.

Yes, this is what it was - a bow from the waist during the first half of the “Gloria Patri…”, really at any time it is said - during Lauds or otherwise. In the Gloria it is just a head nod, but in the Credo, the congregation goes down in a full bow at the waste in those two lines.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Pariah Pirana:

And how is that different than a bishops who promotes the orans and/or hand-holding for the laity? Are you a Latin Rite Catholic? Because if you are, the “nationality” of your parish means nothing in this context.

By the way, the Tridentine Mass specifies* three* strikes of the breast. Is one strike specified for the normative Pauline Mass?

The reason we do three strikes in probably any Latin Mass is because we do still say,

“Mea Culpa. Mea Culpa. Mea Maxima Culpa!”

Whereas in the English translation, we only say it once, not three times. But I’ve often wondered if a single strike is still suggested in the GIRM.

 

[Elzee]

Lux_et_veritas:

When I was growing up, anytime the tabernacle was opened the entire congregation fell to their knees. This still happens in one parish where I live…not in mine, unfortunately.

 

[msproule]

Pariah Pirana:

By the way, the Tridentine Mass specifies* three* strikes of the breast. Is one strike specified for the normative Pauline Mass?

Actually, the number of strikes was no longer specified in the original 1970 Pauline Missal, but the gesture is still there. In the 1975 update, there was no specific mention of striking the breast at all. However, since there was never an explicit abolishment of this gesture in association with the Penitential Rite, it was simply understood that one did this while saying the words “mea culpa”. The 2003 GIRM employs the same simplistic language as in 1975, so to somebody who does not already know that the Penitential Rite includes striking one’s breast, it could be misleading. Why the specific language was removed is unclear, but I believe Canon Law states that unless something that was law is abrogated, it is still force of law.

For more clarification, the USCCB offered a bulletin insert to accompany the 2003 GIRM which clearly indicates the upheld practice of striking the breast.

 

[netmilsmom]

Pariah Pirana:

So “hold-overs” are OK?

Is that right? No limits to “hold-overs”?

Sounds rather hypocritical…

I want to enourage hold overs. All of them I can get.
What is wrong with the gestures and postures that we have been using, some for over a thousand years?

If you see it as hypocritical, try changing an ingredient in the Perogi my Grandmother made. It’s tradition. My sisters and I would have a fit.
However, if we try to find our Catholic roots, people slam us.

 

[mercygate]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I think you may be mistaken…

The General Instruction also draws attention to the bowing of the head at certain times during the Mass. “An inclination of the head should be made when the three Divine Persons are named, at the name of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of the Saint in whose honor the Mass is celebrated” (GIRM 275)."

Is this instruction for the people or only for the Celebrant?

I am a former Episcopalian. We did all that stuff, bowed for “Holy, holy holy;” bowed for “receive our prayer” in the Gloria, bowed for the Incarnatus in the Creed (which is in the misallettes but nobody does it) . . .

The difference between these ancient gestures and hand-holding is that these gestures have been part of our practice for centuries and were formerly in the rubrics; hand-holding is a novelty.

 

[msproule]

mercygate:

Is this instruction for the people or only for the Celebrant?

I think GIRM paragraph 275 is an instruction for all present, celebrants and faithful alike.

 

[Giannawannabe]

“Inclination of the head” does not mean a race to see who can double over at the waist, as far in advance of the proper moment as possible. This is what’s going on in my parish, and it looks absurd.

Are you talking about “bowing” during the Creed "?

 

[Giannawannabe]

Elzee:

I was always taught to bow my head at the name of Jesus. Our Bishop does this too I noticed.

I was also taught this. It is a sign of reverence and respect and I currently teach my First Communion students to do this as we say our rosary each week.

I have never heard of bowing your head at the name of Saints or BVM.

 

[mercygate]

msproule:

I think GIRM paragraph 275 is an instruction for all present, celebrants and faithful alike.

:clapping: :dancing:
Once these gestures become habitual, it is like praying with your whole body. BEAUTIFUL! And it definitely helps with concentration on the prayers.

 

[mercygate]

msproule:

I think GIRM paragraph 275 is an instruction for all present, celebrants and faithful alike.

I just looked it up. Yup. Sure looks like an instruction for everyone!

Why do we ignore these beautiful traditions which add so much depth to our experience of the Mass?

 

[msproule]

mercygate:

Why do we ignore these beautiful traditions which add so much depth to our experience of the Mass?

I wish I know why these traditions get seemingly suppressed. I assume that most people are simply uninformed. It is doubtful that so many can ignore or deny what is instructed, although there are certainly examples of that.

There are also times when the Instructions are made ambiguous. For example, striking one’s breast while saying “mea culpa” during the Penitential Rite is no longer explicit. However, it was never officially removed from the Penitential Rite. Logically then, it is still present, though implicitly. Those who are familiar with the Confiteor know it is there but those new to the Church (like me) do not.

Over time, by force of (incorrect) custom, this gesture of penance has become nearly non-existent in most parishes!

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I want to enourage hold overs. All of them I can get.
What is wrong with the gestures and postures that we have been using, some for over a thousand years?

If you see it as hypocritical, try changing an ingredient in the Perogi my Grandmother made. It’s tradition. My sisters and I would have a fit.
However, if we try to find our Catholic roots, people slam us.

It’s horribly hypocritical.

If something is not specified for the Mass being celebrated, adding-in a “hold-over” is just as wrong as adding in (for example) the orans or the hand-holding.

Your posting illustrates a huge problem I see with most self-described “traditionalists.” They decry things like hand-holding or the use of the orans (perhaps rightfully so) yet they encourage those things they feel are “good” or “better” than what the Church actually instructs.

That’s horribly wrong and it kills credibility.

 

[netmilsmom]

Pariah Pirana:

It’s horribly hypocritical.

If something is not specified for the Mass being celebrated, adding-in a “hold-over” is just as wrong as adding in (for example) the orans or the hand-holding.

Your posting illustrates a huge problem I see with most self-described “traditionalists.” They decry things like hand-holding or the use of the orans (perhaps rightfully so) yet they encourage those things they feel are “good” or “better” than what the Church actually instructs.

That’s horribly wrong and it kills credibility.

Well, that’s your opinion.

Here you must have missed this…

"There are also times when the Instructions are made ambiguous. For example, striking one’s breast while saying “mea culpa” during the Penitential Rite is no longer explicit. However, it was never officially removed from the Penitential Rite. Logically then, it is still present, though implicitly. Those who are familiar with the Confiteor know it is there but those new to the Church (like me) do not. "
by msproule

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I want to enourage hold overs. All of them I can get.
What is wrong with the gestures and postures that we have been using, some for over a thousand years?

If you see it as hypocritical, try changing an ingredient in the Perogi my Grandmother made. It’s tradition. My sisters and I would have a fit.
However, if we try to find our Catholic roots, people slam us.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Pariah Pirana:

It’s horribly hypocritical.

If something is not specified for the Mass being celebrated, adding-in a “hold-over” is just as wrong as adding in (for example) the orans or the hand-holding.

Your posting illustrates a huge problem I see with most self-described “traditionalists.” They decry things like hand-holding or the use of the orans (perhaps rightfully so) yet they encourage those things they feel are “good” or “better” than what the Church actually instructs.

That’s horribly wrong and it kills credibility.

There are two issues I have with this logic.

1. One assumes that customs not stated in the GIRM are no longer valid, as opposed to assuming that they are still in effect.
2. Handholding makes the people feel good. Nodding your head, bowing, striking the breast is aimed at respect towards God.

It is the very issue that I’ve been delving into the last few weeks of People-Centered Worship versus God-Centered Worship.

People-Centered Worship tends to become conditional worship. God-Centered Worship is unconditional.

 

[netmilsmom]

Lux_et_veritas:

People-Centered Worship tends to become conditional worship. God-Centered Worship is unconditional.

That’s really what it’s all about. Spot on!