Need Help In Answering a Baptist

[TrueLight]

Proverbs 25:2, “It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.”

We imitate the Holy Spirit . Mary imitates God by hiding in humility, for, “it is the glory of God to conceal a thing,” but we imitate the Holy Spirit, like kings, by revealing her, out of love. The Holy Spirit loves to reveal and glorify Mary, through His faithful servants. See the following story, for an example of this:

Wow. I am very impressed. I have never seen that verse used in support of Marian veneration. Deep!

I am reminded, as I look at this story, of many similar stories from the lives of the saints. The saints delight in hiding themselves for the glory of God. The Lord delights in then revealing His servants through His divine power!

St. Catherine of Siena and St. Teresa of Avila were bodily raised into the air in levitation, during ecstasy. They repeatedly asked the Lord to let them hide, to not levitate them, but He ignored their prayers. St. Catherine of Siena actually tied herself down, so she wouldn’t rise, but the Lord waited until she was walking in a courtyard before lifting her up visibly in the presence of many nuns. Teresa of Avila writes that God often exposes His faithful ones like this, after they have become extremely humble.

St. John Vianney tried to hide his miracles by always asking for them through the intercession of Saint Philomena, so that he could dodge the glory of having it known that he was working miracles. Whenever he was praised, he would point out St. Philomena and say it was her that made the useful intercession. However, sometimes, the Lord proved his sanctity by performing the miracle the instant St. John Vianney touched the sick person, before the saint had time to ask St. Philomena’s help. Thus the Lord proved to people that He loved to work through St. John, even though he tried to hide it.

St. Catherine of Siena received the visible stigmata, but she prayed that the Lord would make it invisible, out of humility. The Lord granted her prayer, but He said that He would make it visible to all upon her death. Then He fulfilled His promise, and when she died, her stigmata became visible to all.

Countless times these kinds of things are recorded in the lives of the saints. The saint hides, out of humility, and God reveals the saint, out of love. The saint even does his or her best to hide, but eventually the Lord blows their cover! Sometimes the saint even fights the Lord, like Catherine, trying to tie herself down so she wouldn’t levitate, and praying so that her stigmata would disappear, because they love humility, but the Lord blows their cover, regardless.

I remember reading about a saint who was falsely accused of many things in the city he lived in, but the Virgin Mary so cared for his honor that she appeared visibly to his accusers and told them how she loved him and how faithfully he served her. The saint’s honor was completely restored, but he fled the city, knowing how people would massively venerate him because of this. God exposed him through Mary; he fled through humility. But interestingly, God doesn’t usually give supernatural gifts to a person until she is humble enough to hide them, because He doesn’t want them to be tempted with pride. And He doesn’t “expose” the saint’s gifts until He is confident the saint will not fall.

This kind of back and forth between God and His saints could be called a “lovers’ quarrel,” if you will! It is a strange part of the mystical life one can see in the lives of many saints, including Mary and Jesus. It can be seen in how the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus Christ, even though Jesus hides. Jesus hides Himself behind the appearance of bread and wine, the perfect image of humility. When He was on Earth, He hid His divinity under the appearance of a normal man, a veil that was lifted briefly during the Transfiguration, when His apostles saw Him shining with glory.

Even though Jesus deliberately hides under the appearance of bread and wine, the Holy Spirit in us delights in revealing Jesus to others and glorifying Him perpetually. Mary hid, yet the Spirit revealed her too, in Luke 1 and Rev. 12, and He reveals her again and again to souls throughout history! And we glorify her, as the Spirit loved to do through His lovers. All the ages call her blessed, as the Spirit inspired her to say!

By revealing Mary, God can draw more people to Himself, because we will seek her intercession and delight in His magnificence as is made visible in Mary’s life and virtues.

The saints hide to not attract attention to themselves, but God reveals them because sometimes He can attract more attention to Himself through them, and also because He simply loves His faithful servants so much that He wants everyone to know how much He favors them, at times!

These are good examples. You have inspired me to study St. Catherine of Siena’s life.

However, I do have to say we have to be careful that it is God who is choosing to reveal and not man.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

These are good examples. You have inspired me to study St. Catherine of Siena’s life.

However, I do have to say we have to be careful that it is God who is choosing to reveal and not man.

Agreed. If someone speaks about his or her own spiritual gifts, openly and publicly, this is usually not a good thing. The saint would do his best to hide. Though occasionally it can be useful to share, in the course of evangelistic ministry, when we might convert others by telling what He has done for us.

God has certainly chosen to reveal the glories He has given the Virgin Mary, and we delight in responding in the same way Elizabeth did in Luke 1 . God also has chosen to glorify many other saints, in addition to Mary, even against their will. His Son also hid in life, much of the time. The first 30 years of His life are private and there is almost no record of what He did during that time, before His public ministry. Even after He was revealed, He was despised and hated by many. Yet God revealed Him to many in the Book of Acts, through the Holy Spirit. It was His will first to hide Him, then to afflict Him with the hatred of many, and finally to glorify Him. The lives of the saints often follow that pattern as well.

Mary was His most faithful follower of all, and her intercession is more useful to us than that of any other saint. Her life was most pleasing to God of any saint, also. She was the most humble, the most deliberately hidden, and God has raised her the highest. And we follow the example of Elizabeth in Luke 1, praising her in a great chorus throughout history; “all the ages call her blessed.” Even the prophets, who spoke of her before her birth.

Have you read about how Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, and how this is proven from Scripture? If not, do read this!
catholic.com/thisrock/2009/0905fea7.asp

God made the Ark of the Old Covenant central to the Hebrew religion, and it is an image of Mary.

Whenever it was taken into Jerusalem, the people celebrated, played the tambourine and danced for joy. That is how we respond to Mary! That is what you see in the veneration of Mary and in statues or images of her being carried in parades. We are behaving as the Israelites did before the Ark of the Old Covenant (2 Sam. 6:12-16), a symbol that is fulfilled in Mary. We rejoice before the Ark of the Lord and He that is in it, with glad abandon!

2 Sam. 6:12-16

12
When it was reported to King David that the LORD had blessed the family of Obed-edom and all that belonged to him, David went to bring up the ark of God from the house of Obed-edom into the City of David amid festivities.
13
As soon as the bearers of the ark of the LORD had advanced six steps, he sacrificed an ox and a fatling.
14
Then David, girt with a linen apron, came dancing before the LORD with abandon,
15
as he and all the Israelites were bringing up the ark of the LORD with shouts of joy and to the sound of the horn.
16
As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Saul’s daughter Michal looked down through the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, and she despised him in her heart.
17
The ark of the LORD was brought in and set in its place within the tent David had pitched for it. Then David offered holocausts and peace offerings before the LORD.

It pleased the Lord that the symbol of Mary, and the symbols of Him within it, were celebrated so abundantly, and it pleases Him still more when we delight in the fulfillment of this joyful celebration! So we celebrate Mary through festivities, parades and images, and song and dance, as in 2 Sam. 6, and with well deserved praise, such as that which is found on Elizabeth’s lips in Luke 1, because she deserves praise more than any other human except Christ, and God wants us to lavish love on her as best we can, in feeble imitation of His own outpouring of total love for her.

 

[TrueLight]

A

Have you read about how Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, and how this is proven from Scripture? If not, do read this!
catholic.com/thisrock/2009/0905fea7.asp

Yes, I’ve read this and all the verses that refer to Mary as being the Ark of the Covenant. I get that.

I still feel that if we are going to process through the streets, we should be processing with a statue of Christ. Our focus should be Christ.

Otherwise we risk looking as if we are celebrating a goddess.

Corpus Christi procession? I’ll be there!

Although I have to admit, it might look like we’re processing with a piece of bread.

So before you say, “See, that’s why you shouldn’t care what people think”, I’ve already said it.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Yes, I’ve read this and all the verses that refer to Mary as being the Ark of the Covenant. I get that.

I still feel that if we are going to process through the streets, we should be processing with a statue of Christ. Our focus should be Christ.

Otherwise we risk looking as if we are celebrating a goddess.

Corpus Christi procession? I’ll be there!

Although I have to admit, it might look like we’re processing with a piece of bread.

So before you say, “See, that’s why you shouldn’t care what people think”, I’ve already said it.

Well, then I guess there’s no need to say it again .

While non-Catholics who are ill informed about Catholicism might well criticize us for venerating our Lady openly, or worshipping the Eucharist openly, this serves as an opportunity to explain our beliefs to them better. And at the same time, I’m sure that such celebrations very much please the Lord!

 

[Bix]

Having grown up in a Baptist church, I have a few thoughts.

1. I seriously doubt you will be able to say or present anything to this woman which would actually cause her to even consider your point as valid. If she were the least bit open minded I would suggest some literature regarding Catholicism and how Mary is perceived. Particular attention being made to- a: she is not worshiped as God is, b: one is not required to pray through her to pray to God or Jesus. c: Catholics can and do pray directly to Jesus (this is probably her true contention).
2. I’m surprised to learn she doesn’t seem to know the history of the founding of her church (or maybe, I’m confused and was instructed differently…)

A side note, which I’m sure she would argue is not the same (It’s not; however, I’ve always found it curiously similar) but still interesting - many infants are presented to the church at a special time during service by the preacher.

I would suggest when speaking with her, the best approach being one from a place of acceptance ( that she is a Christian and would strive not going into, there is only one Church- initially) I say this respectfully…