Need help in Catholic vs Non-denom debate

[mab23]

Help -

Michael, obedience is a reflection of salvation, not a means to salvation. We cannot save ourselves.

“But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of r
ighteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.” -Titus 3:4-7

If you read Titus chapter 3 in context you will see that he says we must be obedient because it is good, excellent, and profitable to everyone. He doesn’t say that obedience is what keeps you saved. On the contrary he says that it is His mercy through Jesus Christ that saves us.

Ephesians 2:8-10 also confirms that it is not our works or anything that we do that saves us, but it is by faith alone that we are saved.
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

2 Timothy 1:8-10 also confirms that above that it is not our works that saves us, but only by Jesus Christ we are saved.

"by the power of God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. "

If you truly love the Lord, you will follow Him and be obedient to Him. He gives us free will, so we can choose to continue in our faith of Him and serve the Lord, or we can choose to walk away and lose our salvation. No one can snatch us out of His hands, but we do have the choice to walk away. Why anyone would do that after truly knowing the Lord is hard to understand, but there are some who do.

So what I’m trying to say is that yes we are saved by grace through faith (as you stated above), however FAITH doesn’t = WORKS (and obeying is works). So that is where the Catholic church leads people astray in thinking that they must work to earn their salvation.

**

• it doesnt make sense to me - shes saying the obediance comes from faith

but obediance is also works in which we are NOT saved

her view of the Catholic church is wrong**

 

[MidnightSun12]

How is “obeying” works? If that was the case, then all of those baptized babies who die before reaching the age of reason (who are now in heaven) must have been doing work without even knowing what they were doing.

If anything, it’s sin that requires work. Sin takes us out of the natural state that we were meant to be in, sin causes us to feel drained and spent and makes our lives vastly more complicated.

 

[cnon12]

Just off the top of my head (and I’d appreciate if anyone else could fill in the blanks if I missed anything)

As a starting point, have you asked their opinion on the following:

James 2:14-26
(NIV Translation)
14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, **and his faith was made complete by what he did.**and his faith was made complete by what he did.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that —and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together,and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”** and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Moving on to Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

And then again, in the same chapter Matthew 25:31-46, the parable of the sheep and the goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ”

From my understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches, we agree that no one can work their way into Heaven, it is only through God’s grace and His grace alone that we are saved. Agreed, Faith does not equal works, in fact, in Ephesians 2:8, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–”, and we agree. But if you’re taking the Bible as a whole, then you can’t ignore James and these examples from Matthew, then you’ll see that Faith needs to be accompanied with works, not to boast or earn, but because you can’t have one without the other.

Referring back to James
Verse 14: “What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? "
Verse 26"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.”**

 

[ahs]

Michael, obedience is a reflection of salvation, not a means to salvation. We cannot save ourselves.

No, we can’t save ourselves. But, as Christ, in Matt 7:21, points out…not all who cry “Lord, Lord” are saved…but those who do the will of God (obedience). Also see Mk 19:16-17, Jn 14:21, Rev 20:12-13…for starters.

So what I’m trying to say is that yes we are saved by grace through faith (as you stated above)…

Saved by Grace through Faith+Works. Faith without works is dead. Jam 2:14-26, Eph 2:8-10, Gal 5:4-6, etc…

…however FAITH doesn’t = WORKS…

Correct…yet one without the other is dead/empty.

So that is where the Catholic church leads people astray in thinking that they must work to earn their salvation.

The Church does not teach this. She teaches exactly what is written in the Scripture…Saved by Grace through Faith+Works.

You might get some good insight in some tracts here ( at Catholic.com homepage). Karl Keating and others have put together some wonderful apologetics tracts that will help in your debate. Just go to the homepage and type in a keyword…

 

[MarcoPolo]

Non-denominational believers often have a different hermeneutic when it comes to the Bible telling us we can’t save ourselves from our own works. The problem is this - when we are incorporated into Christ, he raises us up from that position of futile work we previously dwelt. Christ graces us. We have his life flowing through us. He is the vine and we are the branches (John 15), receiving our nourishment from him. Thus, when we bear fruit, no it isn’t “our” work properly speaking, but it is his work flowing through us. We are capacitated beyond a mere “human” work. Your friend must understand something he apparently does not: that in Catholic theology, it is not “our” works in competition with Christ’s work. When your friend condemns the salvific value of a work done in grace, he’s not condemning a mere “human” work, but he’s condemning the power of Christ’s grace itself! Also, faith-works is a singular concept. Faith is active, it works through love (Gal. 5:6). Refer also to James 2:26 mentioned earlier: *As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. *

 

[fhansen]

Obedience is a reflection of how we’ve been changed, because it’s a reflection of how we love God and neighbor , which constitutes our true justice or righteousness. It doesn’t come from us and yet we must cooperate in accepting, maintaining and increasing it. Reference Luke 12:48, The Parable of the Talents, and Matt 25:31-46. We’re judged on what we do with what we’re given.

 

[mab23]

I composed this - I took a lot from what you guys posted - because of your knowledge and ability to articulate what I wanted to say -

Yes I agree with you that obediance is a reflection of salvation - not a means

I agree with you up Until you pull out Ephesians 2:8-10 -

prior to posting the passage you wrote that this passage “confirms that it is not our works or anything that we do that saves us
but it is by faith alone”

Its funny that you chose to put “Faith Alone” considering only part you will find Faith
and Alone next to eachother in the bible is

James 2:24 You see that a person is considered righteous
by what they do and not by faith alone.

Lets look more at what James has to say - James 2:14-26
(NIV Translation)

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds?
Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about
their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, and his faith was made complete by
what he did.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe
that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that —and shudder.

20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not
our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the
altar? 22 {{{You see that his faith and his actions were working together,and his faith was made
complete by what he did}}}. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God,
and it was credited to him as righteousness,”** and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see
that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by {{faith alone}}.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did
when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Now lets jump to Matthew
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does
the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Now lets read some more Matthew 25:31-46 with the parable of the sheep and the goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. ”

Now at the end you say Faith doesn’t = works - Amen I say to you but one without the other is empty

you furthur say that The Catholic church - the most united Christian denomination and largest in number leads its members astray - now that is simply not true. this whole Faith / Works argument you presented is a common Protestant polemic - now Im speaking to you as an EX non-denom Christian - I know the the arguments because I struggled with the same false accusations

Now from my undertanding the Catholic churches teaching, we agree that no one can work their way into heaven
. Only through God’s Grace and by His grace alone that we are saved - We agree, Faith does not = works as you pointed out in
Ephesians 2:8 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God”

although if you are taking the Bible as a whole, you just can’t ignore James and these examples from Matthew,
you can clearly see that Faith needs to be accompanied with works, not to boast or earn, but because you can not have one without the other

I will leave the Catholic church Tonight, if you can show me where in the Catechism (the official teaching of the Catholic church) it says we have to work our way to heaven,

but I know you can’t - because it doesn’t - The Catholic church does not now, nor has it ever , taught a doctrine of Salvation by works …that
we can “work” our way to heaven**

 

[Gamera]

Catholics agree that we cannot save ourselves. “Salvation by works” has twice been condemned as heresy by the Catholic Church. Your friend simply doesn’t understand Catholic teaching. We agree that we are saved by grace through faith.

 

[onemangang]

Maybe this will help in providing answers in regards to justification

Canons On Justification

Canon 1. If anyone shall say that man can be justified before God by his own works which are done either by his own natural powers, or through the teaching of the Law, and without divine grace through Christ Jesus: let him be anathema .

Canon 2. If anyone shall say that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may more easily be able to live justly and merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he were able to do both, though with difficulty and hardship: let him be anathema.

Canon 3. If anyone shall say that without the anticipatory inspiration of the Holy Spirit and without His assistance man can believe, hope, and love or be repentant, as he ought, so that the grace of justification may be conferred upon him: let him be anathema.

Canon 4. If anyone shall say that man’s free will moved and aroused by God does not cooperate by assenting to God who rouses and calls, whereby it disposes and prepares itself to obtain the grace of justification, and that it cannot dissent, if it wishes, but that like something inanimate it does nothing at all and is merely in a passive state: let him be anathema.

Canon 5. If anyone shall say that after the sin of Adam man’s free will was lost and destroyed, or that it is a thing in name only, indeed a title without a reality, a fiction, moreover, brought into the Church by Satan: let him be anathema.

Canon 6. If anyone shall say that it is not in the power of man to make his ways evil, but that God produces the evil as well as the good works, not only by permission, but also properly and of Himself, so that the betrayal of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul: let him be anathema.

Canon 7.- If anyone shall say that all works that are done before justification, in whatever manner they have been done, are truly sins or deserving of the hatred of God, or that the more earnestly anyone strives to dispose himself for grace, so much the more grievously does he sin: let him anathema.

Canon. 8. If anyone shall say that the fear of hell, whereby by grieving for sins we flee the mercy of God or refrain from sinning, is a sin or makes sinners worse: let him be anathema.

Canon 9. If anyone shall say that by faith alone the sinner is justified, so as to understand that nothing else is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification, and that it is in no way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will: let him be anathema.

Canon 10. If anyone shall say that men are justified without the justice of Christ by which He merited for us, or that by that justice itself they are formally just: let him be anathema.

Canon 11. If anyone shall say that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of grace and charity, which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Spirit and remains in them, or even that the grace by which we are justified is only the favor of God: let him be anathema.

Canon 12. If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that itis this confidence alone by which we are justified: let him be anathema.

Canon 13. If anyone shall say that it is necessary for every man in order to obtain the remission of sins to believe for certain and without any hesitation due to his own weakness and indisposition that his sins are forgiven him: let him be anathema.

Canon 14. If anyone shall say that man is absolved from his sins and justified, because he believes for certain that he is absolved and justified, or that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified, and that by this faith alone absolution and justification are perfected: let him be anathema.

Canon 15. If anyone shall say that a man who is born again and justified is bound by faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestined: let him be anathema.

Canon 16. If anyone shall say that he will for certain with an absolute and infallible certainty have that great gift of perseverance up to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation: let him be anathema.

Canon 17. If anyone shall say that the grace of justification is attained by those only who are predestined unto life, but that all others, who are called, are called indeed, but do not receive grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil: let him be anathema.

Canon 18. If anyone shall say that the commandments of God are even for a man who is justified and confirmed in grace impossible to observe: let him be anathema.

Canon 19. If anyone shall say that nothing except faith is commanded in the Gospel, that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free, or that the ten commandments in no way pertain to Christians: let him be anathema. Canon 20. If anyone shall say that a man who is justified and ever so perfect is not bound to observe the commandments of God and the Church, but only to believe, as if indeed the Gospel were a mere absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observation of the commandments: let him be anathema.
**
Canon 21**. If anyone shall say that Christ Jesus has been given by God to men as a Redeemer in whom they should trust, and not also as a legislator, whom they should obey: let him be anathema.

Canon 22. If anyone shall say that he who is justified can either persevere in the justice received without the special assistance of God, or that with that [assistance] he cannot: let him be anathema.
**
Canon 23.** If anyone shall say that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he who falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the contrary, that throughout his whole life he can avoid all sins even venial sins, except by a special privilege of God, as the Church holds in regard to the Blessed Virgin: let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone shall say, that justice received is not preserved and also not increased in the sight of God through good works but that those same works are only the fruits and signs of justification received, but not a cause of its increase: let him be anathema.

Canon 25. If anyone shall say that in every good work the just one sins at least venially, or (what is more intolerable) mortally, and therefore deserves eternal punishments, and that it is only because God does not impute those works unto damnation that he is not damned, let him be anathema.

Canon 26. If anyone shall say that the just ought not to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God and the merit of Jesus Christ for the good works which have been performed in God, if by doing well and in keeping the divine commandments they persevere even to the end: let him be anathema.

Canon 27. If anyone shall say that there is no mortal sin except that of infidelity, or that grace once received is not lost by any other sin however grievous and enormous, except the sin of infidelity: let him be anathema.

Canon. 28. If anyone shall say that together with the loss of grace by sin faith also is always lost, or that the faith that remains is not a true faith, though it be not a living one, or that he, who has faith without charity, is not a Christian: let him be anathema.

Canon 29. If anyone shall say that he who has fallen after baptism cannot by the grace of God rise again; or that he can indeed recover lost justice, but by faith alone without the sacrament of penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church, taught by Christ the Lord and His apostles, has hitherto professed, observed, and taught: let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone shall say that after the reception of the grace of justification, to every penitent sinner the guilt is so remitted and the penalty of eternal punishment so blotted out that no penalty of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in the world to come in purgatory before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened: let him be anathema.

Canon 31. If anyone shall say that the one justified sins, when he performs good works with a view to an eternal reward: let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone shall say that the good works of the man justified arein such a way the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him who is justified, or that the one justified by the good works, which are done by him through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (whose living member he is), does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life (if he should die in grace), and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

Canon 33. If anyone shall say that because of this Catholic doctrine of justification as set forth by the holy Synod in this present decree, there is in some degree a detraction from the glory of God or from the merits of Jesus Christ our Lord, and that the truth of our faith, and in fact the glory of God and of Jesus Christ are not rather rendered illustrious: let be anathema

 

[cnon12]

Catholics agree that we cannot save ourselves. “Salvation by works” has twice been condemned as heresy by the Catholic Church. Your friend simply doesn’t understand Catholic teaching. We agree that we are saved by grace through faith.

Definitely 100% agree, we do not work our way into Heaven.

Would you be able to point me in the direction of where this was condemned as heresy? I’m looking to add to my list of references so I can call upon this little fact when required

Thanks and God Bless!!

 

[cnon12]

Maybe this will help in providing answers in regards to justification

Canons On Justification

Canon 1. If anyone shall say that man can be justified before God by his own works which are done either by his own natural powers, or through the teaching of the Law, and without divine grace through Christ Jesus: let him be anathema .

Canon 2. If anyone shall say that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may more easily be able to live justly and merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he were able to do both, though with difficulty and hardship: let him be anathema.

Canon 3. If anyone shall say that without the anticipatory inspiration of the Holy Spirit and without His assistance man can believe, hope, and love or be repentant, as he ought, so that the grace of justification may be conferred upon him: let him be anathema.

Canon 4. If anyone shall say that man’s free will moved and aroused by God does not cooperate by assenting to God who rouses and calls, whereby it disposes and prepares itself to obtain the grace of justification, and that it cannot dissent, if it wishes, but that like something inanimate it does nothing at all and is merely in a passive state: let him be anathema.

Canon 5. If anyone shall say that after the sin of Adam man’s free will was lost and destroyed, or that it is a thing in name only, indeed a title without a reality, a fiction, moreover, brought into the Church by Satan: let him be anathema.

Canon 6. If anyone shall say that it is not in the power of man to make his ways evil, but that God produces the evil as well as the good works, not only by permission, but also properly and of Himself, so that the betrayal of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul: let him be anathema.

Canon 7.- If anyone shall say that all works that are done before justification, in whatever manner they have been done, are truly sins or deserving of the hatred of God, or that the more earnestly anyone strives to dispose himself for grace, so much the more grievously does he sin: let him anathema.

Canon. 8. If anyone shall say that the fear of hell, whereby by grieving for sins we flee the mercy of God or refrain from sinning, is a sin or makes sinners worse: let him be anathema.

Canon 9. If anyone shall say that by faith alone the sinner is justified, so as to understand that nothing else is required to cooperate in the attainment of the grace of justification, and that it is in no way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will: let him be anathema.

Canon 10. If anyone shall say that men are justified without the justice of Christ by which He merited for us, or that by that justice itself they are formally just: let him be anathema.

Canon 11. If anyone shall say that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of grace and charity, which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Spirit and remains in them, or even that the grace by which we are justified is only the favor of God: let him be anathema.

Canon 12. If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that itis this confidence alone by which we are justified: let him be anathema.

Canon 13. If anyone shall say that it is necessary for every man in order to obtain the remission of sins to believe for certain and without any hesitation due to his own weakness and indisposition that his sins are forgiven him: let him be anathema.

Canon 14. If anyone shall say that man is absolved from his sins and justified, because he believes for certain that he is absolved and justified, or that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified, and that by this faith alone absolution and justification are perfected: let him be anathema.

Canon 15. If anyone shall say that a man who is born again and justified is bound by faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestined: let him be anathema.

Canon 16. If anyone shall say that he will for certain with an absolute and infallible certainty have that great gift of perseverance up to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation: let him be anathema.

Canon 17. If anyone shall say that the grace of justification is attained by those only who are predestined unto life, but that all others, who are called, are called indeed, but do not receive grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil: let him be anathema.

Canon 18. If anyone shall say that the commandments of God are even for a man who is justified and confirmed in grace impossible to observe: let him be anathema.

Canon 19. If anyone shall say that nothing except faith is commanded in the Gospel, that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free, or that the ten commandments in no way pertain to Christians: let him be anathema. Canon 20. If anyone shall say that a man who is justified and ever so perfect is not bound to observe the commandments of God and the Church, but only to believe, as if indeed the Gospel were a mere absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observation of the commandments: let him be anathema.
**
Canon 21**. If anyone shall say that Christ Jesus has been given by God to men as a Redeemer in whom they should trust, and not also as a legislator, whom they should obey: let him be anathema.

Canon 22. If anyone shall say that he who is justified can either persevere in the justice received without the special assistance of God, or that with that [assistance] he cannot: let him be anathema.
**
Canon 23.** If anyone shall say that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he who falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the contrary, that throughout his whole life he can avoid all sins even venial sins, except by a special privilege of God, as the Church holds in regard to the Blessed Virgin: let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone shall say, that justice received is not preserved and also not increased in the sight of God through good works but that those same works are only the fruits and signs of justification received, but not a cause of its increase: let him be anathema.

Canon 25. If anyone shall say that in every good work the just one sins at least venially, or (what is more intolerable) mortally, and therefore deserves eternal punishments, and that it is only because God does not impute those works unto damnation that he is not damned, let him be anathema.

Canon 26. If anyone shall say that the just ought not to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God and the merit of Jesus Christ for the good works which have been performed in God, if by doing well and in keeping the divine commandments they persevere even to the end: let him be anathema.

Canon 27. If anyone shall say that there is no mortal sin except that of infidelity, or that grace once received is not lost by any other sin however grievous and enormous, except the sin of infidelity: let him be anathema.

Canon. 28. If anyone shall say that together with the loss of grace by sin faith also is always lost, or that the faith that remains is not a true faith, though it be not a living one, or that he, who has faith without charity, is not a Christian: let him be anathema.

Canon 29. If anyone shall say that he who has fallen after baptism cannot by the grace of God rise again; or that he can indeed recover lost justice, but by faith alone without the sacrament of penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church, taught by Christ the Lord and His apostles, has hitherto professed, observed, and taught: let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone shall say that after the reception of the grace of justification, to every penitent sinner the guilt is so remitted and the penalty of eternal punishment so blotted out that no penalty of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in the world to come in purgatory before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened: let him be anathema.

Canon 31. If anyone shall say that the one justified sins, when he performs good works with a view to an eternal reward: let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone shall say that the good works of the man justified arein such a way the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him who is justified, or that the one justified by the good works, which are done by him through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (whose living member he is), does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life (if he should die in grace), and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

Canon 33. If anyone shall say that because of this Catholic doctrine of justification as set forth by the holy Synod in this present decree, there is in some degree a detraction from the glory of God or from the merits of Jesus Christ our Lord, and that the truth of our faith, and in fact the glory of God and of Jesus Christ are not rather rendered illustrious: let be anathema

Thank you for this

Thanks and God Bless!!!

 

[Philthy]

Michael, obedience is a reflection of salvation, not a means to salvation.

This is not always true. There are plenty of atheists who are “obedient” to the command to “love thy neighbor” in many visible ways. Does that make their obedience a “reflection of salvation”? No, it does not.

We cannot save ourselves.

This is correct. But we most definitely can earn condemnation by failing to do “the good works that God has prepared in advance” for us to walk in.

“But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.” -Titus 3:4-7

Paul is describing the past event of salvation (he saved us) here - their conversion to Christianity and initial salvation in Baptism (washing of rebirth…). Our initial entrance into the family of God is entirely without works of any kind. That is what Paul is speaking of here:* initial* salvation. This does not speak of our ongoing salvation - the Christian life and persevering in the faith. Your friend is mistakenly applying this verse about initial salvation (past tense, “have been saved”) to the entirety of salvation - our ongoing and future salvation (the ongoing Christian walk and perseverance in faith, final judgement and, ultimately Heaven). Being “saved” and going to Heaven are related, but they are not the same thing! Our goal is not merely to have been saved, but to persevere in salvation and to ultimately go to Heaven. He is assuming that Paul’s description of initial salvation should be applied to our entire lives. Wrong! When one makes that mistake they make nonsense of most of the New Testament - including the rest of Ephesians…read on…

If you read Titus chapter 3 in context you will see that he says we must be obedient because it is good, excellent, and profitable to everyone. He doesn’t say that obedience is what keeps you saved. On the contrary he says that it is His mercy through Jesus Christ that saves us.

OK, first thing - when someone qualifies their interpretation of Scripture according to their assessment of reading it “in context” your ears should prick up. What he’s really saying is that even though Ephesians appears to say one thing, that he has interpreted it to mean something else. This is usually done to keep intact his understanding of a particular verse such as the one above. In short he is rationalizing what the rest of Ephesians says in order to justify his “salvation is by faith alone” stance. Lets take a look at what Paul says to these “saved, justified” Ephesians just a few short chapters later, shall we? From Ephesians 5:

"Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones…Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient. "

So then among those who were “saved” by grace Paul now warns them that immorality and impurity or greed - which amounts to idolatry - can forfeit their inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Does that sound like an eternal consequence? You bet. Do you suppose they’ll be going to Heaven if they don’t heed that advice? Paul doesn’t. Paul says that the “wrath of God” is coming upon whom? The unfaithful? The unbelievers? Nope, he says it’s coming upon the disobedient. It’s perfectly clear, and easy to reconcile. The gift of salvation is free but we have a duty to live (by grace) a life of loving god and neighbor in order to remain in Him and ultimately go to Heaven. Failure to do so has eternal, salvific consequences. But your friend has taken these verses “in context” to mean something else and he has done so to preserve the “salvation is by faith alone” mantra. In his mind being “faithful” and being “obedient” are different things…they aren’t!

So what I’m trying to say is that yes we are saved by grace through faith (as you stated above), however FAITH doesn’t = WORKS (and obeying is works). So that is where the Catholic church leads people astray in thinking that they must work to earn their salvation.

Obedience is not a work and even if it were it is Paul who says that it is a requirement to having an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Being obedient is being faithful. Just remember that Paul speaks of “having been saved”, of “being saved” and of “hoping to be saved”: past, present and future salvation. And when he addresses the present and future salvation of his churches his language is much more stern than his opening addresses which often begin with praise and recollections of the powerful anointing received by them when they first converted to Christianity. Then he addresses the issues of their communities that he is aware of which put them in jeopardy of losing their salvation. It’s true here in Ephesians 5 (above) and reiterated clearly in 1Cor 6 and Galatians 5 and other places.

 

[Nita]

Help -

Michael, obedience is a reflection of salvation, not a means to salvation. We cannot save ourselves.

**

• it doesnt make sense to me - shes saying the obediance comes from faith

but obediance is also works in which we are NOT saved

her view of the Catholic church is wrong**

I would ask the person to give his/her definition of “faith”. Those who say we are saved by faith alone usually have an incomplete understanding of what faith means/encompasses.

Eg. He may say faith means believing Jesus is God and that He died to save us.
And then accepting Him as his Lord and Savior.

Whereas, to believe in Jesus really means far more – it means to believe everything about Him. It encompasses believing every word He uttered, believing they are true, for He is truth and His words reveal “Him” - His person, so to speak;** His human soul and Divinity **(intellect,will).

To accept Jesus means more than just accepting His physical body, it means accepting His soul (intellect and will). It’s impossible to claim one has accepted Jesus while rejecting His soul - His mind/thinking/will.

Faith therefore means to believe and accept everything about Him - Divinity and human body and human soul. It means that when Jesus says " Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." etc. it means we accept it and act accordingly if we don’t want to end up in the fire.

Romans 1:5 “through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith…”
Obedience is part of true, saving faith.

 

[XianThinker]

Paul is describing the past event of salvation… Our initial entrance into the family of God is entirely without works of any kind.

Many Protestants I know believe that salvation can’t be lost. If that’s true, then one is saved by faith alone.

Many quote Ro 8:38-39 to show that nothing can take away our salvation. “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Many interpret it similar to Martin Luther who wrote, “No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.” (A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon, Letter 99, 1 August 1521).”

 

[ahs]

Many Protestants I know believe that salvation can’t be lost. If that’s true, then one is saved by faith alone.

Many quote Ro 8:38-39 to show that nothing can take away our salvation. “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Many interpret it similar to Martin Luther who wrote, “No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.” (A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon, Letter 99, 1 August 1521).”

Unfortunately, those who believe they are saved truly by “Faith Alone” believe something not only NOT in Scripture, but contrary to Christ’s own Words (and Paul’s as well). This happens when Paul’s words are taken out of context. Peter actually warns us about taking Paul’s words out of context in 2Pet 3:15-16. What Philthy has provided is Paul’s words understood in the context of Christ’s…not the other way around.

Do a search in the NT for references to beign cut off from the vine, etc… Then try to explain how one can be cut off from something which he is not already attached to. In other words, being grafted or born onto a “vine” is being saved (initial salvation). Yet, once there, we are admonished by Christ and Paul to be careful not to get ourselves cut off from it…meaning we can lose what we were given.

 

[jschutzm]

I don’t know if this helps… but this is my own question to those who believe in “faith alone”

Is not “faith” and “obedience” even the decision to accept Christ a ‘work’ ? – In the larger sense of the word?
Why is acceptance and belief not a ‘work’ but charity and love is?
Even if it is a one-time spiritual acceptance, that is still a ‘work’ because we are not merely disembodied souls…but we have a mind and a body. So you can not escape that the 2 are linked.

What we do with our body…also affects the soul. Remember that the bible teaches that if we sin with our body, we sin against our very selves. Notice that it doesn’t attempt to separate the 2 and say we ONLY sin with our body but our souls are still clean.

IF what I believe with my soul is at all linked to my body… then belief and doing works can not be separated. Because whatever I believe or have faith in… involves my body. If I can not separate the 2, then they are intrinsic and one.

What I believe influences what I DO. What I do, influences what I believe.

The Catholic view is holistic… the non-Catholic Christian view seems fragmented or at the very least… they seem to make an arbitrary distinction.

 

[Philthy]

Many Protestants I know believe that salvation can’t be lost.

Yes, I know. It is commonly referred to as “once saved always saved” (OSAS). They are sadly mistaken as the letters of Paul I referenced adequately demonstrate. We can fall from grace: Eph 5:3 You are separated from Christ, you who are trying to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. "

If that’s true, then one is saved by faith alone.

It’s true enough that our initial salvation is by grace through faith alone but that - alone - is not what keeps us in a state of grace so that when we die we will actually go to Heaven.

Many quote Ro 8:38-39 to show that nothing can take away our salvation. “For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Do you notice how the word “salvation” doesn’t even appear in this quote? They are confusing the “love of God” with salvation. God is love; God loves all of us and nothing we do changes that. Those who look to ambiguous references to salvation when there are abundantly clear ones that contradict it are not truly looking. Rom 2:
God…will repay everyone according to his works:%between% eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness… But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good…There is no partiality with God

Many interpret it similar to Martin Luther who wrote, “No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.” (A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon, Letter 99, 1 August 1521).”

I’m not sure what Luther is talking about here, but he also doesnt use the word salvation. Furthermore, he didn’t believe in OSAS and so, again, they are simply rationalizing to believe what they’d like to believe. Lastly, why does Luther recommend “Pray hard for you are quite a sinner” if one cannot lose their salvation?
I’m sorry but it just doesnt add up, but people will develop “itchy ears” and believe what they wish to believe.