Need Help in Debate - Catholic vs Born again - HELP!

[mab23]

**

We can see here that it is not our works that saves us, but our faith. Our works are a byproduct of what is going on in our hearts. Our faith is revealed in our works to mankind. God does not need our works in order deem us saved because He
can see our heart and whether or not we have faith. It is by faith alone in what Jesus Christ did on the cross that saves us.
The best evidence of this that I can give are the criminals that were nailed on the cross next to Jesus. One decided that He had faith in Jesus and therefore Jesus told him he was saved. The other criminal on the cross denied Christ and rejected Him and so was not saved.
Luke 23:39-43 “One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!”
“But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
“Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.f”
“Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

So if works and faith save you, then how could that thief be saved? He did not do any works and yet he had salvation. How did he have salvation? Because he had faith in Jesus Christ. God did not need to see any works from him to know he had faith because God can see the heart. He knew he had faith even without works. Works are evidence of faith to mankind. We can’t see the heart. Why does God even care if we show works? Because when people see works from those who have faith, then the glory is given to God. It is all for His glory.

*You answered my final question and by doing so have shot yourself in the foot. If you don’t know where you would go when you die today, then you don’t believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. By saying that, you don’t believe
that what He did on the cross was good enough. That His perfect sacrifice was able to save you from your sins. That is blasphemy my friend. That is denying the power of God and Jesus Christ His Son. ***
So you see the Catholic Church may not outright say that works are necessary for salvation, but they teach it in doctrine. You have admitted it right here, by saying “you can not be assured of your salvation.” Oh yes I can because I know Jesus lived a perfect life, that He died as a perfect sacrifice on the cross for all our sins, that He rose again and is alive. It is by His grace that we are saved. The Catholic Church does not out right write down that works saves you, but clearly that is what they teach as you have twisted scripture around to say that Jesus is not enough.
You may go on to say that I have no idea what I am talking about, but I have read numerous reports from priests who were pretty high up and have walked away from the Catholic Church and have stated that the Roman Catholic Church does imply with their teachings that you have to go to Mass and keep the sacraments and come to priests as a means of salvation. You say that I don’t know what I’m talking about and that many Catholics don’t even know what they believe, but I’m pretty sure anyone who studies for years to become a practicing priest in the Catholic Church knows what is being taught (indirectly or directly).
I know that whatever I say will not turn you away from your beliefs, but the only reason why I write to you is in hopes of planting a seed of truth in your heart and pray that someday God is able to speak truth to you.
You have mentioned many other things about the Catholic Church practices that I don’t feel the need to address because I have already addressed many of them in those past posts on Wade’s page that you had commented on. If you want to know how those things are incorrect that you stated, just look back to that abortion post he made.
The only thing I didn’t address was the part on how you think that it is Christ’s blood and flesh that you are eating. That is the easiest thing in the world to disprove. First off, when Christ did that first ceremony at the last supper He had not died yet, so how could it be His flesh and blood? God does not approve of cannibalism, so I’m pretty sure they were not chewing on Jesus’s flesh and drinking His actual blood. If I were to do a DNA test are you fully confident that it would show it is the blood and flesh of Christ? I think not.
So besides that the only other argument you made that I have not already addressed at some point was that you say to look at how many members and how big the Roman Catholic church is. That is a pretty lame excuse for me to follow something especially when Jesus said,
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” –Matthew 7:13-14.

Help I fellow Catholics , I need to rebute this, and im trying, but I need help articulating it, and anything you provide would be great!

***the main points of this argument seem to be

The theif saved on the Cross - was saved by faith without works ( although it was works for him to stand up for Jesus) and we are saved by faith through works

the Assurance of Salvation

and the Eucharist ***

 

[Chrish1975]

I find debating religion to be a waste of time. Live and let live is my philosophy.

 

[Jitterbug]

The Eucharist is a bit easier.

Reply with “He hadn’t died yet? So you’re saying God is bound by time? Also, It is Jesus, but he APPEARS under bread and wine. Looks like, tastes like…but It isn’t. God can do anything, including appear under bread and wine.”

“No. You cannot be assured of salvation because there’s always sins that one can commit that show total contempt. That makes one turn from God Totally.”

"Faith without works is dead. Just like works without faith is dead. He was saved because he had faith. And chances are, he would’ve reformed had he not died. Only God knows that. "

 

[pablope]

**

We can see here that it is not our works that saves us, but our faith. Our works are a byproduct of what is going on in our hearts. Our faith is revealed in our works to mankind. God does not need our works in order deem us saved because He
can see our heart and whether or not we have faith. It is by faith alone in what Jesus Christ did on the cross that saves us. **

 

[mab23]

I find debating religion to be a waste of time. Live and let live is my philosophy.

I asked for help not apathy - but thanks for the bump

The Eucharist is a bit easier.

Reply with “He hadn’t died yet? So you’re saying God is bound by time? Also, It is Jesus, but he APPEARS under bread and wine. Looks like, tastes like…but It isn’t. God can do anything, including appear under bread and wine.”

“No. You cannot be assured of salvation because there’s always sins that one can commit that show total contempt. That makes one turn from God Totally.”

"Faith without works is dead. Just like works without faith is dead. He was saved because he had faith. And chances are, he would’ve reformed had he not died. Only God knows that. "

nice

vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/infused-righteousness-versus-imputed-righteousness-which-one-entitles-us-to-enter-heaven/

 

[roselily]

Help I fellow Catholics , I need to rebute this, and im trying, but I need help articulating it, and anything you provide would be great!

***the main points of this argument seem to be

The theif saved on the Cross - was saved by faith without works ( although it was works for him to stand up for Jesus) and we are saved by faith through works

the Assurance of Salvation

and the Eucharist ***

I do not know much, but God is not human that we can not use human views to see God. It is only God alone is all the goodness, goodness, and goodness.

I see your thoughts; I knew that in life many things are not that simple. like if you see a coin you see it is has two side head and tail and it is same coin, and you could not say one side is right, and another side is wrong. it is not that simple. Think of it: Faith without works like people say they have faith and believe in God but still doing bad things, how could say surely have assurance of salvation? And at same time God mercy is greater than all the sin of the world, He Himself can have mercy on the one who repent if God see the heart like that theif saved on the cross. Oh, dear mab23, think the Eucharist that in 1Corinthians 11: 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, ‘This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’25In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.’ and also in** Matthew 26 **that believe!

Do not worry much, and remeber this, -listen to your heart. I have loved to walk in the nature and think and listen and then I could understand many things before I did not know, and listen, you will hear the answers. and believe.

 

[jfanning]

If we want to take literal interpretations as many born-agains do, how about the Last Supper? “This is my body” “This is my blood” Or is that the exception for them?

 

[JRKH]

We can see here that it is not our works that saves us, but our faith. Our works are a byproduct of what is going on in our hearts. Our faith is revealed in our works to mankind.

This is a true statement. Nothing to debate here.

God does not need our works in order deem us saved because He can see our heart and whether or not we have faith. It is by faith alone in what Jesus Christ did on the cross that saves us.

This makes no sense…If our faith is shown by our works…and we have no works then we have no (saving) faith…the only place where this would not be true is in the case of death immediately after conversion (no time for works).
It does not matter what “God needs”, for indeed God “needs” nothing. What matters is what that works are a manifestation of a living and saving faith.

The best evidence of this that I can give are the criminals that were nailed on the cross next to Jesus. One decided that He had faith in Jesus and therefore Jesus told him he was saved. The other criminal on the cross denied Christ and rejected Him and so was not saved.

And this is an example of a person who died immediately after conversion - no time for works to be manifest. But the commitment was there, which Jesus noted, and if the thief had been given the opportunity would have performed the sort of works spoken of in James’ Epistle…

So if works and faith save you, then how could that thief be saved? He did not do any works and yet he had salvation. How did he have salvation? Because he had faith in Jesus Christ. God did not need to see any works from him to know he had faith because God can see the heart. He knew he had faith even without works. Works are evidence of faith to mankind. We can’t see the heart. Why does God even care if we show works? Because when people see works from those who have faith, then the glory is given to God. It is all for His glory.

Let us take the two extremes of one who (like the thief) had a “deathbed conversion” and another who converts at 15 years old and lives to age 75.
It is obvious that the one who has a deathbed conversion has no works…Only faith (and commitment to Christ.) I will readily grant this with no problem
But let me ask the question…If the second person who lives 60 years as a Christian likewise has no works to show, is he also saved?
If you say that he is, then how could the Holy Spirit of God say, through James in his Epistle:
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. James chapter 2
But - if you say that, because in his 60 years has no works, he is not saved - that his faith is dead - then you must concede, with James that works are necessary. Even if they are only a demonstration of a living faith, they are still necessary.

You answered my final question and by doing so have shot yourself in the foot. If you don’t know where you would go when you die today, then you don’t believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. By saying that, you don’t believe that what He did on the cross was good enough. That His perfect sacrifice was able to save you from your sins. That is blasphemy my friend. That is denying the power of God and Jesus Christ His Son.

OP - you may have fallen victim to a very old “trick question”…
If you are (so far as you know) in a state of grace when a protestant asks this question (If you die today do you know where you will spend eternity?), you can say with full confidence, "YES I DO!! I believe that I will spend eternity…With God in heaven.
You may have to spend some time being purified in purgatory…but that is of little consequence…
It is only when you are (or strongly suspect) that you are in a state of mortal sin that you cannot be reasonably sure.

So you see the Catholic Church may not outright say that works are necessary for salvation, but they teach it in doctrine.

The bible “outright say(s) that works are necessary for salvation” so why should it NOT be a part of the doctrine of every Christian Church?
Certainly one can make allowances for “non-normative” circumstances such as deathbed conversions…But in any normative sense, unless one wishes to reject the Letter of James, works are an essential component of our salvation for works are a manifestation of a living and therefore saving faith.

You have admitted it right here, by saying “you can not be assured of your salvation.” Oh yes I can because I know Jesus lived a perfect life, that He died as a perfect sacrifice on the cross for all our sins, that He rose again and is alive. It is by His grace that we are saved. The Catholic Church does not out right write down that works saves you, but clearly that is what they teach as you have twisted scripture around to say that Jesus is not enough.

What the Church teaches is written down. In the Catechism, in the output of councils such as Vatican II, Trent etc and in other places…The Catechism itself is presented as a “Sure norm” for teaching the faith…
So - unless you can point to a clearly defined statement of the above bolded…then it is NOT what the Church teaches…
Now - that said, it may be that some have gotten that impression, but that something quite different from Church teaching which very clearly states (in the Catechism) that we are saved by faith.
Nowhere - in ANY Church document that I have ever seen does it say that “works” (apart from faith) save you.

You may go on to say that I have no idea what I am talking about, but I have read numerous reports from priests who were pretty high up and have walked away from the Catholic Church and have stated that the Roman Catholic Church does imply with their teachings that you have to go to Mass and keep the sacraments and come to priests as a means of salvation.

hhmmmm…Your sources are priests who have left the Church and then say that the Church "implies…interesting…
If you were debating with an atheist and he responded as above with, "I have read numerous reports from Christians who were pretty high up and have walked away from Christianity and have stated that the Bible and Christianity does imply… - would you not suggest to such a person that they read the bible themselves instead of taking the word of those who can only “imply” what is taught and meant?
I make the same suggestion to you. If you want to truly know what the Church teaches then read the Catechism. Then when others - even Catholics - make erroneous statements, you can direct them to actual Church teaching and not something that someone who is not in the Church “implies”.

You say that I don’t know what I’m talking about and that many Catholics don’t even know what they believe, but I’m pretty sure anyone who studies for years to become a practicing priest in the Catholic Church knows what is being taught (indirectly or directly).

Many - even most do - but some do not…and it seems these are the ones you have chosen to follow - why not read the others, like uummm - maybe John Henry Neumann? Fulton Sheen? Fr Barron? This might provide some balance for you…

I know that whatever I say will not turn you away from your beliefs, but the only reason why I write to you is in hopes of planting a seed of truth in your heart and pray that someday God is able to speak truth to you.

I thank you for this - I hope the same for you because, in our fallen state, we all struggle with both truth and error in our lives…Conversations like this can hopefully help both of us examine our beliefs and come ever closer to Christ.

mab23,
I know I did not address everything in the posting…but I hope that I gave you something to consider…Most importantly is this…
As you advance in your knowledge of the faith and skills as an apologist, you will hopefully avoid some of the pitfalls evident in the above. The thing we must do is to embrace the things that our separated brethren have right, while likewise pointing out, in charity, areas that are either flat out wrong or need to be more fully explored.
Many times I have found that we run into problems with terminology. We can each be using the same word but understand it very differently. So - try to be clear on understandings.
Secondly - always make them back up assertions of “Church teaching” with sources. many times - especially in arguments re: faith and works, they will offer a source that, upon fuller investigation shows that the church does not separate works from faith and so undercuts the argument that the Church teaches a works salvation…

Good luck as you continue learning…

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Just noticed that you are particularly concerned regarding his claims on the Eucharist…and the real presence being so “easily disproved”…
Let’s take it apart…

The only thing I didn’t address was the part on how you think that it is Christ’s blood and flesh that you are eating. That is the easiest thing in the world to disprove.

Oh - Yea??? - :slapfight:…:blackeye:…Hey a little levity never hurts…

First off, when Christ did that first ceremony at the last supper He had not died yet, so how could it be His flesh and blood?

If it was not his flesh and blood why did Jesus say that it was? Seems we have a “catch22” here…So - who should we believe, Jesus who said “This is my body…”, and teh Holy spirit who made sure that this was recorded and included in Scripture…
OR should we believe those who want to constrain Almighty God to “time” and “space” and say that he couldn’t be in two places at once…or under two forms at once???

God does not approve of cannibalism, so I’m pretty sure they were not chewing on Jesus’s flesh and drinking His actual blood.

You are “pretty sure”???
Considering that Jesus clearly says that unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life in you…and St Paul says that if you eat and drink without properly discerning the body and blood that you eat and drink “Judgement on yourselves”…you had better be a bit more than “pretty sure”…

The issue about cannibalism was addressed recently by someone else on another thread (which I don’t seem to find) but it essentially equated it to the Passover Lamb. God’s instructions to the Jews in Egypt was to kill the unblemished lamb, Smear the blood over the door and then eat the lamb - now if they did everything except eat the lamb, what would have happened? They would have awoke to find their firstborn male child dead. Jesus is the new passover lamb sacrificed for us - and we must eat the passover Lamb.
I have not expressed it as well as he did…but I hope it gives some help…

If I were to do a DNA test are you fully confident that it would show it is the blood and flesh of Christ? I think not.

Again - you choose to limit almighty God to mere “human tradition”. Jesus said at one point that he could raise up sons of Abraham from the very stones and later he said if his followers were silent that “even the stones would cry out”…If this is possible, why not the real presence under the appearance of bread and wine???

Hope this helps a little…

Peace
James

 

[Hypnotoad]

I don’t really understand why the Eucharist is such a scandal to so many Christians. Christ came to fulfill the law not destroy it. The Passover sacrafice had conditions that had to be met, conditions God Himself put in place.

OT Passover Sacrifice:

1. Had to be a male lamb
2. Without blemish
3. Sacrificed for sin.
4. It had to be completley consumed.

If any of these conditions werent met then the sacrifice wasn’t vaild. Likewise we have in the NT Passover Sacrifice:

1. Christ male, Lamb of God.
2. Without sin.
3. Sacrificed for sin.
4. Completley consumed in the Eucharist.

Christ didn’t institute the Eucharist in the Last Supper because He wanted a fancy symbol; He did it because He (being God) knew it was the only way his Sacrifice could be valid per the conditions He set up in the OT and because it is the only way we could receive His sacrifice since there is no other way we could completely consume Christ.

[BIBLEDRB]john 6:54-59[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[jpink1019]

**

We can see here that it is not our works that saves us, but our faith. Our works are a byproduct of what is going on in our hearts. Our faith is revealed in our works to mankind. God does not need our works in order deem us saved because He
can see our heart and whether or not we have faith. It is by faith alone in what Jesus Christ did on the cross that saves us.
The best evidence of this that I can give are the criminals that were nailed on the cross next to Jesus. One decided that He had faith in Jesus and therefore Jesus told him he was saved. The other criminal on the cross denied Christ and rejected Him and so was not saved.
Luke 23:39-43 “One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!”
“But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
“Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.f”
“Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

So if works and faith save you, then how could that thief be saved? He did not do any works and yet he had salvation. How did he have salvation? Because he had faith in Jesus Christ. God did not need to see any works from him to know he had faith because God can see the heart. He knew he had faith even without works. Works are evidence of faith to mankind. We can’t see the heart. Why does God even care if we show works? Because when people see works from those who have faith, then the glory is given to God. It is all for His glory.

***You answered my final question and by doing so have shot yourself in the foot. If you don’t know where you would go when you die today, then you don’t believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. By saying that, you don’t believe
that what He did on the cross was good enough. That His perfect sacrifice was able to save you from your sins. That is blasphemy my friend. That is denying the power of God and Jesus Christ His Son. *****
So you see the Catholic Church may not outright say that works are necessary for salvation, but they teach it in doctrine. You have admitted it right here, by saying “you can not be assured of your salvation.” Oh yes I can because I know Jesus lived a perfect life, that He died as a perfect sacrifice on the cross for all our sins, that He rose again and is alive. It is by His grace that we are saved. The Catholic Church does not out right write down that works saves you, but clearly that is what they teach as you have twisted scripture around to say that Jesus is not enough.
You may go on to say that I have no idea what I am talking about, but I have read numerous reports from priests who were pretty high up and have walked away from the Catholic Church and have stated that the Roman Catholic Church does imply with their teachings that you have to go to Mass and keep the sacraments and come to priests as a means of salvation. You say that I don’t know what I’m talking about and that many Catholics don’t even know what they believe, but I’m pretty sure anyone who studies for years to become a practicing priest in the Catholic Church knows what is being taught (indirectly or directly).
I know that whatever I say will not turn you away from your beliefs, but the only reason why I write to you is in hopes of planting a seed of truth in your heart and pray that someday God is able to speak truth to you.
You have mentioned many other things about the Catholic Church practices that I don’t feel the need to address because I have already addressed many of them in those past posts on Wade’s page that you had commented on. If you want to know how those things are incorrect that you stated, just look back to that abortion post he made.
The only thing I didn’t address was the part on how you think that it is Christ’s blood and flesh that you are eating. That is the easiest thing in the world to disprove. First off, when Christ did that first ceremony at the last supper He had not died yet, so how could it be His flesh and blood? God does not approve of cannibalism, so I’m pretty sure they were not chewing on Jesus’s flesh and drinking His actual blood. If I were to do a DNA test are you fully confident that it would show it is the blood and flesh of Christ? I think not.
So besides that the only other argument you made that I have not already addressed at some point was that you say to look at how many members and how big the Roman Catholic church is. That is a pretty lame excuse for me to follow something especially when Jesus said,
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” –Matthew 7:13-14.

Help I fellow Catholics , I need to rebute this, and im trying, but I need help articulating it, and anything you provide would be great!

***the main points of this argument seem to be

The theif saved on the Cross - was saved by faith without works ( although it was works for him to stand up for Jesus) and we are saved by faith through works

the Assurance of Salvation

and the Eucharist ***

why are you trying to rebuttal this?

 

[jpink1019]

I do not know much, but God is not human that we can not use human views to see God. It is only God alone is all the goodness, goodness, and goodness.

I see your thoughts; I knew that in life many things are not that simple. like if you see a coin you see it is has two side head and tail and it is same coin, and you could not say one side is right, and another side is wrong. it is not that simple. Think of it: Faith without works like people say they have faith and believe in God but still doing bad things, how could say surely have assurance of salvation? And at same time God mercy is greater than all the sin of the world, He Himself can have mercy on the one who repent if God see the heart like that theif saved on the cross. Oh, dear mab23, think the Eucharist that in 1Corinthians 11: 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, ‘This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’25In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.’ and also in** Matthew 26 **that believe!

Do not worry much, and remeber this, -listen to your heart. I have loved to walk in the nature and think and listen and then I could understand many things before I did not know, and listen, you will hear the answers. and believe.

My intention is not to be confrontational however you mention here not to worry.
And I wanted to point out that if indeed we were all serious about our christian faith then
we need to consider when scripture tells us to work out our faith in fear and trembling.
I will be honest and say that there haven’t been too many times where I felt real fear regarding my faith, not many people take their faith so seriously these days. Recently I have been praying that my faith would be so real to me that I can fully relate to that passage in scripture which tells christians that they need to work out their faith in fear and trembling. Why wouldn’t we?

 

[Swiss_Guy]

We can see here that it is not our works that saves us, but our faith. Our works are a byproduct of what is going on in our hearts. Our faith is revealed in our works to mankind.

What if we don’t have those works as a byproduct? Are we saved then?

God does not need our works in order deem us saved because He
can see our heart and whether or not we have faith. It is by faith alone in what Jesus Christ did on the cross that saves us.
The best evidence of this that I can give are the criminals that were nailed on the cross next to Jesus. One decided that He had faith in Jesus and therefore Jesus told him he was saved. The other criminal on the cross denied Christ and rejected Him and so was not saved.
Luke 23:39-43 “One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!”
“But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
“Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.f”
“Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Herein lies the difference. Your friends understanding of salvation is that it is just a “declaration”-- "God doesn’t need our works to deem us saved. In Catholic doctrine, salvation is a process that goes on in our soul where God infuses faith hope and charity. Maybe your friend doesn’t realize this but the repentant thief on the cross could’ve had faith but just not said anything. But it was the charity in his heart and the hope of his salvation in Christ that compelled him to ask Christ to remember him when He comes into his Kingdom.

So if works and faith save you, then how could that thief be saved? He did not do any works and yet he had salvation. How did he have salvation? Because he had faith in Jesus Christ. God did not need to see any works from him to know he had faith because God can see the heart. He knew he had faith even without works. Works are evidence of faith to mankind. We can’t see the heart. Why does God even care if we show works? Because when people see works from those who have faith, then the glory is given to God. It is all for His glory.

Is not repenting to Christ a work?

***You answered my final question and by doing so have shot yourself in the foot. If you don’t know where you would go when you die today, then you don’t believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. By saying that, you don’t believe
that what He did on the cross was good enough. That His perfect sacrifice was able to save you from your sins. That is blasphemy my friend. That is denying the power of God and Jesus Christ His Son. ***

How does he know your heart? He just claimed above that he doesn’t, yet now he says that you don’t believe Christ is the only way to salvation. But also, you can be very confident that you are going to heaven because of Christ’s death and Resurrection and your love of him and more importantly his love for you, but you can never be 100% absolutely sure. To believe otherwise would be presumptuous and conceited that you know the judgment of God.

So you see the Catholic Church may not outright say that works are necessary for salvation, but they teach it in doctrine. You have admitted it right here, by saying “you can not be assured of your salvation.” Oh yes I can because I know Jesus lived a perfect life, that He died as a perfect sacrifice on the cross for all our sins, that He rose again and is alive. It is by His grace that we are saved. The Catholic Church does not out right write down that works saves you, but clearly that is what they teach as you have twisted scripture around to say that Jesus is not enough.

First sentence is contradictory. The Catholic Church outright says works are necessary for salvation because it is doctrine. The problem is that your friend thinks works are entirely our own effort, not the Holy Spirit working in us urging us to do what is right. We are just “keeping in step with the Spirit” (Galatians 5:25).

I think you made a mistake by telling him you can’t be assured of your salvation. That contradicts 1 John 5:13. You should tell him you were wrong about that. But you are right in that you don’t know God’s judgment so that you can say that there is no shot you are going to hell. You can be confident, but you can’t be 100% sure.

And certainly Jesus is enough! It is by the grace Christ won for us on the holy Cross that we are saved. His grace alone. It is his grace working in us that gives us the works, and our merits are just Christ working in us.

You may go on to say that I have no idea what I am talking about, but I have read numerous reports from priests who were pretty high up and have walked away from the Catholic Church and have stated that the Roman Catholic Church does imply with their teachings that you have to go to Mass and keep the sacraments and come to priests as a means of salvation. You say that I don’t know what I’m talking about and that many Catholics don’t even know what they believe, but I’m pretty sure anyone who studies for years to become a practicing priest in the Catholic Church knows what is being taught (indirectly or directly).

So what that some priests decide to turn from the faith? (I mean it is a sad thing, but how is this supposed to help his argument?) How many pastors who were “pretty high up” walked away from being Evangelical to become Catholic? Has he heard of Scott Hahn?

I know that whatever I say will not turn you away from your beliefs, but the only reason why I write to you is in hopes of planting a seed of truth in your heart and pray that someday God is able to speak truth to you.
You have mentioned many other things about the Catholic Church practices that I don’t feel the need to address because I have already addressed many of them in those past posts on Wade’s page that you had commented on. If you want to know how those things are incorrect that you stated, just look back to that abortion post he made.
The only thing I didn’t address was the part on how you think that it is Christ’s blood and flesh that you are eating. That is the easiest thing in the world to disprove. First off, when Christ did that first ceremony at the last supper He had not died yet, so how could it be His flesh and blood? God does not approve of cannibalism, so I’m pretty sure they were not chewing on Jesus’s flesh and drinking His actual blood. If I were to do a DNA test are you fully confident that it would show it is the blood and flesh of Christ? I think not.
So besides that the only other argument you made that I have not already addressed at some point was that you say to look at how many members and how big the Roman Catholic church is. That is a pretty lame excuse for me to follow something especially when Jesus said,
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” –Matthew 7:13-14.

That’s the same reason why you are writing to him. Ah, so he’s prochoice? Does he believe murder is a sin? Maybe he doesn’t believe an embryo is human Why is the Incarnation of Christ such a big deal then?

It’s not so easy to disprove the Mass. First, God is not limited by time. So you can’t disprove it by saying Christ didn’t die “yet”. The same flesh and blood the 12 ate at the Last Supper is the same flesh and blood you have every Mass–Christ’s glorified Body and Blood. Christ’s glorified Body and Blood is no ordinary body and blood, I think he should agree with that, so that rules out cannibalism. Second, he misunderstands Catholic doctrine by assuming DNA tests would show it’s body and blood. Transubstantiation states that the bread and wine become the Body and Blood in substance, but the appearance (so DNA testing would prove it bread and wine) stays the same. Christ can make himself appear as bread and wine if he wants to. Just look at all the times that Christ wasn’t his “normal” self after his Resurrection.

So maybe he doesn’t buy the argument about the Church’s catholicity. But maybe he should look at how often the Church is attacked by the whole world, Evangelical secular Muslim, etc. The whole world hated Christ, so why would it be any different about his Body?

Help I fellow Catholics , I need to rebute this, and im trying, but I need help articulating it, and anything you provide would be great!

***the main points of this argument seem to be

The theif saved on the Cross - was saved by faith without works ( although it was works for him to stand up for Jesus) and we are saved by faith through works

the Assurance of Salvation

and the Eucharist ***

Hope I helped even though I’m not Catholic.

–We are saved by faith through/and works.

–We can be assured of salvation, but not 100% sure

–Eucharist he just doesn’t quite understand.

Most importantly, be charitable, since it is by our love that the world will know we are Christ’s.

 

[sambos671]

**

We can see here that it is not our works that saves us, but our faith. Our works are a byproduct of what is going on in our hearts. Our faith is revealed in our works to mankind. God does not need our works in order deem us saved because He
can see our heart and whether or not we have faith. It is by faith alone in what Jesus Christ did on the cross that saves us.
The best evidence of this that I can give are the criminals that were nailed on the cross next to Jesus. One decided that He had faith in Jesus and therefore Jesus told him he was saved. The other criminal on the cross denied Christ and rejected Him and so was not saved.
Luke 23:39-43 “One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!”
“But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
“Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.f”
“Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

So if works and faith save you, then how could that thief be saved? He did not do any works and yet he had salvation. How did he have salvation? Because he had faith in Jesus Christ. God did not need to see any works from him to know he had faith because God can see the heart. He knew he had faith even without works. Works are evidence of faith to mankind. We can’t see the heart. Why does God even care if we show works? Because when people see works from those who have faith, then the glory is given to God. It is all for His glory.

***You answered my final question and by doing so have shot yourself in the foot. If you don’t know where you would go when you die today, then you don’t believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. By saying that, you don’t believe
that what He did on the cross was good enough. That His perfect sacrifice was able to save you from your sins. That is blasphemy my friend. That is denying the power of God and Jesus Christ His Son. *****
So you see the Catholic Church may not outright say that works are necessary for salvation, but they teach it in doctrine. You have admitted it right here, by saying “you can not be assured of your salvation.” Oh yes I can because I know Jesus lived a perfect life, that He died as a perfect sacrifice on the cross for all our sins, that He rose again and is alive. It is by His grace that we are saved. The Catholic Church does not out right write down that works saves you, but clearly that is what they teach as you have twisted scripture around to say that Jesus is not enough.
You may go on to say that I have no idea what I am talking about, but I have read numerous reports from priests who were pretty high up and have walked away from the Catholic Church and have stated that the Roman Catholic Church does imply with their teachings that you have to go to Mass and keep the sacraments and come to priests as a means of salvation. You say that I don’t know what I’m talking about and that many Catholics don’t even know what they believe, but I’m pretty sure anyone who studies for years to become a practicing priest in the Catholic Church knows what is being taught (indirectly or directly).
I know that whatever I say will not turn you away from your beliefs, but the only reason why I write to you is in hopes of planting a seed of truth in your heart and pray that someday God is able to speak truth to you.
You have mentioned many other things about the Catholic Church practices that I don’t feel the need to address because I have already addressed many of them in those past posts on Wade’s page that you had commented on. If you want to know how those things are incorrect that you stated, just look back to that abortion post he made.
The only thing I didn’t address was the part on how you think that it is Christ’s blood and flesh that you are eating. That is the easiest thing in the world to disprove. First off, when Christ did that first ceremony at the last supper He had not died yet, so how could it be His flesh and blood? God does not approve of cannibalism, so I’m pretty sure they were not chewing on Jesus’s flesh and drinking His actual blood. If I were to do a DNA test are you fully confident that it would show it is the blood and flesh of Christ? I think not.
So besides that the only other argument you made that I have not already addressed at some point was that you say to look at how many members and how big the Roman Catholic church is. That is a pretty lame excuse for me to follow something especially when Jesus said,
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” –Matthew 7:13-14.

Help I fellow Catholics , I need to rebute this, and im trying, but I need help articulating it, and anything you provide would be great!

***the main points of this argument seem to be

The theif saved on the Cross - was saved by faith without works ( although it was works for him to stand up for Jesus) and we are saved by faith through works

the Assurance of Salvation

and the Eucharist ***

You ask a good question and it can be answered by first defining what you mean when you say “saved” or “justified”. Here is the issue many protestants look at salvation as one thing and that thing is the attaining heaven. Rarely do they understand salvation in its full scope. Salvation is inclusive of many things. Think for intance ( a poor example to be certain) of a man drowning in the sea and off in the distance he sees his salvation coming to him in the form of a boat. Now the man in the boat offers his hand to the drowning man and it is at this point the man is faced with a choice to either accept that hand or not accept that hand. Once that hand is accepted the drowning man is now pulled aboard the boat and both start rowing towards shore which awaits them with the promise of security, warmth, good food, and joyful fellowship. At any point in that voyage if the man stops the progress towards that shore or worse to jump out into the famliar waters the man will not make it to shore. In this poor example to explain salvation protestants stop at the point of accepting the hand given and say because the man in the boat will pull up the other man into the boat the drowning man has in fact made it to shore. But is that the truth? No. The man has yet to reach the shore though he is saved from drowning in the immediate sense he will be saved in the permament sense once he arrives at the shore. In a way that is how the Catholic Church (from my perspective looks at salvation). You are right we cannot attain salvation on our own it must be given to us by the grace of God. However, once in the ark of salvation (boat), what are we saved for to remain in sin? No. Contrarily to do good works Eph 2:10, and to be transformed through out our lives into the very image of Jesus Christ Romans 12:2, and to grow in holiness (sanctification). We are to avoid the apperance of sin I Thessalonians 5:22; II Corinthians 6:17, sin itself lI Timothy 2:21, and give ourselves to service of God John 13:12-17. This to is part of our salvation. God’s intent isn’t to just get us to heaven though it certainly is part of it but to restore us to what he intended from the very begining which includes our works because now we are free to do them. Before being brought into the ark of salvation nothing we could do would earn us salvation because God would then owe it to us Romans 4:4. But once we are in the ark of Salvation we can acheive Gods good pleasure as we allow him to work in us by his grace Philippians 2:13. However, Faith may have brought us into the ark of salvation to begin with but that kind of faith must be evidenced in what we do to be the saving kind the kind that justifies us

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? **Was not Abraham our father justified by works **when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.
(James 2:18-26 ESV)

. Thus a Catholic holds that he is saved (man pulled from drowning), and is being saved (on the boat headed for shore), and will be saved (reaching land and rejoicing at the reception meal.). One final note. If we take our salvation for granted at any point we starve ourselves from Christ and when a person is without food for too long what happens? He dies. John 5:4-7. Note the person who does not remain in Christ in Johns Gospel passage is pruned and thrown into the fire which represents hell.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You know, there is only ONE place in all Scripture where we find the words ‘faith alone’ used. It’s in a letter from St James. Here it is: James 2:24:
Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith alone?

Also St Paul speaks of three things: Faith, hope, and charity (love). What does he say is the greatest of these three? LOVE. Not faith. LOVE.

I mean, we’re using Scripture here, and Scripture itself claims that ‘faith alone’ does not justify, and Scripture itself notes that the greatest of the three gifts is LOVE, not faith.

As Fr Mitch Pakwa pointed out the other day, your BA friend is not reading what the Scriptures actually say, in context. together. He is taking out bits and pieces and trying to force them to fit into a teaching he has cobbled together from those bits, while ignoring the bits that don’t ‘fit’ into his interpretation.

 

[roselily]

My intention is not to be confrontational however you mention here not to worry.
And I wanted to point out that if indeed we were all serious about our christian faith then
we need to consider when scripture tells us to work out our faith in fear and trembling.
I will be honest and say that there haven’t been too many times where I felt real fear regarding my faith, not many people take their faith so seriously these days. Recently I have been praying that my faith would be so real to me that I can fully relate to that passage in scripture which tells christians that they need to work out their faith in fear and trembling. Why wouldn’t we?

:hug1:-You are right, Dear jpink.

:angel1:
-Are you fear regarding your faith , jpink?


Ah, jpink! I was thinking that our Lord tell us be wise as serpents and innocent as doves, and that in Philippians 4 -6,7 say that 'Do not worry about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus and that it is why I say do not worry.

**Philippians 4
6Do not worry about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.7And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Proverbs 12
25 Anxiety weighs down the human heart,
but a good word cheers it up.

Matthew 6
33But strive first for the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.34 ‘So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today’s trouble is enough for today.

Matthew 10
19When they hand you over, do not worry about how you are to speak or what you are to say; for what you are to say will be given to you at that time;20for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

1Peter 5
6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, so that he may exalt you in due time.7Cast all your anxiety on him, because he cares for you.

Psalm 55
22 Cast your burden on the Lord,
and he will sustain you;
he will never permit
the righteous to be moved.

**