Need help on a Religion question

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I am Catholic and my girlfriend is a Baptist. We got into this discussion last night about heaven and hell. I was completely blown away on what she believes. Help me out here.

She believes that once a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior, they automatically will go to heaven when they die no matter what they do.

So I said “If you commit a murder and you were saved 5 years ago, you automatically go to heaven?” She replied “Yes” Then I said “Oh, then you asked God his forgiveness for the crime you committed”. She said “You don’t have to, you were saved 5 years ago.”

I lost it. So, in other words, once you accept Jesus Christ as your savior as a Baptist, you can do whatever you want without atoning for your sins after you committed the crimes. You have an automatic entry into Heaven? She replied “Yes, Jesus died for our sins 2000 yrs ago and you do not have to do anything”. Now that is a messed up belief in my book.

I am a Catholic. I was baptisized at birth to get rid of Original sin
(Adam and Eve).
We commit a Mortal sin (say killing someone), we have to go to confession and ask God for his forgiveness through a priest. The priest then gives you a penance of prayers to do and most likely recommends you turn your self in to the authorities. Once we do our penance, we are forgiven, and if we died, we would go to heaven.

Bottom line is, Baptists can do what they want without remorse or asking forgiveness from God and still go to Heaven because Jesus died for our sins 2000 yrs ago? What a load of bull. I cannot believe that people think like this.

Any Baptists out there? This is driving me nuts! This cannot be the way they think.
 
outfctrl said:
I am
She believes that once a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior, they automatically will go to heaven when they die no matter what they do.
.
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I am not even getting in the middle of an argument between bf and gf, and I have no idea what all Baptists believe, although I have a pretty good idea what the Baptists I encounter here in SoTex believe. Some accept this exactly as you state, some qualify it in various ways. for example, to be truly born again you have to demonstrate fidelity to Christ and his commandments in your way of living, and if you do not, it means you were not really converted to begin with. one example.

However gf and others who profess this, shorthand OSAS, once saved always saved, are making a fundamental error.
Such a person who relies on this belief is declaring himself saved, upon his own authority, upon his own interpretation of Scripture, or that of a preacher of a denomination who claims to do so upon his own authority, relying on no higher authority, no teaching office of any earthly body, simply subjective experience, opinion and interpretation.

These same persons, moreover, vehemently criticize the Catholic Church for daring to make infallible assertions about who is actually saved, actually in heaven, and actually has sin and its just punishment remitted, forgiven, absolved, paid for through sacramental confession, through indulgences, through merit gained in cooperating with Christ’s grace and the action of the Holy Spirit.

The fundamental error arises, in my personal opinion, through denial of the communal nature of sin and its effect. This is surprising in folks who generally speaking are very bible literate and must surely be familiar with Christ’s clear commandment to reconcile each and every offense with our brothers.
 
puzzleannie said:
Some accept this exactly as you state, some qualify it in various ways. for example, to be truly born again you have to demonstrate fidelity to Christ and his commandments in your way of living, and if you do not, it means you were not really converted to begin with.
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So, in other words, that person was never really saved and would go to hell for his crime.
 
outfctrl said:
So, in other words, that person was never really saved and would go to hell for his crime.
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That’s what I think too…I’ve posed this question to some who believe “OSAS” (once saved, always saved).

Their answers were all similar. If you were truly saved and redeemed by Christ, you would not be able to commit sins because when you have the life of Christ residing in you, your love of the Savior would stop you from harming someone in the first place; you would see others as images of Christ…Refer to **1 Peter 4: **

*1Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. 5But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, **but live according to God in regard to the spirit. ***
*7The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. 8Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. *

At least that’s what I’ve been told by Christians who believe in OSAS.

As far as the “little” sins we all are guilty of on a daily basis refer to 1 John 1:5-10 for their answer to that paying special attention to verse 7…that’s where they back up the OSAS view:

*5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. **7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. ***8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
 
Thank you so much. I love this woman with all my heart, but her relatives are questioning us. They say a good relationship cannot happen unless you have a mutual Fellowship. I am not quite sure what that means, but they are saying since I am not a born again Christian, our relationship will fail.

I try so hard to understand their logic and I cant seem to get it. I have been a Catholic my whole life, gone to Catholic schools, 1st communion, confirmation, Stations of the Cross, Confessions and attended Mass. My Mother is Catholic and my Father was Jewish (he passed away around 11 years ago) He used to go to mass with us too, but kept his jewish faith. Why is it so hard for a Baptist to accept a Catholic? Why?

I admit, I have strayed from my faith for years and now and I want to renew my love for Christ.
I am a Biker that drinks hard, rides hard and chases women with a passion. I struggle with my lifestyle now on a daily basis since I met her. This woman I am seeing is bringing back the goodness I once had. I question everything I do.

This fellowship thing her relatives talk about has me totally confused.
 
They say: Mutual Fellowship.

What they mean: YOU must denouce your Catholic Faith: Mary, the Saints, the Pope, the Eucharist, Confession, The Rosary, Advent, Lent, Stations of the Cross… all of it - out the door & become Baptist. (which will mean getting re-baptized because they don’t belive your first baptism meant diddly).

I promise you… that’s it in a nutshell.

My advice friend: Find yourself a nice Catholic girl who will also help bring out the goodness in you without all the false teachings of her religion - unless you want your future children to be raised Baptist - thinking that if they “accpet” Jesus at age 5 they can do whatever they please???
 
outfctrl said:
They say a good relationship cannot happen unless you have a mutual Fellowship. I am not quite sure what that means, but they are saying since I am not a born again Christian, our relationship will fail.
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Outfctrl, I am a former Southern Baptist who converted to the Catholic faith shortly before marrying a Catholic precisely because I believed that it was important that any children we had should grow up in a home with a single religious tradition. Quite unexpectedly, I discovered that I had found Christ’s true Church, and I have never looked back.

What your prospective in-laws are telling you is that you and your fiancee must share the same beliefs; in other words, you must be “born again” (that is, to have a cathartic conversion experience) and convert to the Baptist faith. Their understanding of being “born again” is flawed.

As a cradle Catholic, your parents had you baptized as an infant; thus did the Church claim you as Her own, and thus were you granted spiritual regeneration and filial adoption. You were “born again” because of what Christ was able to do for you through the Holy Spirit, and became a member of the personal family of God; thus Christ is not simply your Lord and Savior but your elder brother as well. You continue to work out your salvation “in fear and trembling”, as the apostle said, and look forward to your true salvation - being saved from Hell - at your death.

There is much good reading on this subject on the Catholic Answers main website; go and read!

Your fiancee’s profession of belief in absolute assurance of salvation (“once saved, always saved”) is proof she doesn’t understand what the Bible teaches. Read catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp and see.
Why is it so hard for a Baptist to accept a Catholic?
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I hated Catholics as a young person because I was always taught lies about the Church. Most of my friends hated Catholics because they were taught the same lies. Baptists do not usually know what the Church really teaches; often they have been reading Lorraine Boettner’s book Roman Catholicism, which is chock-full of misrepresentations, out-of-context quotes and just plain untruths.

Most Baptists of my acquaintance can’t stand the idea of a single teaching authority, can’t understand what is meant by papal infallibility, and simply can’t believe the power of the Sacraments.

Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to learn your faith more completely, profess and defend your faith correctly, and live your faith every day.

Find a local parish that teaches the undiluted faith; surely there are others on this forum who know where you can go in your hometown. Confess your sins and repent; receive Christ in the Eucharist and commit to receiving Him weekly - daily, if possible.

Read “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” by Karl Keating, founder of Catholic Answers; read Patrick Madrid’s “Where Is That In The Bible?” and "Why Is That In Tradition?’ Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and relearn your faith!

Once you feel you are on solid ground, share your faith with your fiancee and prospective in-laws. Don’t get into a verse-slinging contest with them; chances are they are schooled in “soul-winning” strategies that will overwhelm someone who is not as adept as quoting the Bible out of context.

Most important: stay in touch with other Catholics who will help you to understand. Keep reading these Forums and ask questions. If you want, you can send me a private message here on the forum; I have walked a similar path - maybe I can shed a bit of light on yours.

Stay strong, stay true, and WELCOME HOME!
 
outfctrl said:
So, in other words, that person was never really saved and would go to hell for his crime.
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That’s what my “Born Again” Non-Denominational friend believes. (He left the Church about 12 years ago)

In fact, he’s constantly scrutinizing people. Especially those who profess to be Christians or “Saved”.
I continually try to politely point out to him that God, alone, knows this or that person’s heart. It’s not for us to judge anyone on the basis of what they do or don’t do.

Good luck with your girlfriend and her family. I’ll keep you in my prayers.

God Bless you and no matter what, Keep the Faith!
 
Don’t get into a verse-slinging contest with them; chances are they are schooled in “soul-winning” strategies that will overwhelm someone who is not as adept as quoting the Bible out of context.
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That’s excellent advice! My friend belongs to a group that trains “Born Again” Believers how to evangelize. They have weekly classes.
They get step-by-step instructions on how to go door to door and “bring people to Christ”.
Now I can’t say whether this is deliberate or not, but most of their targets are Catholics who aren’t properly Catechised and/or rooted in their Faith. (According to my friend)
These Catholics are the easiest to convert for them.
They love the idea of “OSAS”, Sola Fide and not having to go to Confession anymore.
It’s like they got a “Get out of Jail Free” Card or something.

Just a few quotes from the Boettner List is enough to plant the seeds of doubt in poorly educated Catholics, because they are unable to defend the accusations/misinformation.

It’s sad, really.

God Bless!
rcwhiteh said:
Outfctrl, I am a former Southern Baptist who converted to the Catholic faith shortly before marrying a Catholic precisely because I believed that it was important that any children we had should grow up in a home with a single religious tradition. Quite unexpectedly, I discovered that I had found Christ’s true Church, and I have never looked back.

What your prospective in-laws are telling you is that you and your fiancee must share the same beliefs; in other words, you must be “born again” (that is, to have a cathartic conversion experience) and convert to the Baptist faith. Their understanding of being “born again” is flawed.

As a cradle Catholic, your parents had you baptized as an infant; thus did the Church claim you as Her own, and thus were you granted spiritual regeneration and filial adoption. You were “born again” because of what Christ was able to do for you through the Holy Spirit, and became a member of the personal family of God; thus Christ is not simply your Lord and Savior but your elder brother as well. You continue to work out your salvation “in fear and trembling”, as the apostle said, and look forward to your true salvation - being saved from Hell - at your death.

There is much good reading on this subject on the Catholic Answers main website; go and read!

Your fiancee’s profession of belief in absolute assurance of salvation (“once saved, always saved”) is proof she doesn’t understand what the Bible teaches. Read catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp and see.

I hated Catholics as a young person because I was always taught lies about the Church. Most of my friends hated Catholics because they were taught the same lies. Baptists do not usually know what the Church really teaches; often they have been reading Lorraine Boettner’s book Roman Catholicism, which is chock-full of misrepresentations, out-of-context quotes and just plain untruths.

Most Baptists of my acquaintance can’t stand the idea of a single teaching authority, can’t understand what is meant by papal infallibility, and simply can’t believe the power of the Sacraments.

Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to learn your faith more completely, profess and defend your faith correctly, and live your faith every day.

Find a local parish that teaches the undiluted faith; surely there are others on this forum who know where you can go in your hometown. Confess your sins and repent; receive Christ in the Eucharist and commit to receiving Him weekly - daily, if possible.

Read “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” by Karl Keating, founder of Catholic Answers; read Patrick Madrid’s “Where Is That In The Bible?” and "Why Is That In Tradition?’ Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and relearn your faith!

Once you feel you are on solid ground, share your faith with your fiancee and prospective in-laws. Don’t get into a verse-slinging contest with them; chances are they are schooled in “soul-winning” strategies that will overwhelm someone who is not as adept as quoting the Bible out of context.

Most important: stay in touch with other Catholics who will help you to understand. Keep reading these Forums and ask questions. If you want, you can send me a private message here on the forum; I have walked a similar path - maybe I can shed a bit of light on yours.

Stay strong, stay true, and WELCOME HOME!
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rcwhiteh said:
Outfctrl, I am a former Southern Baptist who converted to the Catholic faith shortly before marrying a Catholic precisely because I believed that it was important that any children we had should grow up in a home with a single religious tradition. Quite unexpectedly, I discovered that I had found Christ’s true Church, and I have never looked back.

What your prospective in-laws are telling you is that you and your fiancee must share the same beliefs; in other words, you must be “born again” (that is, to have a cathartic conversion experience) and convert to the Baptist faith. Their understanding of being “born again” is flawed.

As a cradle Catholic, your parents had you baptized as an infant; thus did the Church claim you as Her own, and thus were you granted spiritual regeneration and filial adoption. You were “born again” because of what Christ was able to do for you through the Holy Spirit, and became a member of the personal family of God; thus Christ is not simply your Lord and Savior but your elder brother as well. You continue to work out your salvation “in fear and trembling”, as the apostle said, and look forward to your true salvation - being saved from Hell - at your death.

There is much good reading on this subject on the Catholic Answers main website; go and read!

Your fiancee’s profession of belief in absolute assurance of salvation (“once saved, always saved”) is proof she doesn’t understand what the Bible teaches. Read catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp and see.

I hated Catholics as a young person because I was always taught lies about the Church. Most of my friends hated Catholics because they were taught the same lies. Baptists do not usually know what the Church really teaches; often they have been reading Lorraine Boettner’s book Roman Catholicism, which is chock-full of misrepresentations, out-of-context quotes and just plain untruths.

Most Baptists of my acquaintance can’t stand the idea of a single teaching authority, can’t understand what is meant by papal infallibility, and simply can’t believe the power of the Sacraments.

Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to learn your faith more completely, profess and defend your faith correctly, and live your faith every day.

Find a local parish that teaches the undiluted faith; surely there are others on this forum who know where you can go in your hometown. Confess your sins and repent; receive Christ in the Eucharist and commit to receiving Him weekly - daily, if possible.

Read “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” by Karl Keating, founder of Catholic Answers; read Patrick Madrid’s “Where Is That In The Bible?” and "Why Is That In Tradition?’ Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and relearn your faith!

Once you feel you are on solid ground, share your faith with your fiancee and prospective in-laws. Don’t get into a verse-slinging contest with them; chances are they are schooled in “soul-winning” strategies that will overwhelm someone who is not as adept as quoting the Bible out of context.

Most important: stay in touch with other Catholics who will help you to understand. Keep reading these Forums and ask questions. If you want, you can send me a private message here on the forum; I have walked a similar path - maybe I can shed a bit of light on yours.

Stay strong, stay true, and WELCOME HOME!
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Hi rcwhiteh,

Do you know if there is a Catholic Apologetics book that counters the misinformation in Lorraine Boettner’s book Roman Catholicism, point by point?

I’ve been to various websites that refute Boettner’s claims, however, I’d rather have something in hard copy – Something written by a Catholic with authority.

Thanks and God Bless!
 
outfctrl said:
So I said “If you commit a murder and you were saved 5 years ago, you automatically go to heaven?” She replied “Yes” Then I said “Oh, then you asked God his forgiveness for the crime you committed”. She said “You don’t have to, you were saved 5 years ago.”
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Actually, yes, that is what many of them think. This is called the heresy of Antinomianism (anti, against, and nomos, law), and it is a logical conclusion to the belief of *sola fide *(by faith alone).

To put it simply, your girlfriend believes that, since one is saved by faith alone, good works do not aid salvation, and evil works do not hinder it.

There is an excellent entry on this in the Catholic Encyclopedia (link below). The first paragraph pretty much describes it.

newadvent.org/cathen/01564b.htm

MT
 
I was raised Baptist, and one of the hardest teachings for me to give up on becoming Catholic was “OSAS” as it is called here. I had less of a problem with Mary, the saints, the Pope, all of it than with that one, particular teaching. Another way of looking at it is “Blessed Assurance, Jesus is Mine” a famous (old) hymn. I lived for that assurance, that no matter what I did I was guaranteed heaven when I died because I had “accepted Jesus as my savior” as a child.

This is what most evangelical Christians believe, and your girlfirend is correct in how she stated it. (She’s wrong, but she stated it correctly.)

My now husband was a little like you when we met, not really the wild type of life, but I would say a rather nominal Catholic in practice. We started dating, and he started taking his faith more seriously (probably to answer all my questions), and he is now fairly grounded in it. When he wouldn’t let go of his Catholicism, we almost broke up because I knew that we needed to be the same before we could ever consider marrying. He convinced me to attend the National Catholic Family Conference where I heard Scott and Kimberly Hahn for the first time. That conference changed everything. After that, I would have pursued the Catholic Church with or without my boyfriend.

My parents (dad’s an evagelical pastor) remain convinced that I converted “for a guy”, but they are wrong. Thankfully, they really like my now-husband, but there is tension about our faith, especially as we now have children and are raising them as Catholics who know their faith and can defend it.

I’m not sure if you should continue in this relationship or not. Obviously, I’m glad that my husband stuck with me even when I was denouncing his faith. But, there is no guarantee that your girlfriend will be open to Catholicism like I was. You should get her to read* Rome Sweet Home* by the Hahns, and Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating. Those two books were very eye-opening to me as a die-hard protestant. If you can somehow get her to listen to the Hahn’s conversion stories (they are on CD, available many places) that might help. You can listen to them together and both learn a lot.

Good luck! 🙂
 
carol_marie said:
They say: Mutual Fellowship.

What they mean: YOU must denouce your Catholic Faith: Mary, the Saints, the Pope, the Eucharist, Confession, The Rosary, Advent, Lent, Stations of the Cross… all of it - out the door & become Baptist. (which will mean getting re-baptized because they don’t belive your first baptism meant diddly).

I promise you… that’s it in a nutshell.

My advice friend: Find yourself a nice Catholic girl who will also help bring out the goodness in you without all the false teachings of her religion - unless you want your future children to be raised Baptist - thinking that if they “accpet” Jesus at age 5 they can do whatever they please???
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Yep, yep yep…you are right carol marie.

You are Catholic, whether you are devout or not, you are Catholic. Because you were baptized as an infant, you are not born again…at least in their eyes.

To be born again is to accept Jesus as your “personal” Lord and Savior. You would need to be re-baptized in their church as an outward sign of your inward devotion. However by doing this you would be turning away from your faith as a Catholic.

I know because I did this (not going into the Baptist religion but the Non-Denominational Fundamentalist Evangelical camp).

Something was missing even though I thought I had found all the answers.

After years of being a protestant with my DH and raising our one daughter in the Assemblies of God church (among others), it was my husband who suggested we visit the RCC down the street from our house.

We didn’t leave. 🙂

What was missing was Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, the communion of saints and the true forgiveness of sins that the Catholic Church offered but not the other Christian churches we had attended.

When I would express doubts of my forgiveness, I would always hear, “All it takes is the faith the size of a mustard seed for you to know you’re forgiven.” So I felt like I never even had that much faith.

No matter what point I would make about something someone had a scripture to counter what I said.

A poster said to NOT GET INTO A SCRIPTURE SLINGING CONTEST with her and her family.

Heed that advice. Take it to heart. They will have an answer to everything.

I highly recommend Karl Keatings book Catholicism and Fundamentalism. It’s a good book to help you understand not only the Catholic Faith but where people like your girlfiend are coming from.

Also if you can pick up a copy of Rome Sweet Home by Scott Hahn. It’s a great book too about his conversion to the RCC.

There are many many good people who are strong in their faith on the forums here. Don’t be afraid to ask questions no matter how trivial they may seem. I questioned the life out of some wonderful people for over a year on a different forum before DH and I started seeking God for direction on what faith to raise our children. So after another year of daily prayer and faithfully attending Mass, DH and I, along with our 3 children at the time were welcomed into the Church on Easter Vigil 2004. Our 4th child was baptized in Nov. 2005. It’s great to be home!

God is faithful to us even when we aren’t so faithful to him. Always remember that. Seek Him, especially during this time of Advent.

God bless you!

Kelly
 
susie_g said:
needed to be the same before we could ever consider wrong. You should get her to read* Rome Sweet Home* by the Hahns, and Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating. Those two books were very eye-opening to me as a die-hard protestant. If you can somehow get her to listen to the Hahn’s conversion stories (they are on CD, available many places) that might help. You can listen to them together and both learn a lot.

Good luck! 🙂
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Ha! I just read this post after I posted mine, I suggested the same 2 books!

They really helped me with a lot of questions I had even after I converted. They also had helpful info for my DH who had some issues with the Catholic Faith after converting too.

God bless!
 
My story is fairly similar to susie g’s above. My family thinks I converted for a guy too… if they only knew that guy was not my fiancee, but Jesus. I’ve had experience with baptists that were OSAS and also with some that weren’t. No one here can tell you if you should stay with this girl or not, but you need to look down the road a few years and determine if you want that woman being the mother of your children and teaching them her faith. If you’re not comfortable with that… Read those books suggested above and definately check out these forums and the library on this site. They’re great resources, and once you know your faith, you can explain it to them if they ask.
 
outfctrl said:
Bottom line is, Baptists can do what they want without remorse or asking forgiveness from God
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and her comeback will be “Catholics believe they can sin all they want as long as they go to confession”. I used to hear this from one family of kids who’s grandfathers were preachers.

Be charitable, she may not have Baptist theology quite right. Or maybe she does. But be charitable.
 
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