Need help please!

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Heliotropium

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Currently I’m having a discussion that deals with God and desire. The person I’m speaking with says that Gods desire is proof that God is not perfect since nothing perfect would need, want, or benefit from anything. The argumnet presented is this:

"When God first expressed desire in creating the universe, he was the only thing in existence and hence he was the only thing in existence and therefore the only beneficiary in that instance could only be He and He alone.

Prior to the beginning of the universe, all that was in existence was perfection, and there was no imperfection to be benefitted. From this we reason that if the original existence were perfect, there would be no deviation or change from it. However, the current existence contain imperfection, therefore the original existence cannot be perfect. Since the original existence was composed of God, then God cannot be perfect. "
 
There is nothing imperfect about God wanting children. After God created Adam and Eve, everything was perfect until Adam and Eve sinned and turned away from God. That was when God had to come up with a “plan B”. We were created to love and serve him and he gave us the gift of free will. Mankind misused that give and really messed things up. God didn’t so there is nothing in this to prove that God isn’t perfect, man screwed up the original plan, not God.
 
Love is expansive in itself, its nature is to share, to give of itself. God is love. QED! 🙂
 
College kid? Here is the problem not all properties can be assumed to transfer in a logic tree, for example If all that existed was a single god who created a single earth then the earth must also be god. (wrong) since the earth could only originate from god and all that existed was a single god no other options would exist, thus the earth must be god(wrong).

The failed assumption is that god can only reproduce part of god to create the earth and thus earth properties must be exactly equal to god properties. In truth god could create inferior objects and life at his discretion. So god allowed man (an inferior object) to choose. It was man’s choice to try to obtain perfection in the absence of god (fruit of knowledge) which unleashed the imperfections your friend speaks of.

hope that helps
 
God created everything and saw that it was GOOD. Who destroyed it all? Not God.

God is perfect and He is love. He created all of creation to reflect that love. The Trinity of One Being in Three Persons is complete love, each for the other.

He creates all the time out of love because He needs to love and have love returned. That is why we are said to be created in His own image. We don’t all look the same but the need for love is fundamental to us. Of course we need water and food but love and care keeps us alive. Why is that people who are abused and bullied hurt so much and feel that sometimes they’d rather be dead? It is the consequence of a lack of unconditional love and nurture.

Imagine if any of us could create our perfect friend or lover and they obeyed our every wish or command because that was the way we willed it. They would be like robots. But to create and give that person free will to love us or reject us gives them humanity and freedom. It allows them to be themselves, unique and able to communicate their love or indifference back to us. It could hurt us but it’s just.

Great scientists are beginning to realise that they don’t know it all. We keep turning on our own little planet and this universe just carries on a seemingly charted course.

Just some thoughts of my own with the help of Holy Mother the Church. I hope this helps.
 
puppypatrol said:
There is nothing imperfect about God wanting children. After God created Adam and Eve, everything was perfect until Adam and Eve sinned and turned away from God. That was when God had to come up with a “plan B”. We were created to love and serve him and he gave us the gift of free will. Mankind misused that give and really messed things up. God didn’t so there is nothing in this to prove that God isn’t perfect, man screwed up the original plan, not God.
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No they are saying God created the universe because He has wants and if he has wants he has needs/desires and therefore is not perfect because a perfect being needs nothing. Basically they are saying:

Will is a kind of appetite. But appetite, as it is directed to things not possessed, implies imperfection, which cannot be imputed to God. Therefore there is not will in God.
 
Heliotropium said:
No they are saying God created the universe because He has wants and if he has wants he has needs/desires and therefore is not perfect because a perfect being needs nothing. Basically they are saying:

Will is a kind of appetite. But appetite, as it is directed to things not possessed, implies imperfection, which cannot be imputed to God. Therefore there is not will in God.
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But *empathy *is not an appetite. It’s not a desire for something lacking within oneself; it’s a desire for something lacking in someone else. I can be the most happy and satisfied person in the world, and yet empathize with someone less happy and less satisfied than myself. Ask the person if she has considered that God did not create the universe for himself. Ask her if, perhaps, God spoke and brought the universe into existence for her.
 
Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut 

This is what I wrote back based on Gods desires.

When God desires things from man:

God is perfect and needs nothing. Nothing can benefit God because of his perfection. This would mean if God desires anything it is not for the benefit of Himself, but for the benefit of His creation. If God desires our love it is not because our love will benefit Him but it is because our love if given to Him will benefit us. Perfection cannot benefit from imperfection but imperfection can always benefit from perfection. Therefore the argument that Gods desiring is evidence of His imperfection is not valid.

When God desires and to create:

The only time something is not perfect is when it must go outside of itself to satisfy its desires. If all things are found in God then God has satisfied His desires, then God has satisfied Himself with Himself. Since God has not obtained His satisfaction outside of Himself then He has not benefited from His desires. If your saying that the universe exists outside of God then that is a contradiction since nothing God created can exist outside of Himself. Again Gods desires do not give evidence of imperfection since He has satisfied Himself by His very being.

The universe is perfect because it is what its creator has intended it to be based on what he desired from Himself. The creation did not create itself so whatever He created follows His will. The only exception to this is man but that’s because God has given man free will which is the ability to oppose the divine will.
 
The trinity is the essence of family. Father, son, and the love shared between them. It would be natural when thinking of the complexness of God to understand His desire to share this reality and this being with others, because sharing, love, etc are what God IS. Without the trinity, “God is love” would be a useless truth, undirected and incompelling.

Besides, off of what standard is your buddy basing his idea of perfection? Perfection is based off of God, the source of it. How close or far we are from perfection, is based off the *objective *reality of how close or how far off the mark we are from Him, regardless of our *subjective *feelings or opinions about the nature of “perfection.”
 
Heliotropium said:
No they are saying God created the universe because He has wants and if he has wants he has needs/desires and therefore is not perfect because a perfect being needs nothing. Basically they are saying:

Will is a kind of appetite. But appetite, as it is directed to things not possessed, implies imperfection, which cannot be imputed to God. Therefore there is not will in God.
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You have bought into his FALSE Assertion & starting point.
You should always require a “Teacher” to Prove his Base Supposition or starting
point to your complete satisfaction or you can expect to be Led down that “Primrose Path” to the conclusion he has in store for you.

Nowhere can he prove desire by God, Only that God created (Willed it ) into existence. He assumes desire. From Bible teachings we know that God the Father, Son & Holy Spirit existed before the Universe. ( as well as the Angels, I believe)

Add to that the impossible task of his trying to unite the Temporal with the Eternal timeless existance of God & we have yet another flaw…

Hope that helps
Regards
 
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