Need help re abstaining from relations

[NeuCatholic]

I was away from the Church for 20+ years. While away I got divorced and remarried outside of the Church to a non Catholic. I have applied for an annulment so that we can have our marriage regularized. I was abstaining from marital relations until our marriage situation is settled but both our parish priest and the ‘pastoral coordinator’ have said that it is not necessary to abstain but I know very well that it is. I did not come back to The Church to try to get around Christs admonitions but to live my faith more fully as He has directed. I have given the scriptural quotes but I was told that is ‘old theology’. This is very difficult as my wife thinks I am being ‘weird’.

Can anyone please give me some unarguable citations from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, the Catechism and other solid unarguable sources to show the priest, pastoral coordinator and my wife that we must abstain until our marriage is con validated? Bless you all and thank you.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

I was away from the Church for 20+ years. While away I got divorced and remarried outside of the Church to a non Catholic. I have applied for an annulment so that we can have our marriage regularized. I was abstaining from marital relations until our marriage situation is settled but both our parish priest and the ‘pastoral coordinator’ have said that it is not necessary to abstain but I know very well that it is. I did not come back to The Church to try to get around Christs admonitions but to live my faith more fully as He has directed. I have given the scriptural quotes but I was told that is ‘old theology’. This is very difficult as my wife thinks I am being ‘weird’.

Can anyone please give me some unarguable citations from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, the Catechism and other solid unarguable sources to show the priest, pastoral coordinator and my wife that we must abstain until our marriage is con validated? Bless you all and thank you.

Assuming your first marriage is objectively anullable – i.e., it never was – then you are an unmarried man as a Catholic, and sex with your current lady is technically fornication, and (I’m making a point here) you now get to hit your priest and parish coordinator, and your current lady, in the face with the following verses…

Colossians 3:5, Ephesians 5:3, Galatians 5:19-21, Mark 7:20-23, Revelation 21:8, 22:15.

Do you understand my point, friend? I’d be happier if your were agonizing a whole lot more, especially respecting Wife #2.

When I described your fact pattern to my wife, she said, “The guy’s cherry-picking.” By that she means you’re so darn sure of things – You pick your second relationship because it’s the marriage you pick to save. You try to anull your first marriage because you DON’T pick that one. And then, after you take it upon yourself to pick the valid marriage, you throw God’s law in the face of the woman you said “yes” to when you now agree you shouldn’t have.

Come on. Feel some pain, here. My wife is right. There’s at least food for thought in what she says.

 

[neophyte]

I’m not really qualified, but these seem to touch on the matter:
Can. 1058 All persons who are not prohibited by law can contract marriage.

Can. 1060 Marriage possesses the favor of law; therefore, in a case of doubt, the validity of a marriage must be upheld until the contrary is proven.

Can. 1066 Before a marriage is celebrated, it must be evident that nothing stands in the way of its valid and licit celebration.

Can. 1085 §1. A person bound by the bond of a prior marriage, even if it was not consummated, invalidly attempts marriage.
§2. Even if the prior marriage is invalid or dissolved for any reason, it is not on that account permitted to contract another before the nullity or dissolution of the prior marriage is established legitimately and certainly.

Can. 1108 §1. Only those marriages are valid which are contracted before the local ordinary, pastor, or a priest or deacon delegated by either of them, who assist, and before two witnesses according to the rules expressed in the following canons and without prejudice to the exceptions mentioned in cann. ⇒ 144, ⇒ 1112, §1, ⇒ 1116, and ⇒ 1127, §§1-2.

Can. 1124 Without express permission of the competent authority, a marriage is prohibited between two baptized persons of whom one is baptized in the Catholic Church or received into it after baptism and has not defected from it by a formal act and the other of whom is enrolled in a Church or ecclesial community not in full communion with the Catholic Church.

Can. 1156 §1. To convalidate a marriage which is invalid because of a diriment impediment, it is required that the impediment ceases or is dispensed and that at least the party conscious of the impediment renews consent.

Can. 1160 A marriage which is null because of defect of form must be contracted anew in canonical form in order to become valid, without prejudice to the prescript of ⇒ can. 1127, §2.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3V.HTM
I’d ask them a few questions:

1. Does my first marriage posess the favor of law so that it is presumed valid until proven otherwise?
2. If it has the favor of law, has a declaration of nullity been given with regard to my first marriage?
3. If not, then was I free to attempt a second marriage? And was I free to attempt marriage outside of the Church, to a non-Catholic, without receiving dispensations from the Bishop?
4. If I was not free to attempt a second marriage, and not free to attempt it with a non-Catholic outside of the Church, does the Church recognise that marriage as valid?
5. Is it permissible to commit adultery?

You are in my prayers.

 

[NeuCatholic]

Assuming your first marriage is objectively anullable – i.e., it never was – then you are an unmarried man as a Catholic, and sex with your current lady is technically fornication, and (I’m making a point here) you now get to hit your priest and parish coordinator, and your current lady, in the face with the following verses…

Colossians 3:5, Ephesians 5:3, Galatians 5:19-21, Mark 7:20-23, Revelation 21:8, 22:15.

Do you understand my point, friend? I’d be happier if your were agonizing a whole lot more, especially respecting Wife #2.

When I described your fact pattern to my wife, she said, “The guy’s cherry-picking.” By that she means you’re so darn sure of things – You pick your second relationship because it’s the marriage you pick to save. You try to anull your first marriage because you DON’T pick that one. And then, after you take it upon yourself to pick the valid marriage, you throw God’s law in the face of the woman you said “yes” to when you now agree you shouldn’t have.

Come on. Feel some pain, here. My wife is right. There’s at least food for thought in what she says.

Hi Peter,

The point of my post is that we clearly need to abstain from marital relations until such time as our marriage is sorted out and the priest and pastor coordinator are advising us that it is fine to have such relations. As I mentioned in the OP I have given the verses to our priest and PC and just dismiss it saying that is ‘old theology’ that doesn’t apply any more, which is completely false.

On the other point, I should have explained that we have been married now for almost 18 years. Also my first wife was not a Catholic, has been remarried herself for over 15 years, and has no interest in the subject.

What I need now is evidence for the authentic teaching of the Church in the current period so that they will stop trying to encourage us to commit fornication!

Why do I have to teach a PC and priest this anyway? Shouldn’t they already know this?

 

[NeuCatholic]

II’d ask them a few questions:

1. Does my first marriage posess the favor of law so that it is presumed valid until proven otherwise?
2. If it has the favor of law, has a declaration of nullity been given with regard to my first marriage?
3. If not, then was I free to attempt a second marriage? And was I free to attempt marriage outside of the Church, to a non-Catholic, without receiving dispensations from the Bishop?
4. If I was not free to attempt a second marriage, and not free to attempt it with a non-Catholic outside of the Church, does the Church recognise that marriage as valid?
5. Is it permissible to commit adultery?

You are in my prayers.

Thanks neo, those are the kind of references I need.
I believe that we discussed this with the priest and PC. The following would be the pertinent info:

1)Yes, the first marriage is assumed valid.
2) It is the first marriage that I am seeking to investigate with regard to nullity.
3) No, I was not free to marry and I am seeking to rectify that situation for my current wife of 18 years.

This was all discussed with the PC and priest.
4) Clearly the priest and PC think it is ok to commit adultery.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

Hi Peter,

The point of my post is that we clearly need to abstain from marital relations until such time as our marriage is sorted out and the priest and pastor coordinator are advising us that it is fine to have such relations. As I mentioned in the OP I have given the verses to our priest and PC and just dismiss it saying that is ‘old theology’ that doesn’t apply any more, which is completely false.

On the other point, I should have explained that we have been married now for almost 18 years. Also my first wife was not a Catholic, has been remarried herself for over 15 years, and has no interest in the subject.

What I need now is evidence for the authentic teaching of the Church in the current period so that they will stop trying to encourage us to commit fornication!

Why do I have to teach a PC and priest this anyway? Shouldn’t they already know this?

Believe me, I know what you are talking about, in terms of priestly ignorance or canonical defiance. Our former pastor became angry at me when I privately quoted Scripture to him on a related subject, after he disagreed with the Church’s position.

But, I was just worried about “Squeeze #2.” Patiently, lovingly involve her in the process and in your reasoning. If I understood the facts correctly, your very Catholic position is hurting a good woman.

If your ex was a Protestant, by the way, then you may be entitled to a Privilege Divorce, not an anullment.

And, if your ex was a Protestant, then I am slightly more sympathetic to your position: You may be entitled to a Privilege Divorce BECAUSE of your return to The Faith, thus qualifying you for remarriage. Should you, while qualifying yourself for remarriage BY your return to The Faith, violate the rules of The Faith, thus “un-returning”?

Okay. Not too bad.

But, talk to #2, please. Blow money on her. Love her. She sounds like a good lady. Remember that she is a gift from God to you.

Thank you for your civil response, after my rather acidy answer.

 

[rwoehmke]

Was the first marriage witnessed by a Catholic priest or were you dispensd by your Bishop to marry either in a civil ceremony or by a protestant minister?
If you had not formally left the Catholic Church and neither case immediately above applies, it is probable the priest sees your first marriage as an attempt and invalid in the Catholic Church. A full blown annulment may not be necessary. Even if that’s the case your second marriage would also be invalid for lack of form and indeed fornication would be the result of following their advice and not remaining celibate until the second marriage is convalidated. Stick by your guns.

 

[neophyte]

Thanks neo, those are the kind of references I need.
I believe that we discussed this with the priest and PC. The following would be the pertinent info:

1)Yes, the first marriage is assumed valid.
2) It is the first marriage that I am seeking to investigate with regard to nullity.
3) No, I was not free to marry and I am seeking to rectify that situation for my current wife of 18 years.

This was all discussed with the PC and priest.
4) Clearly the priest and PC think it is ok to commit adultery.

To be sure, I had no doubt that you knew the answers, and I certainly didn’t mean to imply that you needed to answer to me.

Have they actually connected the final dots, acknowleged to you that they know that any relations would be adulterous (or at least fornication) and still said that it would be okay? Or have they tried to rationalise that they would not be adulterous, despite the fact that they clearly would be?

I’d be very tempted to tell them that I’m confused by it all, and ask if we could all make an appointment with the Bishop to ask him.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I was away from the Church for 20+ years. While away I got divorced and remarried outside of the Church to a non Catholic. I have applied for an annulment so that we can have our marriage regularized. I was abstaining from marital relations until our marriage situation is settled but both our parish priest and the ‘pastoral coordinator’ have said that it is not necessary to abstain but I know very well that it is. I did not come back to The Church to try to get around Christs admonitions but to live my faith more fully as He has directed. I have given the scriptural quotes but I was told that is ‘old theology’. This is very difficult as my wife thinks I am being ‘weird’.

Can anyone please give me some unarguable citations from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, the Catechism and other solid unarguable sources to show the priest, pastoral coordinator and my wife that we must abstain until our marriage is con validated? Bless you all and thank you.

I admire you, and I believe God will honor you for your self-sacrifice, repentance and obedience. I hope that helps!

 

[NeuCatholic]

To be sure, I had no doubt that you
I’d be very tempted to tell them that I’m confused by it all, and ask if we could all make an appointment with the Bishop to ask him.

Ah! Now that is a mos excellent suggestion! Very good approach.Thank you.

 

[Ruthie]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=103000

CCC 2380, 2381, 2389, 1650, 1651

Canons 1085 and 1141

In my parish, it seems to be taken for granted that invalidly married couples, waiting for an annulment, cannot possibly abstain! I know Father counsels them about it, but there was a lot of surprise when DH and I actually did so. Most seem to wait for the Sacraments until the annulment comes through.

I don’t understand this! DH and I both refused to imperil each other’s immortal souls. That just seems like the obvious choice, to me.

Praying that your priest and CA return to the fullness of truth,

Ruthie

 

[NeuCatholic]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=103000

CCC 2380, 2381, 2389, 1650, 1651

Canons 1085 and 1141

In my parish, it seems to be taken for granted that invalidly married couples, waiting for an annulment, cannot possibly abstain! I know Father counsels them about it, but there was a lot of surprise when DH and I actually did so. Most seem to wait for the Sacraments until the annulment comes through.

I don’t understand this! DH and I both refused to imperil each other’s immortal souls. That just seems like the obvious choice, to me.

Obvious to me too. Exactly, I love her enough to wait. Why can’t our priest and PC see that?

 

[Ignatius]

I was away from the Church for 20+ years. While away I got divorced and remarried outside of the Church to a non Catholic. I have applied for an annulment so that we can have our marriage regularized. I was abstaining from marital relations until our marriage situation is settled but both our parish priest and the ‘pastoral coordinator’ have said that it is not necessary to abstain but I know very well that it is. I did not come back to The Church to try to get around Christs admonitions but to live my faith more fully as He has directed. I have given the scriptural quotes but I was told that is ‘old theology’. This is very difficult as my wife thinks I am being ‘weird’.

Can anyone please give me some unarguable citations from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, the Catechism and other solid unarguable sources to show the priest, pastoral coordinator and my wife that we must abstain until our marriage is con validated? Bless you all and thank you.

Here’s exactly the same situation, and an answer from Fr. Serpa

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=335821