Need help refuting an argument against Papal Infallibility

[RomanChristian]

The first thing any Church going to boost about itself , that Church has to be above reproach of any kind and not have crazy thing going on it’s Church. You or any other person in Catholic Answers you first would have to have credibly first with the people who you talk too ,other then that one wasting one breath. Third Papal infallibility is a dead issue and will never ever be part of Church teaching on our part you wasting your time with that old thing. Your beating a dead horse to plow a field. I’m just save you a waste of long winded talk. I don’t know what world you live on but it’s not planet earth.

 

[Kei]

Like any dogmatic definition, it is something that is always there but needs to be defined at the present moment because people question it/find need for a more precise definition.
There are not only saints, but early Church fathers that show the Faith includes union with the bishop of Rome. The Orthodox have started to accept contraception. Meanwhile, despite being heavily pressured, the pope wrote definitively against it. Why? Because of Divine protection. Unlike the Orthodox, when bishops and theologians start saying something like, “contraception is best left to the discretion of the couple”, we have a unifying leader of the Church to uphold the truth.
The Mass is available under both forms, not just one; it is not replaced.

 

[JacobHarrison]

The reasoning is not just might makes right. God is the creator of the universe and is therefore its legitimate ruler, so he gets to make the laws.

 

[Kei]

The story of salvation involves a gradual revelation of God to humanity, culminating in God literally becoming man.
Yes, He is all-powerful. That’s just one aspect. What I read in the Scriptures is not just like He’s saying “I’m all-powerful, so do this”, but rather, “For I am YHWH your God, so you must consecrate yourselves and be holy because I am holy.”
Scripture also indicates that there are moral laws God cannot break (ie they are against His Nature). In particular, He cannot lie.
Clearly it is not just one or the other here. You follow His Law because you wanna be right with Him, who is King of the Universe. And He is love, justice, etc. in the divine simplicity.

 

[Kei]

God is undoubtedly set apart. But, you seem to have a rather low depiction of God.
He is truth, love, justice. These things are not arbitrary but of His Nature, and as the creator of and He who sustains reality, they are a part of reality as well, hence moral questions. We are made with moral law imbued in our hearts.
There’s a genuine difference between a person with a “God complex” and God Himself. The refusal to recognize this would demonstrate either an ignorance or a pridefulness. A year with a good and holy group of Franciscan friars would likely help. Otherwise, perhaps a contemplation upon Christ within the suffering as one helps them in charity (say, with St Mother Teresa’s sisters) could possibly help, as well. But both would need an acceptance of grace/goodwill. Otherwise, much prayer may be good by others and by oneself.
God bless

 

[JacobHarrison]

That is not the same logic. Here is a better analogy. Parents have the authority to set rules for their children to follow and punish their children when they disobey in proportion to the bad deed they committed. If they do a minor thing they get a time out, and if they do a really bad thing, they get grounded. Since God is an infinite being, disobeying God is an infinite crime deserving of eternal damnation.

 

[Kei]

While I’m sure this was well intentioned, accusing me of lacking goodwill was not a rebuttal. Statements are not proof of the claims they make. I can claim to have “Law imbued in my heart” but those are just empty words. What is “law”? The largest human population in Human history (the Chinese) has held historically it is just to kill newborn baby girls until very recently; so the “law in our hearts” doesn’t seem to align very often with the law of Yahweh.

I mean merely to help. People are by their nature rational, hence they attempt to rationalize what they hold. Yet, very often, it is ultimately due to some privation or lack when it comes to God, and hence, growing in what is lacking will fix the issue. I do not know you, and I did not specify YOU. I was speaking in a generality of what, it seems to me, is often the case, implying you likely fall into this group. Hence, my attempt to help.
But onto the objection.
The particulars are not counted, but more the general morality of a situation. Being governmentally forced to do a certain thing is quite different from individual conscience. But, regardless, the general moral question of murder being wrong is accepted panculturally; it is the particulars that are questioned. Can I kill a criminal? An elderly person? A baby? Etc.

In implying that it is all about power, you ignore the fundamental nature of God, who has shown His great love for us.

 

[JacobHarrison]

Ok I admit that it is a version of might makes right, but it is a version where the might is legitimate might because God did not gain his authority by conquest, it is an authority he always had.

I am saying that every sin is not just a greater crime, it is an infinite crime. But I am sure even infinite punishment varies and that the punishment in hell is greater for Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden etc than for an average sinner. According to people’s visions of hell, Christians who do not repent of their mortal sins are punished greater than non Christians.

 

[JacobHarrison]

This is the exact reason why we need God in order for there to be an objective morality as different societies have different moral codes. Proof that God has goodwill is the fact that he sent his son/himself to die for our sins showing that it is his will for us to get saved.

 

[Kei]

I did not say that you were a big meanie coming here to attack the Faith. However, I think you would benefit from what I have prescribed.

Our natures seek God for ultimate fulfillment; once again, you hold a really low opinion of God. He is not like, say, Henry VIII but just really big and strong.

Yes, God has not only shown His love for us in the person of Christ, but has outright told us that He is love through His revelation. He who is Truth cannot lie. If you wanna hold onto this immense distrust of God, who still continues to sustain you even now, then once again I refer to my earlier advice.

 

[JacobHarrison]

Yahweh has been claimed to be the supreme power, but the claim is not the proof.

The Gnostic heretics believed that Yahweh was the demiurge who was inferior to the true goddess Sophia who sought to free humans from the bonds of their creator and the material world. If Yahweh was not the supreme power, then Sophia would triumph by having Gnosticism prevail in the church.

Even your church does not accept Private Revelations as fact. Even the greatest and most powerful of Marian apparitions are only accepted as “Worthy of belief”, in no great part due to “Pious fiction” being something the Church itself is historically very well aware of (I suggest you read into life stories of the seers of private revelations such as the officially sanctioned “Our Lady of Salette” and the condemned “Our Lady of the Roses” and the less clearly defined “Our Lady of Medugorje”; who probably would have been accepted had the Seers not begun to condemn the hierarchy during their careers). I’d wager that if the Medugorje seers die without condemning the Bishops any further they will be accepted within fifty years after their deaths as genuine regardless to the previous condemnation (something not out of the ordinary for private revelations, see Sister Faustina’s Divine Mercy for a prime example of a U-Turn).

In any case…The idea of multiple tiers and levels of punishment in hell, as most famously depicted in the Divine Comedy , has no basis in scripture or Church Tradition. Hell is hell, and the punishment (eternal torment and separation from God) is applied to all sinners.

It is the power of a bishop to declare a revelation worthy of belief. It is the pope that gives it full approval. I am not saying that the revelations I mentioned are definitely true, I am saying that they may be true.

There is a scriptural basis for there being multiple levels in hell. Luke 10:11-14 and Luke 12:47-48

God created a world in which he was so offended by what he created (and created knowing it would function this way) that he organized a human sacrifice of himself to himself to save us from himself rather than forgive us?

And before you say “He couldn’t because the fall did it”; God created Mary without sin.

God willing us to be saved goes against the notion that he created a world in which damnation was possible. God himself claims to be the source of Evil in Isaiah 45:7 which doesn’t readily support the claim that he is all good and wills the best for his creation,

Mary was an exception. In order to have a meaningful relationship with his creation, God gave Adam and Eve free will hoping that they would still obey him out of their free choice but they didn’t.

And this is an annotation of Isaiah 45:7 in the Douay-Rheims bible.

[7] “Create evil”: The evils of afflictions and punishments, but not the evil of sin.

 

[Kei]

Yes, imperial analogies for He is truly King of the universe. Not so as to craft a false, small, and limited god in our heads, but in describing the fact of His rule.

A human sacrifice

That is Himself…He chose this path even though just a single drop of His precious Blood would have sufficed.

He can, and he has frequently. The Shi’i Muslims did not draw their doctrine of Taquiyya out of thin air.

Taquiyya is about people lying, and comes from essentially a heretical sect.
The quotes you put even describe what is happening. The lying spirit. This is quite simply the permissive Will of God allowing (not morally but factually) the demons to deceive them. Quite likely as some sort of punishment for iniquity.

The world is fallen, indeed. What does billions of years in the future have to do with me? Guarantee that I will die? Well, I already knew that. If you were putting hope in this pale of sorrows, then you will be disappointed. Our hope lies not here.

Like I said, I have offered my advice of what I think is ailing your spirit–if you ignore it, so be it. I cannot force your hand. One is to be open to healing, for our Lord is so humble as to let you open the door and not force His way in so much.

 

[twf]

Second in a poll take that 1 in 10 Roman Catholics have left your Church in a Pew Research Poll. If my math serves me right that it comes out population 350,000,000 in the United States of America that make it 35,000,000 Catholic’s who left the Church.

That doesn’t make any sense. There are 350 million Americans in the USA, not 350 million Catholics… I believe there are about 70 million Catholics in the US…so 1/10th of American Catholics would be 7 million. Orthodoxy has lost members too…Russia, home to the largest Orthodox population, has seen a resurgence in faith since the fall of Communism, but there are still MANY serious social and moral issues.

I’m not American at any rate by the way…

 

[twf]

Second the Orthodox Christian Church has never ever trashed her Divine Liturgy and replaced it with not with a not so good of a replacement.

The Eastern Liturgy has evolved greatly over the centuries. If you believe that the apostles used the Liturgy of St. John Chrystostom, you are very much mistaken.

 

[RomanChristian]

Error on my part I was trying to the number at 35,000 as a percentage of the whole and next one the Divine Liturgy used in my Church is dated at 370 AD the other that’s used is dated first century the Divine Liturgy of Saint James… Don’t forget this problem with your Church has been going on since the end of Vatican Council 2. NO skin off my nose, like I said I would rather put up the troubles my has then your ,at least my eyes don’t roll as they did when I was in your Church…

 

[Kei]

Yes, He is King, but not at all like Henry VIII, who is merely human. He is God, foundational reality. Quite different. His ways are not like that person’s ways.

He chose ineffective theatre over universal salvation. That says a great deal about his oddly human looking priorities.

Far from ineffective, and far from theatre, it was quite effective and real. Not everyone is saved but everyone is redeemed. It is up to those who are redeemed to take up of their redemption. It is not some arbitrary decision.

So God does lie, but he does it via proxy. Does that really make it any better or change the fact he actually does generate and spread lies? You told me he didn’t lie, but now he spreads lies as punishment via demons?

No, He doesn’t. It is not Him lying. It is demons lying. He didn’t command them to lie. He, at this point, is merely allowing them to spread their lies, much like he allows you to comment on this thread against Him.

Hope is a cry of the oppressed. Any improvement in human civilization or condition has never come from vain hopes, but from accepting reality as it is and working from there. Carpe Diem, seize the day and starting from there.

It is no vain hope; those with vain hope are those who hope in this crumbling world in and of itself.

What ails my spirit?

I have answered this long ago, back when you apparently thought I called you a “meanie”.
We do not pray merely to avoid Hell. We pray for us to ever change, to grow more like Him. This means we admit our flaws and let Him in to help us. It is prideful to pretend flaws don’t exist or to try to do it via merely human endeavors.

Ultimately, submitting to God requires some sort of humility. May all of us pray for an abundance of humility in the world. This would bring about true change in the world.

 

[twf]

What did you “roll your eyes” at specifically?

 

[Kei]

I really do think this is utterly unfruitful. But, I will respond to this and some of what you have responded.

The source of all good should be all good, and not able to perform the actions he condemns as evil, let alone perform and create them on a regular basis.

His commands for humans and what is fitting to human nature are not quite the same as what is fitting for the Divine Nature.
Re: angels, their intellect is entirely different, and their will is also different. With full comprehension of their acts they chose to rebel; their wills being fixed are as a result of the difference of intellect (because they cannot change their mind), not because they have always lacked some sort of “freedom”.
There is much to support our hope, most especially Christ Jesus, our Lord, in addition to right reason and the various miracles that we are made aware of.

Yes, indeed, I would want to be like God without fear of Hell, or at least, I would hope to say so. You don’t need perfect contrition in confession; in the parable of the prodigal son, he literally came back because he ran out of food and money!

These snide jabs are childish aren’t they, but it’s not only believers who can find ammo to use under the guise of benevolence.

Perhaps you mean to imply I have made some sort of snide jabs. However, and I have already explained this, but I believe not merely in flesh and blood but the spirit and soul. It seems to me many try to project spiritual beliefs under an attempt to be rational so as to go along with human nature, but there are deeper spiritual struggles going on at the bottom. Hence my attempt to offer some advice, which you can choose to do with as you see fit. Prayer is not for this world only.

I would also like to respond to a couple arguments outside of our own. For instance, you seem to say the praying of the Chaplet of Divine Mercy’s sinfulness changes depending upon the bishop. However, the issue is not the prayer, but the disregard for proper authority (which I fear your comments indicate you do not like) at the time. And looking into private revelations, etc take time.
God cares not only about beliefs but actions, but more precisely intent. It would appear that the first crusade, which saw great success despite being outnumbered by something like 7-12:1, in which there were numerous miracles reported, were of a more pure intent than the following crusades, which may have been moreso motivated by greed, etc.

But this takes up much time, and as I have already described, I think the issue is not quite so intellectual as all the arguing may lead some to think, so this may be my last comment on this topic (perhaps; we will see). God bless.

 

[JacobHarrison]

The Gnostics did not believe Sophia was the ultimate power. Sophia was…I’m very hesitant to say rationalism, because their philosophical process was far from the scientific method. It was their way of ascertaining truth but it was still Theology as this truth still relied upon scriptures as the main source rather than observation. Sophia was as Lady Liberty today embodies democracy; Americans know Lady Liberty/Libertas is a personification of Liberty but not an actual goddess. Sophia was knowledge and the process of attaining it.

In any case, the Cathar failed because they were both a pacifist sect that shunned violence faced with the full wrath of Catholic Europe eager for an enemy to launch a fight they could win against, and also because it was based in poorer and much weaker territories. Yahweh, the Demiurge and the Light had no part in any of that; only human resources, strategy and of course power.

That is a good point. But back to your original argument that Yahweh could have got his power through overthrowing another deity, if that was the case, other deities would have revealed that to the world.

Even supposing you are correct; is there much of a difference between being roasted only a little forever and being roasted properly with goose fat forever?

I don’t know as I haven’t experienced either. But I know that being roasted is horrible. Another thing I know is that according to doctrine, the pain of hell that is even worse than the pain of sense is the pain of loss since eternal separation from God is the chief punishment.

If Mary was unable to sin, she couldn’t truely have had free will and yet she’s the most exhalted and favoured of women. God seems to favour those without sin, so why wouldn’t he favour and create more of individuals who couldn’t offend him.

The reason why Mary is the only human without sin is because she is the mother of God.

If you’d like other relevant quotes check out Genesis 2:17 where God instructs Adam and Eve not to eat from “the tree of good and evil. God created a source of evil before the fall. To say God couldn’t create evil or didn’t is also heretical in line with Jeremiah 32:27 where God states he is omnipotent and nothing is beyond him.

Before the fall, Satan already rebelled against God, inventing evil. The tree simply contained knowledge of that information. God is omnipotent and is therefore capable of creating evil but he doesn’t do it because he is good which is stated in Psalm 100:5. We are capable of committing murder but we don’t do it because we know it is wrong.

 

[RomanChristian]

Where would like me to start the list is long