Need help regarding Inquisition type questioning

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And as you and I know, Edwin, the whole ‘heresy versus treason’ argument becomes especially pointed with English history in the Tudor reigns. The execution of a Protestant for heresy becomes a hissing and byword against ‘bloody Mary’; the execution of a CATHOLIC not for heresy but for TREASON becomes a sad but ‘necessary’ action.
I was taught this growing up (through reading 19th-century Protestant sources), but my Protestant history professors challenged me on it. I do not find it generally held among educated Protestants today. YMMV.

Certainly the persecution of Catholics was religious persecution, and certainly the persecution of heretics often had political ramifications. But that doesn’t change the fact that heresy and treason were different crimes.

The fact that Protestants never prosecuted Catholics for heresy (even though they frequently did prosecute radicals for heresy, and occasionally burned them at the stake) is actually one of the strongest points in favor of Catholicism. Protestants could not get away with claiming that Catholics were heretics, because it was obvious to everyone that they were not making up a new form of Christianity (which is essentially what heresy was) but simply practicing what everyone in Europe had been taught to practice until recently.

Protestants did argue that the Mass and other Catholic practices were blasphemy. I read long ago that two Catholics were executed in Scotland, and this may have been the charge–I’m not sure. I’m also not sure what the formal charge against the martyrs of Gorkum was–their execution was an irregular act carried out in time of war anyway–but apparently they were asked to deny specific Catholic doctrines, so this was an even clearer case of religious persecution than the English martyrs.
Yet both the Protestant under Mary and the Catholic under Elizabeth died not because of personal treason against the monarch but because they were judged as heretics. (even if the word wasn’t used in Catholic judicial murders then.)
For the reasons given above, I think this is simply wrong with regard to the Catholics killed under Elizabeth (and earlier under Henry). They were killed as traitors, and that meant something–the Henrician martyrs denied Henry’s supremacy, and the Elizabethan martyrs participated in underground Catholic worship at a time when the Pope had excommunicated Elizabeth and in principle called on Catholics to abandon her allegiance. That’s not the same thing as executing someone for holding to false doctrines, even though the Catholics in question were required by their faith to do what they did, were not (in most cases) actually engaged in any attempt to overthrow the monarch and thus were genuine martyrs and genuine victims of religious persecution.

A rough equivalent would be if the U.S. government were to become convinced that Muslims as a whole were disloyal citizens, and thus were to make basic Islamic practices illegal and punishable as if they were themselves acts of terrorism. That would be blatantly unjust and a clear act of religious persecution. But it would also be unjust to discuss such a reprehensible act without discussing the context of Islamic terrorism that had led up to it, and to compare it with garden-variety religious intolerance.

On the fundamental issue at stake, as I see it, the Catholics were right and the Anglicans were wrong–Anglicanism had embraced an idolatrous view of the civil government.

Edwin
 
Hi everyone,
I’m having a discussion that I was hoping I could get some help clarifying.

The basic gist of the argument is this:

Did the Church ever, in its authoritative capacity or by the early church fathers, demand capital punishment for heretics? If so, then how could the Church be the authentic teaching authority established by Christ that she claims she is?

I really want to distill this issue, because I’ve seen many posts that say that it wasn’t that large of a number of heretics who have been killed, or that protestants were doing it too. The point is that the Church cannot teach error in faith or morals, so if it ever did even once, it is not the infallible Church. Can anyone offer any help or insights here?

🤷
There’s two words that you may wish to define at some point which may shed some light on the subject for you. That is, infallible and impeccable. They’re not equivalent. Also, a distinction you should make, there is, between the spotless Bride of Christ which is the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and fallible, peccable men who comprise the members of the Church. 🙂

– Nicole
 
The Church/state distinction is just silly. The servants of the state were Catholics. Their actions were in many cases initiated, supported and overseen by representatives of the Church. The answer to the OP is yes, Church officials took part in horrible crimes against freedom of religion and speech, and the Church failed to condemn what was going on in any consistent way, but in fact gave moral support to it in many cases. And yes, similar things have happened in recent times. From this, as a non-believer, I conclude that the church is like other human organisations. Secular democracies (say the US in the Philippines in the 19th century), Empires (say the British in India), athiest states (Say the USSR), religious-based fascist states (say Croatia 1941-45), have all done terrible things. The solution, to me, lies in strengthening enlightenment values of human rights, church-state separation, democracy and national and international rule of law. But if you would like to be a member of a Church or state or powerful institution that has done no wrong, you had better start your own, and be prepared to do so again.
 
The Church/state distinction is just silly. The servants of the state were Catholics. Their actions were in many cases initiated, supported and overseen by representatives of the Church. The answer to the OP is yes, Church officials took part in horrible crimes against freedom of religion and speech, and the Church failed to condemn what was going on in any consistent way, but in fact gave moral support to it in many cases. And yes, similar things have happened in recent times. From this, as a non-believer, I conclude that the church is like other human organisations. Secular democracies (say the US in the Philippines in the 19th century), Empires (say the British in India), athiest states (Say the USSR), religious-based fascist states (say Croatia 1941-45), have all done terrible things. The solution, to me, lies in strengthening enlightenment values of human rights, church-state separation, democracy and national and international rule of law. But if you would like to be a member of a Church or state or powerful institution that has done no wrong, you had better start your own, and be prepared to do so again.
I bolded and Underlined a section above because that sort of illustrates one of the problems with these kinds of discussions.

“Freedom of religion and of speech” are VERY young concepts. They basically did not exist in at the time of the reformation.
The nation state’s religion was whatever the King’s religion was which, in Europe at that time meant Catholic.
Likewise, freedom of speech within a kingdom was largely dependent on the king’s willingness to tolerate such freedom and it could change when the king changed.

So it’s difficult to say that the Church participated in “crimes against freedom of religion and speech” when the principles of these freedoms did not yet exist in the countries where these “crimes” are to have taken place.

Even after the Reformation took hold, and a treaty was signed (I forget the name of the treaty…was it Westphalia??), it was agreed that the Catholic Church would prevail where the ruler was Catholic and the Lutheran Church would prevail where the ruler was Lutheran…
So, depending on where you lived at the time, you were expected to be Catholic, or Lutheran, or…Whatever the King said you were…

Peace
James
 
I bolded and Underlined a section above because that sort of illustrates one of the problems with these kinds of discussions.

“Freedom of religion and of speech” are VERY young concepts. They basically did not exist in at the time of the reformation.
The nation state’s religion was whatever the King’s religion was which, in Europe at that time meant Catholic.
Likewise, freedom of speech within a kingdom was largely dependent on the king’s willingness to tolerate such freedom and it could change when the king changed.
**
So it’s difficult to say that the Church participated in “crimes against freedom of religion and speech” when the principles of these freedoms did not yet exist in the countries where these “crimes” are to have taken place. **

Even after the Reformation took hold, and a treaty was signed (I forget the name of the treaty…was it Westphalia??), it was agreed that the Catholic Church would prevail where the ruler was Catholic and the Lutheran Church would prevail where the ruler was Lutheran…
So, depending on where you lived at the time, you were expected to be Catholic, or Lutheran, or…Whatever the King said you were…

Peace
James
Well, no it is not, because it did. You can hardly say "the same yesterday, today and forever’ and then add that the church somehow overlooked the importance of religious freedom and human rights until it was pointed out to the Church by a bunch of athiest enlightenment scholars. As a non-believer I expect, and predict, that the Church will behave like other human institutions. I do not ‘blame’ it for doing so. But I find it embarrassing to see people justify the murder of innocents because ‘that was then and this is now’. It was wrong then, whether done by the Church or Herod, and it is wrong now. I think it is interesting to see Catholics who oppose ‘situation ethics’ and ‘moral relativism’ doing so in regard to history. But then, they are humans, and humans do the cognitive dissonance thing!
 
Well, no it is not, because it did. You can hardly say "the same yesterday, today and forever’ and then add that the church somehow overlooked the importance of religious freedom and human rights until it was pointed out to the Church by a bunch of athiest enlightenment scholars. As a non-believer I expect, and predict, that the Church will behave like other human institutions. I do not ‘blame’ it for doing so. But I find it embarrassing to see people justify the murder of innocents because ‘that was then and this is now’. It was wrong then, whether done by the Church or Herod, and it is wrong now. I think it is interesting to see Catholics who oppose ‘situation ethics’ and ‘moral relativism’ doing so in regard to history. But then, they are humans, and humans do the cognitive dissonance thing!
Yes we are humans and do display all the human failings. This includes failing to live up to the very high ideals set for us by Jesus himself…We can but try…

Actually you make some good points here. Certainly there are deep and complex issues involved that require much time and care to work through. Something, I’m afraid, that I am not equipped to do.
The primary reason that I chose to respond to your post regarding “crimes against freedom of religion and speech” is because, while these terms are very familiar to us today and even engrained in our psyche, they were virtually unknown at the time, particularly in any political sense. It’s important that we today recognize that fact.

Rightly or wrongly (more wrongly I think) The Church became enmeshed with the politics of the Europe for many centuries after of the fall of the Western Roman Empire. I say more wrongly because it ultimately resulted in Church leadership trying to juggle two somewhat opposing ideas - Christian teaching and political necessity - Unfortunately too often political necessity won out in practice.
Theologically the best thing to happen to the Church was the loss of worldly political power and authority that so divided it’s attention for a millennium. Now it CAN concentrate on getting theology right, without concern fro political expediency.

Peace
James
 
JRKH I think your position makes sense - if the Church is indeed the Body of Christ, enmeshing it with a series of feudal states would be undesirable, and the emergent non-state Church would be more likely to behave as one would expect from a divine institution. Of course, I have yet to conclude that this is the case, but your approach is hugely more rational than trying to excuse or explain away obviously bad things. Still a few scriptural accounts that would need sorting out though . . .
 
JRKH I think your position makes sense - if the Church is indeed the Body of Christ, enmeshing it with a series of feudal states would be undesirable, and the emergent non-state Church would be more likely to behave as one would expect from a divine institution. Of course, I have yet to conclude that this is the case, but your approach is hugely more rational than trying to excuse or explain away obviously bad things. Still a few scriptural accounts that would need sorting out though . . .
Thank you for your kind remarks.

My view is very much a macro-view. Not one that I have researched and worked out a bunch of details on. It is really more of a conclusion that I reached from reading many posts here and some history both online and in books.

Something that we need to bear in mind is that, early on, the idea of the Church and State being enmeshed was quite common and normal. Whether Christian or pagan, the King’s god was the people’s god. So it was in the Roman Empire after the time of Constantine that Christianity rose to become the dominant religion of the State. As the Western Empire fell into decay, it was the Church which, more and more took on the roles of government and protector of the people.
At first this did not seem to be a problem. Why shouldn’t the Church - the Kingdom of God - be a physical force as well as a spiritual one…It could be an enlightened and uplifting governance…
Unfortunately - As history repeatedly shows, ideals very rarely translate well into reality…
More is the pity…
I seem to be rambling - sorry - 😊

One of the things that we as Catholics have been told is to NOT try to excuse sinful behavior and the sins of churchmen of the past (even Popes). I try to honor this by NOT making excuses for bad behavior.
But at the same time it is important, when discussing these matters, that we recognize just how socially, culturally, and politically different things were back then. From our perspective, we are really looking at an extremely alien system of living and of governance. Only by recognizing this can we begin to make rational and objective observations.

You mention that there are some biblical passages that need looked at. While I don’t know which ones you are referring to specifically, I would not be at all surprised if you cannot reconcile them…It’s a sinful world…

Peace
James
 
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