Need Help Responding To This Article 2

[DonCochran]

Under the old order mechanical instruments were required in praise to God (Psalms 150). In the new covenant we find “harps of God” (Rev. 15:2) which would be one’s heart as explained as "singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord (Eph. 5:19) and “singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord” (Col. 3:16). In Heb. 13:15 we are told to offer the sacrifice of
praise to God with the fruit of our lips. Paul’s statement in Acts 17:25 that God is not “worshiped with men’s hands” rules out mechanical instruments in worship for it is practically impossible to play an instrument without using one’s hands.

As priests, Christians are to be a “peculiar people zealous of good works” as spiritual sacrifices (Titus 2:14, i Peter 2:9).
Under the old covenant the priests were to offer their sacrifices at thetent and then later at the temple. In the new covenant the temple is spiritual. The scriptures speak of the church as a whole as the temple of God “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone.”(Eph. 2:20-22). Paul also spoke to the
congregation at Corinth saying, “ye are God’s building” (I Cor. 3:9). Paul also explained that each Christian’s body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in I Cor. 6:19. In Acts 17:24 he stated that God does not dwell in temples made with hands. The temple at Jerusalem was designed for animal sacrifices with the old system of worship. By AD 70 the church, the true temple of
God, had been established and the old was not longer needed, so God removed it by use of the Roman army. Since the true spiritual thing replaced the physical or material thing, we find no temples or “church buildings” either
in scriptures or history for the next two hundred years. Where then did Christians come together on the first day of the week to remember the sacrifice of Christ? In Acts 20:7 it was in the upper room of a private dwelling. Romans 16:5, I Cor. 16:19, and Philemon 2 also speak of home churches. Webster’s New World Dictionary defines a temple as, “A building for the worship of a god or gods.” Under the new covenant true temples
are spiritual.

Earthly Jerusalem is of interest historically, but it no longer has a place in our salvation. In Heb. 13:14 we find, “For here we have no continuing city, but we seek one to come.” Abraham looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (Heb. 11:10). In Gal. 4:26 Paul says, “But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.” It is the church complete that we see in Rev. 21:2 coming down from
God to settle on the new earth. Physical decent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) is no longer important. In Luke 3:8 John the Baptist set the tone for the new covenant when he
told the Jews not to trust in Abraham as their father for " God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." God also tells us that he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, but inwardly (Romans 2:28), Again in Romans 9:6-8 Paul showed that true Israel is not decided by fleshly descent by saying “They are not all Israel which are of Israel” and “They which are
the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God”… Also, in Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 Jesus spoke of those who claimed to be Jews but were “of the synagogue of Satan”. Paul sums it up in Gal. 3:29, “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.” Under the old system David took a metal sword and killed the enemies of
God. Under the new covenant Christians use the “sword of the spirit which is the word of God”(Ephesians 6:11-15, II Cor. 10:4)… When a person is converted and becomes a Christian, he is no longer an enemy of God. In Matt. 26:52 and Rev. 13: 10 we are told that he that takes the sword shall perish with the sword and “Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.” Our warfare is real but gentle. We are to love our enemies. In Romans 13:10 we find that love works no ill to its neighbor.

 

[DonCochran]

This is the second half of an article I was hoping to get a Catholic perspective to respond to. Please let me know if you can assist.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Ok, this one’s going to take a while and I’m pretty tired and also sick. I’m going to get back to this one tomorrow. I really hope the extra day doesn’t cause you any problems.

The big problem with Church of Christ arguments is that they stretch the Scriptures soooo far to make their points that it’s hard to forumlate counter arguments. In other words, they’re so off on what these verses mean that you end up responding to arguments that aren’t even really in Scripture at all. The problem with that is that you end up having to use arguments yourself that aren’t in Scripture to respond to their arguments that aren’t in Scripture, but then they’ll say your argument wasn’t in Scripture!

Just remember through all of this that it’s the Holy Spirit that fights the battles, not any of our words or arguments. Ask Him to deal with it and trust in Him. Then whatever you do will work out.

 

[DonCochran]

Not a problem. Thank you so much for your first reply. Take your time and I look forward to how to interpret this section. I understand what you are saying on how people use only the nt.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Under the old order mechanical instruments were required in praise to God (Psalms 150). In the new covenant we find “harps of God” (Rev. 15:2) which would be one’s heart as explained as "singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord (Eph. 5:19) and “singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord” (Col. 3:16).

Revelation 15:2 refers to harps, and then the next verse, 15:3, says that the people are singing out loud. They are producing real, audible singing, and so to accompany it they have real, audible harps.

But more importantly, there’s no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the verses he quotes define Revelation 15:2. This is not even a case of someone misinterpreting a verse or mistakenly connecting two verses because of some honest misunderstanding. There is absolutely nothing whatsoever that gives anyone even the slightest reason to try to apply Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 to Revelation 15:2. People that are making this argument are going to be held accountable by God for violently and seemingly dishonestly twisting His word to suit their purposes. Beyond that, it shows no love of God whatsoever coming from someone to twist the Scripture so much.

Now Don, I want you to understand that I don’t say that lightly. I never say that sort of thing. I refuse to sound the least bit harsh to anyone, but this is so bad that I feel obligated to say it. It may be the worst twisting of Scripture I’ve ever seen.

In Heb. 13:15 we are told to offer the sacrifice of
praise to God with the fruit of our lips. Paul’s statement in Acts 17:25 that God is not “worshiped with men’s hands” rules out mechanical instruments in worship for it is practically impossible to play an instrument without using one’s hands.

Now here is a case where someone may legitimately have misinterpreted the passages. In Hebrews, it says we offer praise with our lips. We certainly do, but that doesn’t exclude offering praise in other ways. For example, Paul teaches elsewhere that we are to praise God with our entire lives.

The passage in Acts was taken from a King James Bible. The word “worshipped” is one that can mean worship in a figurative sense, but the primary meaning is “to serve.” The passage is saying God is not served by human hands. In other words, God doesn’t need us to do anything for Him. Paul was speaking to a bunch of Greeks, whose religious practices often involved offering service to the gods in the way a butler would serve a rich man. God doesn’t need that, because He owns everything. The full verse is this:

nor is [God] served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.

Now if we just take the verse to mean that God isn’t worshipped with human hands in any way, then the second part makes no sense. God’s need or lack of needs for things has nothing to do whatever with our worship of Him.

Furthermore, we do serve God with our hands, just not “as though he needed anything.” The entirety of Christian life is about serving God with out hands. In fact, in Matthew 24, Jesus explains that some people will be damned or saved based on whether or not they served God with their hands, when they fed Christ in the hungry and clothed Him in the naked. For now, let’s not even worry about faith or works here, and the actual cause of these folks’ eternal destiny, but let’s simply acknowledge that the act of serving God with hands was indeed done by those who were saved.

Add to this other passages in which St. Paul specifically says to use our hands in worship of God. In 2 Timothy 2:16, he teaches that certain gifts of God are transferred by the laying on of hands. In 1 Timothy 2:8 he says he desires people to pray with lifted hands. In Acts 28:8 Paul heals a man with his hands. The Bible simply does not teach that we oughtn’t use our hands in worshipping God. It teaches that God doesn’t require us to serve Him with our hands as if without us He’d be in need.

 

[Lazerlike42]

DonCochran:

As priests, Christians are to be a “peculiar people zealous of good works” as spiritual sacrifices (Titus 2:14, i Peter 2:9).
Under the old covenant the priests were to offer their sacrifices at thetent and then later at the temple. In the new covenant the temple is spiritual. The scriptures speak of the church as a whole as the temple of God “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone.”(Eph. 2:20-22). Paul also spoke to the
congregation at Corinth saying, “ye are God’s building” (I Cor. 3:9). Paul also explained that each Christian’s body is a temple of the Holy Spirit in I Cor. 6:19. In Acts 17:24 he stated that God does not dwell in temples made with hands. The temple at Jerusalem was designed for animal sacrifices with the old system of worship. By AD 70 the church, the true temple of
God, had been established and the old was not longer needed, so God removed it by use of the Roman army. Since the true spiritual thing replaced the physical or material thing, we find no temples or “church buildings” either
in scriptures or history for the next two hundred years. Where then did Christians come together on the first day of the week to remember the sacrifice of Christ? In Acts 20:7 it was in the upper room of a private dwelling. Romans 16:5, I Cor. 16:19, and Philemon 2 also speak of home churches. Webster’s New World Dictionary defines a temple as, “A building for the worship of a god or gods.” Under the new covenant true temples
are spiritual.

The early Christians did not simply meet in homes until necessity required it. They began meeting in the synagogues. The early Christians held to just as much a practice of meeting in places specially constructed for worship as we do today. It was only when the Jews kicked them out of the synagogues that they began to meet in homes, for they had no place else to go. This is backed up by Scripture and history.

Earthly Jerusalem is of interest historically, but it no longer has a place in our salvation. In Heb. 13:14 we find, “For here we have no continuing city, but we seek one to come.” Abraham looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (Heb. 11:10). In Gal. 4:26 Paul says, “But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.” It is the church complete that we see in Rev. 21:2 coming down from
God to settle on the new earth. Physical decent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) is no longer important. In Luke 3:8 John the Baptist set the tone for the new covenant when he
told the Jews not to trust in Abraham as their father for " God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." God also tells us that he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, but inwardly (Romans 2:28), Again in Romans 9:6-8 Paul showed that true Israel is not decided by fleshly descent by saying “They are not all Israel which are of Israel” and “They which are
the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God”… Also, in Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 Jesus spoke of those who claimed to be Jews but were “of the synagogue of Satan”. Paul sums it up in Gal. 3:29, “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.” Under the old system David took a metal sword and killed the enemies of
God. Under the new covenant Christians use the “sword of the spirit which is the word of God”(Ephesians 6:11-15, II Cor. 10:4)…

I’m not really sure what his point is here. Catholicism does not consider earthly Jerusalem to be involved in our salvation, nor do we hold to some requirement of decension from the flesh of Abraham. Do you have any idea what the point of this is?

When a person is converted and becomes a Christian, he is no longer an enemy of God. In Matt. 26:52 and Rev. 13: 10 we are told that he that takes the sword shall perish with the sword and “Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.” Our warfare is real but gentle. We are to love our enemies. In Romans 13:10 we find that love works no ill to its neighbor.

Right… again, I have no idea where the contradiction with Catholicism is supposed to be here.

Peace and God bless