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thinkandmull
Guest
God loves us and himself necessarily. How can that be good? To do something by necessity isn’t a virtue
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Ad_Orientem
Guest
I think you’re getting hung up on the word “necessary,” which can have connotations of compulsion.
God is love itself. He “cannot help” but love, not because he is compelled by some external force, but because it is his nature to love. That does not make his love circumstantial, artificial, or forced, as ours often is. Nor does it make his love robotic, because it is supremely free. His love is in fact infinitely better because it does not have to be learnt or perfected, but is itself the prototype and model.
God is love itself. He “cannot help” but love, not because he is compelled by some external force, but because it is his nature to love. That does not make his love circumstantial, artificial, or forced, as ours often is. Nor does it make his love robotic, because it is supremely free. His love is in fact infinitely better because it does not have to be learnt or perfected, but is itself the prototype and model.
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thinkandmull
Guest
If God is greater than humans who fight, strive against, and overcome temptations than it must be in His will. Must we turn from that thought to the thought the He IS love. But how can something just BE love? I use to understand this is a child’s fashion, but I want a more adult understanding, something clearer
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
He IS Giving.
Everything is Given by Him, including its own capacity to will where applicable - now that’s real Giving!
Everything is Given by Him, including its own capacity to will where applicable - now that’s real Giving!
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Aloysium
Guest
The Son knows the Father. We come to know Him through the grace of the Holy Spirit, becoming Christ-like. A transformation is required of oneself into Love. We are thereby brought into the Trinity. One comes to know God, contemplating what He has revealed, as we are doing, praying, partaking of the Eucharist and following His commandments which show us how to love. An adult understanding follows when one “walks the walk”. Let’s pray that we become more loving persons.
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Wesrock
Guest
Insofar as something is, it is good, because being is convertible with goodness itself. That could certainly use expansion, but I won’t do so here. To continue, God Himself is simply pure Being, not a type of being, but is Being in his essence. He is therefore Good in His essence. He wills Himself (the Good) and other beings for the sake of Himself (not in a selfish way, but so that all things might share in Him). This relationship, in God willing the Good, and with all that exists being good insofar as the way that they embody being (and not for their lacks), is essentially Love. God wills us. God wills our good. God wills us as good. God wills us to draw closer to Himself. God is goodness. This is what love truly is. To will the good, to share the good, to share ourselves. Therefore, God is love.If God is greater than humans who fight, strive against, and overcome temptations than it must be in His will. Must we turn from that thought to the thought the He IS love. But how can something just BE love? I use to understand this is a child’s fashion, but I want a more adult understanding, something clearer
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Wesrock
Guest
To expand on my last point, the above relationship is between God and His creation, and if that’s all it was, we could say that God loves, but that He is not love in His essence. However, as Christians we believe in a Triune God. This willing the good of Himself, this loving of Himself, isn’t just a selfish type of love, for there are three persons within God. In the relationships that exist within God Himself, the Father loves the Son, the Son loves the Father, and that Love is so perfect and good that it also is a person. Because of this relationship within Himself, God is love in Himself. If God never created, His Love would not disappear, because it exists within Himself between the Father and the Son. God loves and is Love (for love is willing the good of another) within Himself, and so can be said to be Love.Insofar as something is, it is good, because being is convertible with goodness itself. That could certainly use expansion, but I won’t do so here. To continue, God Himself is simply pure Being, not a type of being, but is Being in his essence. He is therefore Good in His essence. He wills Himself (the Good) and other beings for the sake of Himself (not in a selfish way, but so that all things might share in Him). This relationship, in God willing the Good, and with all that exists being good insofar as the way that they embody being (and not for their lacks), is essentially Love. God wills us. God wills our good. God wills us as good. God wills us to draw closer to Himself. God is goodness. This is what love truly is. To will the good, to share the good, to share ourselves. Therefore, God is love.
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thinkandmull
Guest
Well I think Aristotle’s God would be love itself as well, without a Trinity. But what I am considering is how virtue being fought for is better than virtue when it has become a habit. God doesn’t have to fight for virtue like we do. That is where I have confusion
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Aloysium
Guest
Love in what manner? Giving to Himself? I don’t know how a totally transcendent being can be love.Well I think Aristotle’s God would be love itself as well, without a Trinity. But what I am considering is how virtue being fought for is better than virtue when it has become a habit. God doesn’t have to fight for virtue like we do. That is where I have confusion
You may wish to contemplate what has been revealed about Jesus’ 40 days in the desert.
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thinkandmull
Guest
You can’t prove the Trinity by reason, but you can prove His perfection. He could be love without the need to for the love to be returned.
As for this threads topic, are you saying that God, when placed in the situation, DID and always would overcome temptations? This is getting deeper into the issue I see. Now God the Father never had to overcome temptations on the other hand and He is love. Where does that love come from? Saying He loves by necessity but not compulsion isn’t ringing a bell for me
As for this threads topic, are you saying that God, when placed in the situation, DID and always would overcome temptations? This is getting deeper into the issue I see. Now God the Father never had to overcome temptations on the other hand and He is love. Where does that love come from? Saying He loves by necessity but not compulsion isn’t ringing a bell for me
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Ad_Orientem
Guest
thinkandmull, the logic you propose seems to go like this: “Man must be perfected in order to possess virtue. God is not perfected, therefore God does not possess virtue.” As stated above, God is not a man. Granted, our virtue, charity and all, is perfected by striving and purifications; we are the more perfect the more we resemble Perfection. Since God is that Perfection from all eternity, he does not need to be perfected like we do. Sometimes the child’s answer is the best one; God “just is”.
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thinkandmull
Guest
If God’s only choice available is love, how is it a choice however?
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davidv
Guest
How does God make choices? Choice implies to me potentiality. There is no potentiality in God, so there can be no choice.If God’s only choice available is love, how is it a choice however?
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thinkandmull
Guest
that is why I am struggling with the idea of God being greater than those who make choices. God can make choices about creating and still be essentially actual, but what is essentially actual without the option of choices?
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STT
Guest
You are correct in your observation. God who is actual has no potentiality hence not choice therefore He cannot decide. God who is timeless cannot decide and act because decision and act are two separate actions which require time therefore God can only act.that is why I am struggling with the idea of God being greater than those who make choices. God can make choices about creating and still be essentially actual, but what is essentially actual without the option of choices?
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davidv
Guest
So? The implication is that God cannot be? Maybe what you call decision and act do not occur in God. Why is that a problem?You are correct in your observation. God who is actual has no potentiality hence not choice therefore He cannot decide. God who is timeless cannot decide and act because decision and act are two separate actions which require time therefore God can only act.
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thinkandmull
Guest
Before and after in causality is different from before and after temporally
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STT
Guest
One interpretation could be that God is subject to time once He made His decision. That is consistent with the picture of Him in Bible (instead of timeless God who cannot change His mind): Exodus 32:14: “Then the LORD changed His mind and did not bring on His people the disaster He had threatened.” Jonah 3:10 : “When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, He changed His mind and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened.”
No.The implication is that God cannot be?
I think that you agree with me considering what you wrote in post #13. God did not have any choice before creation but to create. He has choices afterward.Maybe what you call decision and act do not occur in God. Why is that a problem?
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thinkandmull
Guest
Why must choices always be in time. Defend
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davidv
Guest
Since I know for a fact that God is not subject of time, this an invalid interpretation.One interpretation could be that God is subject to time once He made His decision.
I cannot accept this bias interpretation.That is consistent with the picture of Him in Bible (instead of timeless God who cannot change His mind): Exodus 32:14: “Then the LORD changed His mind and did not bring on His people the disaster He had threatened.” Jonah 3:10 : “When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, He changed His mind and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened.”
No I don’t agree with you.I think that you agree with me considering what you wrote in post #13. God did not have any choice before creation but to create. He has choices afterward.
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