Need help verifying a recent miracle

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ethereality

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I’m beginning to think that there is no God due to the absence of His actions on earth. The Old Testament condemns false gods as false because, being statues, they cannot walk unless someone carries them, cannot pick themselves back up if they fall down, etc. I see a striking parallel with the Eucharist – we’re told to believe that the Sacred Host and the Precious Blood is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, and therefore the person of Jesus Christ, i.e. your receiving the Sacred Host is you receiving Jesus Christ, that the Sacred Host is Jesus Christ. (Is not this all correct?)

But then Jesus Christ doesn’t stop himself from falling to the floor, being spilt down someone’s shirt, stolen and nailed to a wall in someone’s university office, being vomited back up, etc? I.e. we can manipulate Jesus Christ as if he were one of these statues, except dealing with the appearance of bread instead of the appearance of a statue? (Or does Jesus prevent atheists from stealing Himself by preventing them from attending Holy Mass? Who can say?) You see the temptation to think that the Sacred Host is not really Jesus. So it is difficult for me to believe that God is on earth with us now.

So I then turn to miracles. The Miracle of the Sun, the miracles associated with St. Faustina, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Lourdes (I know basically nothing about Lourdes) … but I cannot find any conclusive evidence – no news stories, no scientific investigation – where do I look? What books do I read? Please give me some literature verifying recent miracles that I can read, believe, and share with even more cynical associates at my graduate school. I’m at the University of Pennsylvania, so if their libraries do not have the references, they can most likely borrow a copy from another library.
 
Why do you need God to preform miracles? He already preforms one every time a host is consecrated, but that is an article of faith. Couldn’t it be that at certain times miracles are more necessary than others, and that God in his Infinite Wisdom can best decide when to intervene by breaking of natural laws?

And how is Christ allowing himself to be mistreated in the Blessed Sacrament any different from him allowing himself to be mistreated on the Cross? He exists.
 
I kind of agree with ChiRho, why do you need a sign for your faith. You might wish to speak to a priest about this. Maybe a spiritual director can help you.

But then again I can understand were you are coming from, I believe that at one point of my life I was where you are.

I was recently given a book on Lourdes as I will be going there on a pilgrimage at the end of April as a malade with the Order of Malta. The book is The Wonders of Lourdes, within this book they tell the stories of the apparition and many of the miracles that occurred there.
 
ethereality said:
I’m beginning to think that there is no God due to the absence of His actions on earth.
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I would say that the fact that there is an earth is evidence of a God.

Must you need bells and whistles to go off? 🙂
 
Great questions, and I’d like to separate them out a bit.

First, regarding miracles… Jesus does not stop Himself from being profaned in the Blessed Sacrament, just as He did not stop Himself from being crucified. He knew it was coming, yet didn’t go into hiding. He never made a single verbal or physical defense during His arrest and trials. In His own wisdom, God has allowed Himself to be placed helpless into our hands at times – consider His human infancy, do you think He never had diaper rash?🤷

If you would like some information about miracles that have been verified by the Church, I came across this website from Lourdes a couple weeks ago:

lourdes-france.org/index.php?contexte=en&id=405

I found it very interesting. It lists not only the 60 something approved miracles, but also delieates the method with which a particular occurrence is declared a miracle. Notice it takes years and years of investigation.

Second, you mention needing some ammunition, if you will, to bring to conversations with graduate school colleagues. Arm yourself with The Catechism of the Catholic Church first and foremost. If you have questions on a particular topic, you might also check out the Fathers of the Church (newadvent.org/fathers/) or the Summa Theologica by St. Thomas Aquinas (newadvent.org/summa/).

When looking for solid answers, go to the “heavy hitters” of the Church – the early Church fathers, and the doctors of the Church.

Don’t let others bully you with an endless litany of unrelated questions – you know, when they unload every question or concern they’ve ever had regarding the Church. One topic at a time, and then move on.

God bless you. You’ll be in my prayers.

Gertie
 
I am well-versed in Catholic theology. For example, I’ve already read the Catechism of the Catholic Church – look at my reading list on my website.

I believe I made the point of this thread clear: I want clear proof that miracles I’ve heard talk about (e.g. Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe) actually happened, and I want evidence that God exists and loves me.

The snide comments are inappropriate, e.g. about needing bells and whistles, and I hope there will be no more of them. Thanks for the few references you’ve given me; I’ll look into them – I hope they are scholarly.
 
ethereality said:
I believe I made the point of this thread clear: I want clear proof that miracles I’ve heard talk about (e.g. Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe) actually happened, and I want evidence that God exists and loves me.
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What do you consider to be evidence? I’m asking because you won’t be able to put God in a beaker and measure Him, but you can infer Him in some instances.
 
Who needs miracles when you have logic? 😛
  1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause for its coming into being.
  2. The universe began to exist.
  3. Therefore, the universe has a cause for its coming into being.
I consider myself knowledgeable in this field of philosophy, so if you (the OP) has questions don’t be afraid to ask. I’ll certainly try to answer them the best I can! 🙂
 
ethereality said:
I’m beginning to think that there is no God due to the absence of His actions on earth. The Old Testament condemns false gods as false because, being statues, they cannot walk unless someone carries them, cannot pick themselves back up if they fall down, etc. I see a striking parallel with the Eucharist – we’re told to believe that the Sacred Host and the Precious Blood is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, and therefore the person of Jesus Christ, i.e. your receiving the Sacred Host is you receiving Jesus Christ, that the Sacred Host is Jesus Christ. (Is not this all correct?)

But then Jesus Christ doesn’t stop himself from falling to the floor, being spilt down someone’s shirt, stolen and nailed to a wall in someone’s university office, being vomited back up, etc? I.e. we can manipulate Jesus Christ as if he were one of these statues, except dealing with the appearance of bread instead of the appearance of a statue? (Or does Jesus prevent atheists from stealing Himself by preventing them from attending Holy Mass? Who can say?) You see the temptation to think that the Sacred Host is not really Jesus. So it is difficult for me to believe that God is on earth with us now.

So I then turn to miracles. The Miracle of the Sun, the miracles associated with St. Faustina, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Lourdes (I know basically nothing about Lourdes) … but I cannot find any conclusive evidence – no news stories, no scientific investigation – where do I look? What books do I read? Please give me some literature verifying recent miracles that I can read, believe, and share with even more cynical associates at my graduate school. I’m at the University of Pennsylvania, so if their libraries do not have the references, they can most likely borrow a copy from another library.
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Ethereality, this is my opinion but it seems to me that you are looking for the wrong things… Jesus said our faith should not be based on miracles, we shouldn’t look for signs, but ask God for greater faith. I will try to answer your points though…

About the Eucharist… actually Jesus does A LOT in and through Communion. The reason He doesn’t stop people from desecrating the Eucharist is because of His humility. Remember when He didn’t stop people from crucifying Him, though He could have, and for this reason some began to believe He is not God? (“If you are the Son of God, save yourself”). We should be careful we don’t do the same thing today, with the Eucharist. Jesus could do anything He wants, but He is very humble and gentle with us and wants us to rely on faith, and the reality is that this costs Him - true love is always costly, it’s always a RISK - and yes He is taking a great risk in the Eucharist. But He is there… and He took the risk because He wants so much to be united with human souls in Communion - with those who receive Him worthily and with love. That is why Catholics offer reparation… we offer Him our love to make up for all the ways He is not loved, but offended.

What do we know Jesus does in the Eucharist? It does not have to be something visible 🙂 He changes people’s hearts in the Eucharist… a pagan god, a false god or an idol, could never do that. Jesus does something MORE, something greater, than a visible miracle… He forgives sin, offers grace… read about the lives of the Saints, and what it was like for them after Communion. I can say in my own life, - when I was a Protestant, for a time I believed that the Real Presence was at my non denominational church too. I felt closer to God after Communion, and maybe it was a type of spiritual Communion (that is what I believe today). However, when I received the Eucharist in the Catholic Church, it was a completely different experience. It was like real substantial union, not only spiritual. And the whole day, Jesus was guiding me on how to avoid sin, be more loving towards people, etc (I failed greatly, but what I’m trying to say is that He was definitely there!). He changes people’s lives in the Eucharist… but only if they surrender to Him, trust, and receive worthily and with love for Him. Otherwise, they are blocking themselves from His graces, which He so wants to give them!

Try to read some private revelations to the Saints, like about the Sacred Heart or Divine Mercy devotions… read the Scriptures 🙂

About verifiable miracles - have you ever heard of these?
miraclerosarymission.org/lanciano.html
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
and this:
youtube.com/watch?v=qbg_dhI4XCs
You might also want to read about recent Saints like St Padre Pio:
acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2006/02/miracles-of-st-padre-pio.html

But in the end, our faith is not based on evidence… not because evidence doesn’t support our faith, in fact it does, but because faith is a choice, and a gift from God that we should ask for.

God bless 🙂
 
ethereality said:
I am well-versed in Catholic theology. For example, I’ve already read the Catechism of the Catholic Church – look at my reading list on my website.

I believe I made the point of this thread clear: I want clear proof that miracles I’ve heard talk about (e.g. Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe) actually happened, and I want evidence that God exists and loves me.

The snide comments are inappropriate, e.g. about needing bells and whistles, and I hope there will be no more of them. Thanks for the few references you’ve given me; I’ll look into them – I hope they are scholarly.
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Humility is the sure way to being open to God and His love for you. Make yourself small, as a little child, and see if things get better.
 
ethereality said:
I am well-versed in Catholic theology. For example, I’ve already read the Catechism of the Catholic Church – look at my reading list on my website.

I believe I made the point of this thread clear: I want clear proof that miracles I’ve heard talk about (e.g. Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe) actually happened, and I want evidence that God exists and loves me.

The snide comments are inappropriate, e.g. about needing bells and whistles, and I hope there will be no more of them. Thanks for the few references you’ve given me; I’ll look into them – I hope they are scholarly.
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Ether – I apologize if my comments seemed “snide.” But lights and bells are exactly what you are asking for: an emotional, personal contact with something that goes beyond the intellect, the five senses, and the historical witness of the Apostles.

While extraordinary miracles are sometimes granted to individuals – or to the Church as a whole for certain reasons – my point was that we shouldn’t rely on recent miracles (which is what you specifically asked about) as evidence. They may be of value, but please don’t let them become the hinge point for your faith.

I understand your struggle; in one sense or another we all have dealt with asking where God is at certain times. My point is that we have many miracles around us (creation, birth of babies, etc.) that can only be rejected by Stephen Hawking et al., who claim that the universe created itself (huh?).

Read the posts by Monica and Cool Duude. I think we’re all saying the same thing, but mine struck a nerve with you. At any rate, I’d be glad to continue the discussion from a logical/philosophical point of view.
 
ethereality said:
I am well-versed in Catholic theology. For example, I’ve already read the Catechism of the Catholic Church – look at my reading list on my website.

I believe I made the point of this thread clear: I want clear proof that miracles I’ve heard talk about (e.g. Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe) actually happened, and I want evidence that God exists and loves me.

The snide comments are inappropriate, e.g. about needing bells and whistles, and I hope there will be no more of them. Thanks for the few references you’ve given me; I’ll look into them – I hope they are scholarly.
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Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe, and all the other private revelations are not part of the Deposit of Faith and so therefore they are not required belief for salvation. Faithful Catholics are free to believe or disbelieve in them.

You may want “clear proof” of the miracles but you will never find it. God leaves just enough wiggle room in miracles for free will and for those who do not wish to believe to not believe. I did provide a resource for Lourdes but I guess it does not meet what you require.

I have done what I can. Time to move on.

I will pray for you.
 
In Jesus’ life, He did nothing to those who tried to and did hurt Him. He let people crown Him with thorns and kill him, etc.

The miracle of the sun can be found in the Portuguese newspaper.

There are also Saints whose bodies never corrupted.

Many people have been cured in the waters of the Spring that Bernadette dug in the dirt. Many of the Lourdes miracles have been documented.

Check this out!!!
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
 
Even when Jesus was on Earth people doubted him. If people, and a substantial if not majority of people at the time, doubted Jesus and therefore God’s existence, when God was actually present on Earth, what makes you think anything would be definitive?

There is no proof. God gave us the ability to reason and unfortunately, many people use that gift to rationalize everything, and therefore doubt God’s existence under any circumstance.

If God were to come down right now and appeared to an entire nation, it wouldn’t surprise me if the rest of the world came up with some rational explanation, such as there being some radiation poisoning that caused delusions in everyone, or some other psychosis occurred due to the foods that this nation was eating.

Jesus said it best in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus when the rich man begs for God to send someone to warn his friends and family so that they do not suffer the same fate.

The answer was that even if someone were to rise from the dead, people would still not believe. How true that appears to be.

The point is that one needs to have faith in God.
 
=ethereality;7657017]I’m beginning to think that there is no God due to the absence of His actions on earth. The Old Testament condemns false gods as false because, being statues, they cannot walk unless someone carries them, cannot pick themselves back up if they fall down, etc. I see a striking parallel with the Eucharist – we’re told to believe that the Sacred Host and the Precious Blood is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, and therefore the person of Jesus Christ, i.e. your receiving the Sacred Host is you receiving Jesus Christ, that the Sacred Host is Jesus Christ. (Is not this all correct?)
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Both literally and factually correct**: Mt. 26:26-28; Mk. 14:22-24; Lk. 22: 19-21; Paul 1st. Cor. 11:23-29 and this from John 6:52-56 " John 6:52 “ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.** He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."
But then Jesus Christ doesn’t stop himself from falling to the floor, being spilt down someone’s shirt, stolen and nailed to a wall in someone’s university office, being vomited back up, etc? I.e. we can manipulate Jesus Christ as if he were one of these statues, except dealing with the appearance of bread instead of the appearance of a statue? (Or does Jesus prevent atheists from stealing Himself by preventing them from attending Holy Mass? Who can say?) You see the temptation to think that the Sacred Host is not really Jesus. So it is difficult for me to believe that God is on earth with us now
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WHY?. God gives every human person a Mind, Intellect, FREEWILL, and soul;[Spiritual Gifts] to direct our Physical gifts; precisely in-order for us to FREELY choose to Love Him; or hate Him. OUR CHOICE.👍 WE CHOOSE HEAVEN OR HELL; GOD ONLY CONFIRMS OUR PERSONAL CHOICES. That my frind is the ultimate in love and TRUST!
So I then turn to miracles. The Miracle of the Sun, the miracles associated with St. Faustina, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Lourdes (I know basically nothing about Lourdes) .
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This ones an “easy fix”…Google: “Eucharistic Miracles.”

We call the practice of what we believe “Faith” because it requires [in an absolute sense] Faith which can only come from God. Pray for it. Expect it; and receive the sacraments; notably Confession and Catholic Holy Comunion OFTEN; and it will give it to you!

God Bless,
Pat
 
I don’t know what you study ethereality, but I study biochemistry. In my opinion the very fact that we exist is a miracle.
 
ethereality said:
I’m beginning to think that there is no God due to the absence of His actions on earth. The Old Testament condemns false gods as false because, being statues, they cannot walk unless someone carries them, cannot pick themselves back up if they fall down, etc. I see a striking parallel with the Eucharist – we’re told to believe that the Sacred Host and the Precious Blood is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, and therefore the person of Jesus Christ, i.e. your receiving the Sacred Host is you receiving Jesus Christ, that the Sacred Host is Jesus Christ. (Is not this all correct?)

But then Jesus Christ doesn’t stop himself from falling to the floor, being spilt down someone’s shirt, stolen and nailed to a wall in someone’s university office, being vomited back up, etc? I.e. we can manipulate Jesus Christ as if he were one of these statues, except dealing with the appearance of bread instead of the appearance of a statue? (Or does Jesus prevent atheists from stealing Himself by preventing them from attending Holy Mass? Who can say?) You see the temptation to think that the Sacred Host is not really Jesus. So it is difficult for me to believe that God is on earth with us now.

So I then turn to miracles. The Miracle of the Sun, the miracles associated with St. Faustina, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Lourdes (I know basically nothing about Lourdes) … but I cannot find any conclusive evidence – no news stories, no scientific investigation – where do I look? What books do I read? Please give me some literature verifying recent miracles that I can read, believe, and share with even more cynical associates at my graduate school. I’m at the University of Pennsylvania, so if their libraries do not have the references, they can most likely borrow a copy from another library.
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Here are three. If you share with those at your graduate school, please let us know how it turns out. If you need help on getting the resources, drop a line.

The apparitions of the Virgin Mary prior to the Rwanda genocide. nytimes.com/1999/04/08/wo…lood-bath.html

The tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe examined by Dr. Jose Aste Tonsmann, Ph D, who graduated from Cornell University with a degree in environmental engineering, while working in IBM. When Though the dimensions are microscopic, the iris and the pupils of the image’s eyes have imprinted on them a highly detailed picture of at least 13 people, Tonsmann said. The same people are present in both the left and right eyes, in different proportions, as would happen when human eyes reflect the objects before them.
examiner.com/roman-cathol…ic-explanation. The people are 1. Juan Diego unfolding his tilma & wearing a native hat of the period. 2. Bishop Zumarraga, staring at the tilma. 3. An Aztec servant of the bishop sitting in the style of an Indian. 4. A Spaniard of the bishop’s staff. 5. A Spaniard who learned the indigenoous language & served as the bishop’s translator. 6. A black African female servant girl – documentary evidence shows in fact, that the bishop did have an African female servant. 7. Seven members of an indigenous family – a mother carrying a baby on her back, a father, a grandmother and grandfather, and two young children. [CITATION] Los ojos de la Virgen de Guadalupe
JA Tonsmann - 1981 - Editorial Diana (Can be found on google scholar)

The Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano surviving to this day, and studied in a journal recognized by the US National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health. Quad Sclavo Diagn. 1971 Sep;7(3):661-74.
[Histological, immunological and biochemiccal studies on the flesh and blood of the eucharistic miracle of Lanciano (8th century)]. ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4950729

Happy to help!
 
I wanted to make another option, but then I realized that would take a miracle in itself. So I checked “yes” but I’m afraid that will give the wrong impression.

We tend to think of the “will of God” as God wishes something in particular to be done, which implies He hasn’t done it already. So God had no clue what a will was until will created a universe in which God could experience Himself via his human connections. This way, He can experience all of us, which can strangely be called “none of us” or even “Illinois” depending on the whim of (the) God creating the words.

So really, the will of God is no will at all, and that’s why humans can never be God … because if they were exactly God, then they would have to create their own universes from their own consciousnesses where God actually has a will, which means we’ve defined and thus limited God to being with or without a will, when in fact He doesn’t care to the extent the He doesn’t even know.

Think God can will to forget something? Of course! I I were omnipotent, then I can’t be omniscient. This is a cute puzzle that humans have created for God’s amusement – battling out the details of how to define in human terms, the fact that God considers Himself neither omnipotent or omniscient, because God doesn’t judge Himself because there is nothing to judge since there is no right and wrong… well there is, but at the same time there isn’t, and that’s why Jesus had to come along and set us straight. He knew that it would be a very long time, but He didn’t know whether it would be 100 years, 10,000 years, or what. Those who protest and say, "but God KNOWS absolute truth, so of course He knows … well that’s another reason we exist, is so that God will understand Himself all the way from the alpha to the omega, so each little god that wanted a human body became born of parents of its choosing (why do you think Jesus picked Mary? He knew she would be perfect) would have a limited perspective for no other reasons that there is free will, so no part of God can “control” another part, although they have a certain relationship that causes themselves to be played out as this universe.

But the question is, how could Jesus have both made and perfected the soul of Mary, when He wasn’t born yet when a) she was born and b) He was conceived.

The answer is simple. It’s a trick question. Asking a spirit whether the chicken or the egg came first will influence the spirit, and the chicken/egg dichotomy. There was no question until it was asked.

It’s almost like we make up a nonsense word, say, “parts,” and then asking how many parts there are in a gallon of water.

Alan
 
We have to also remember that faith is a gift from God. It is one of those theological virtues along with hope and charity. It is always good to pray for faith. I believe that faith is a quality rather than a quantity. (It only takes a mustard seed!).

I have peace in knowing that there are a lot of Sacred Mysteries in the Church. The Eucharist is one of them (a big one!).

Neden
 
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