Need help with a Baptist friend

[jerome_ky]

I have a friend of 12 years who is a life-long Baptist. I was “non-denominational” for a long time and he invited me to his church and we talked about our faith often. When I announced I was joining the Catholic Church about 4 years ago he was pretty shocked. In the course of discussions since then, he has revealed that his faith centers on an “experience of the Holy Spirit” that he had when he was about 6. Apparently this is common in his church- from his description it is something the parents tell the kids they will have and there must be a pressure to have the experience. I say that based on my one visit, during which the minister was very loud and emotional and at one point they all prostrated themselves toward the front (although there is no altar and obviously no Real Presence). Further discussions have revealed that he believes that, having had that experience, he is basically “once saved, always saved.” He is not a big Bible reader although his church is obviously set on the King James “divinely revealed” version. Whenever I have challenged him on a verse, I have noticed that he “spiritualizes” anything that has any context in reality. So when I asked about Jesus’ admonition we must all be “baptized of water and of the Spirit” he replied that the water referred to is the “living water” referred to by Jesus at the well, “proving” He clearly delineates between real water and spiritual water and our baptism is with spiritual water (although they also baptize with real water but don’t believe it has what Catholics would call a sacramental effect).

Has anyone here debated with a Baptist? How does a Catholic highlight the need for necessary things in this life- not just a refutation of “once saved always saved” but the need for sacraments, self-sacrifices during Lent, etc.?

 

[landon13]

I’m sorry, I am a former Baptist and that is not like any Baptist congregation that I know of. There is not taught by the Baptist Church that you need to have a certain spiritual awakening like that so I am not sure what church he is a part of but that is not related to the very Biblical based Baptist church that I know of.

 

[upsidedehead]

Your Baptist friend evidently subscribes to a fair amount of Calvinist theology, whether he knows it or not. Calvinists believe that a person must first be “regenerated” by the Holy Spirit before he or she can possibly obtain saving faith, so that experience that your friend claims to have had (at the tender age of 6) is deemed by him to be the regenerative experience taught by Calvinism. To your friend and others in the Calvinist tradition, he is fortunate indeed to have been chosen for this particular kind of visitation by the Holy Spirit, since that assures him that he is one of the “elect,” i.e. one of those chosen by God, even before the world was created, to be granted salvation. Those who are not so chosen would not–according to this perverse theology–be “regenerated” and are irrevocably doomed to damnation. Those who are “regenerated,” by contrast, are said to have an ironclad guarantee of salvation–the “once saved-always saved” element of Calvinism, also referred to as “perseverance of the saints.” All of this selection and rejection are said to proceed from the sovereign will of God and are thus not to be questioned by us mere mortals. Modern Baptists who hold these views ordinarily do not like to be called Calvinists. They refer instead to the basic principles of Calvinism as the “Doctrines of Grace.”

It is essential for the peace of mind of those who subscribe to this Calvinistic (or “Reformed”) doctrine to have assurance that they are indeed among the “elect.” Here is where the emotions come into play. Laboring under the presupposition that without having the necessary Holy Spirit experience, one is destined for hell fire, it becomes a pretty easy thing for one’s emotions to persuade one that he/she has actually had such an experience. Baptists sometimes make public statements about how and when they got saved. This is called “giving testimony.” Your friend, recounting his alleged experience at age 6, is, in fact, giving his testimony to you.

 

[upsidedehead]

I’m sorry, I am a former Baptist and that is not like any Baptist congregation that I know of. There is not taught by the Baptist Church that you need to have a certain spiritual awakening like that so I am not sure what church he is a part of but that is not related to the very Biblical based Baptist church that I know of.

---

I don’t know how long ago you were a Baptist, but you should understand that there has been a strong trend in Baptist churches toward mainstream Calvinistic beliefs, including all of the five points of Calvinism. There are indeed many Baptists, including many Southern Baptists, who subscribe to the notion that a person elecrted by God for salvation will have a “Holy Spirit experience.” I have covered this more fully in my post below.

 

[WaitingForJesus]

I used to be a Baptist. I am the only Catholic in my family, so I end up in discussions with them all the time. They do not have sacraments – everything is symbolic – so trying to explain the importance of the sacraments will fall on deaf ears. I really think the key element is praying and asking God to intervene…and setting a good example.

Here are a couple of key things you need to understand. They are very focused on the Bible, and the best way to make any headway is by knowing and citing scripture. You also really need to understand why you believe and do the things you do. Baptists will have no respect for you if you do not. It was a major thing when my Mother was finally convinced that my belief that the Eucharist really is the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord was not “unbiblical”. Of course that is very clear from scripture, but it took months and months of going over that with her. That doesn’t mean she believes it herself though. Only that she won’t tell me I am wrong anymore. This is because Baptists believe that everyone should interpret scripture – not just the Magisterium.

You also need to understand that many Baptists don’t think a Catholic can be saved. As you have noted, they believe that salvation is based on faith alone. Of course as Catholics we believe it is necessary, but that isn’t all there is to it. There are other problems as well – there is a misperception that we are worshipping idols when we pray to Mary and the Saints…and that we worship the Holy Father as well. These misconceptions have been passed on for generations and they are very ingrained.

Other issues you will encounter are sola scriptura, i.e. if it doesn’t say it in the Bible, you can’t believe it…and a distaste for church authority, i.e. all should be free to make their own decisions on matters of faith and morals.

I think that focusing on the real presence in the Eucharist and the fallacies of sola scriptura and sola fide are essential. Those were necessary for my own conversion. But, there will be incredible pressure on your friend not to convert. So, do not lose heart if you feel as if you aren’t getting anywhere. Just keep praying for him. God will have to get involved to break through all of this.

 

[fred_conty]

I have a friend of 12 years who is a life-long Baptist. I was “non-denominational” for a long time and he invited me to his church and we talked about our faith often. When I announced I was joining the Catholic Church about 4 years ago he was pretty shocked. In the course of discussions since then, he has revealed that his faith centers on an “experience of the Holy Spirit” that he had when he was about 6. Apparently this is common in his church- from his description it is something the parents tell the kids they will have and there must be a pressure to have the experience. I say that based on my one visit, during which the minister was very loud and emotional and at one point they all prostrated themselves toward the front (although there is no altar and obviously no Real Presence). Further discussions have revealed that he believes that, having had that experience, he is basically “once saved, always saved.” He is not a big Bible reader although his church is obviously set on the King James “divinely revealed” version. Whenever I have challenged him on a verse, I have noticed that he “spiritualizes” anything that has any context in reality. So when I asked about Jesus’ admonition we must all be “baptized of water and of the Spirit” he replied that the water referred to is the “living water” referred to by Jesus at the well, “proving” He clearly delineates between real water and spiritual water and our baptism is with spiritual water (although they also baptize with real water but don’t believe it has what Catholics would call a sacramental effect).

Has anyone here debated with a Baptist? How does a Catholic highlight the need for necessary things in this life- not just a refutation of “once saved always saved” but the need for sacraments, self-sacrifices during Lent, etc.?

It sounds very much like those who say that a person must chose Jesus as their personal Lord and saviour, which is the sum and substance of being saved. And he is substituting “personal Lord and saviour” with “experience of the Holy Spirit”. And both downplay the sacrament of baptism.

In John 3, Jesus says of Baptism, “water and spirit” not just water. So he is not receiving spirit if the water is not done. Otherwise why would Jesus say water at all? The baptism consists of both, washing away of sin thru water thus allowing the Holy Spirit to come into the person.

In John 4, Jesus didn’t mention the Holy Spirit at all to the woman.
He was drawing a parallel between the life substance from the well, and a life substance from him. I don’t know that we can say his intent was to define baptism at all. Merely to draw on her life experience to teach her something she did not know. Namely about a new life he could give her.

But the details of water baptism would be given to her later because at this point she needed to know him before she could be baptised. As he would later say, “Go teach all nations, baptising them in …” Teaching or understanding come first before water is used.

Between the two narrative of Nichodemous and the woman, notice that Nichodemous asked a direct question, to which Jesus gave a direct reply. In the case of the woman, she did not ask a question, so Jesus first had to draw her out to desire what he wanted her to desire, a new life. Beause he was a good teacher(Rabbi), he used an approach that would work.

 

[fred_conty]

But he sounds very, very happy and content in his church and feels close to God and “the holy spirit” there.
Are you wanting to convince him to leave his church?

Not to leave but to enhance.

 

[jason56716]

First off, my wife was raised as a Baptist. Independent, Bible believing, fire and brimstone Baptist Church. That wasn’t it’s name, but it could have been, Anyhow, thanks be to God, she is an on fire Catholic.

From my experience, You are going to have to accept that you will never convert a Baptist, or any other Christian, or non-Christian to the Catholic church. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. What you need to do above all is PRAY for your friend.
The next most important thing is to LIVE your faith. No one likes a hypocrite. Remember to preach the Gospel everywhere you go, but use words when necessary.
Thirdly, KNOW YOUR faith. Your friend eventually question your faith. Know the answers. However if you don’t know the answers, tell him, I don’t know that, showing humility goes further than smugness. Furthermore, having to come back to him with an answers gives you a chance to keep that door open, that dialogue with him going.
Hope this helps. if you have any questions you can contact me directly.

j

 

[jerome_ky]

…They are very focused on the Bible, and the best way to make any headway is by knowing and citing scripture…

Thank you, your answer had a lot of good info- I’m not taking this one statement to excise the rest, but to highlight. My friend’s church is very focused on the KJV as being THE Word of God in English. We got into it a little bit at one point and I got onto a website to look up a verse, and he got on to look up “call no man father” and of course it came up with nothing. That’s because the KJV verse is “call no man YOUR father” which carries a completely different connotation.

I’ll throw this question out there- I’ve wanted to bring this back up and say, You believe the KJV is the inspired word, and it says “call no man your father” and I don’t call my priest “my father” I call him Father. According to a strict reading of the verse, I shouldn’t call my own biological father “my father.” I hesitate to engage in sophistry but maybe it’s called for just to get his attention?

 

[jerome_ky]

But he sounds very, very happy and content in his church and feels close to God and “the holy spirit” there.
Are you wanting to convince him to leave his church?

I suspect your question has tongue firmly in cheek, am I right? It brings up a can of worms in either case. Jesus warned us against presuming Beelzebub when it’s actually the Holy Spirit. Vatican II’s ecumenism doesn’t seem to make this very clear, and I’m a new Catholic, so I don’t want to presume.

 

[jerome_ky]

No, no…not tongue in cheek at all, not at all.
He seems to be a “good Christian” and is devoted to his church and has a lot of faith and love for God etc…so I didn’t understand it when you said you need “help” with him.
Is it because you think he should be Catholic-Christian instead of Baptist-Christian?
When you mention Beelzebub…are you saying you think the holy spirit he is feeling in his church is the devil?

Sorry, I see now you don’t identify your religion. I was assuming Catholic and thought you were being ironic. To answer your questions: Do I think he should be Catholic? Well, yes, I believe everyone should be Catholic. Does he seem happy and content? Well, yes, and so does an atheist friend I have.

Is it Beelzebub? I was using Jesus’ answer to say that I don’t want to sin against what may be the Holy Spirit, but how can I be sure? The Holy Spirit guides us in all truth, but his religion doesn’t let him believe in the truths of the Magisterium- actually it has teachings diametrically opposed. So what am I to conclude?

 

[october_baby]

First off, my wife was raised as a Baptist. Independent, Bible believing, fire and brimstone Baptist Church. That wasn’t it’s name, but it could have been, Anyhow, thanks be to God, she is an on fire Catholic.

From my experience, You are going to have to accept that you will never convert a Baptist, or any other Christian, or non-Christian to the Catholic church. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. What you need to do above all is PRAY for your friend.
The next most important thing is to LIVE your faith. No one likes a hypocrite. Remember to preach the Gospel everywhere you go, but use words when necessary.
Thirdly, KNOW YOUR faith. Your friend eventually question your faith. Know the answers. However if you don’t know the answers, tell him, I don’t know that, showing humility goes further than smugness. Furthermore, having to come back to him with an answers gives you a chance to keep that door open, that dialogue with him going.
Hope this helps. if you have any questions you can contact me directly.

j

Good point!

 

[october_baby]

Your Baptist friend evidently subscribes to a fair amount of Calvinist theology, whether he knows it or not. Calvinists believe that a person must first be “regenerated” by the Holy Spirit before he or she can possibly obtain saving faith, so that experience that your friend claims to have had (at the tender age of 6) is deemed by him to be the regenerative experience taught by Calvinism. To your friend and others in the Calvinist tradition, he is fortunate indeed to have been chosen for this particular kind of visitation by the Holy Spirit, since that assures him that he is one of the “elect,” i.e. one of those chosen by God, even before the world was created, to be granted salvation. Those who are not so chosen would not–according to this perverse theology–be “regenerated” and are irrevocably doomed to damnation. Those who are “regenerated,” by contrast, are said to have an ironclad guarantee of salvation–the “once saved-always saved” element of Calvinism, also referred to as “perseverance of the saints.” All of this selection and rejection are said to proceed from the sovereign will of God and are thus not to be questioned by us mere mortals. Modern Baptists who hold these views ordinarily do not like to be called Calvinists. They refer instead to the basic principles of Calvinism as the “Doctrines of Grace.”

It is essential for the peace of mind of those who subscribe to this Calvinistic (or “Reformed”) doctrine to have assurance that they are indeed among the “elect.” Here is where the emotions come into play. Laboring under the presupposition that without having the necessary Holy Spirit experience, one is destined for hell fire, it becomes a pretty easy thing for one’s emotions to persuade one that he/she has actually had such an experience. Baptists sometimes make public statements about how and when they got saved. This is called “giving testimony.” Your friend, recounting his alleged experience at age 6, is, in fact, giving his testimony to you.

Thank you for the info, this tells me alot about my uncle’s theology(he’s baptist/non-denom)

 

[WaitingForJesus]

Thank you, your answer had a lot of good info- I’m not taking this one statement to excise the rest, but to highlight. My friend’s church is very focused on the KJV as being THE Word of God in English. We got into it a little bit at one point and I got onto a website to look up a verse, and he got on to look up “call no man father” and of course it came up with nothing. That’s because the KJV verse is “call no man YOUR father” which carries a completely different connotation.

I’ll throw this question out there- I’ve wanted to bring this back up and say, You believe the KJV is the inspired word, and it says “call no man your father” and I don’t call my priest “my father” I call him Father. According to a strict reading of the verse, I shouldn’t call my own biological father “my father.” I hesitate to engage in sophistry but maybe it’s called for just to get his attention?

I think you have a good point. It really doesn’t make any sense for Jesus to say you shouldn’t call your biological father “Father”. Just be gentle when you tell him that. But, you should also make it clear that our Lord’s real point is that we should not be looking to any man as a father in the way God alone is our father. HE alone gives us everything and we need to keep that in mind.

This raises another interesting point – a Baptist will tend to read scripture much more literally than you. I think that is part of what you are running into here.

 

[Farsight001]

I have a friend of 12 years who is a life-long Baptist. I was “non-denominational” for a long time and he invited me to his church and we talked about our faith often. When I announced I was joining the Catholic Church about 4 years ago he was pretty shocked. In the course of discussions since then, he has revealed that his faith centers on an “experience of the Holy Spirit” that he had when he was about 6. Apparently this is common in his church- from his description it is something the parents tell the kids they will have and there must be a pressure to have the experience. I say that based on my one visit, during which the minister was very loud and emotional and at one point they all prostrated themselves toward the front (although there is no altar and obviously no Real Presence). Further discussions have revealed that he believes that, having had that experience, he is basically “once saved, always saved.” He is not a big Bible reader although his church is obviously set on the King James “divinely revealed” version. Whenever I have challenged him on a verse, I have noticed that he “spiritualizes” anything that has any context in reality. So when I asked about Jesus’ admonition we must all be “baptized of water and of the Spirit” he replied that the water referred to is the “living water” referred to by Jesus at the well, “proving” He clearly delineates between real water and spiritual water and our baptism is with spiritual water (although they also baptize with real water but don’t believe it has what Catholics would call a sacramental effect).

I found his explanation strange. He says that the water is spiritual water? But it says that we must be baptized of water and of spirit. So if the water is spiritual water, what is the spirit? Spiritual…spirit? It makes no logical sense. The only way it makes sense is if spirit refers to real spirit and water refers to real water.

As for the importance of the sacraments - I wouldn’t concentrate on that. You first have to get them to realize that we are supposed to have and perform/participate in the sacraments before you convince them they are important. IMO, you should look to the anointing of the sick, which is a clearly presented sacrament in the bible, which actually describes in fair detail what one should do.

James 5:14 - “Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.”

It’s a clear instruction to have the elders of the church pray over and anoint the sick with oil. (no spiritual oil here) If, as I would bet, his church elders don’t do this, you should ask him why, since the instruction is so clearly laid out in the bible.

 

[rebekah0207]

I’ll throw this question out there- I’ve wanted to bring this back up and say, You believe the KJV is the inspired word, and it says “call no man your father” and I don’t call my priest “my father” I call him Father. According to a strict reading of the verse, I shouldn’t call my own biological father “my father.” I hesitate to engage in sophistry but maybe it’s called for just to get his attention?

If you do a search on “call no man father” on the main catholic dot com website, a number of good articles on that topic come up. I know because I looked it up myself recently

I believe the Holy Spirit could certainly be at work in the man’s church. God meets people where they’re at, and many Protestants are worshiping and seeking God according to the truth that they have. I really second what WaitingForJesus and Jason said with regards to how to witness to him. All of my husband’s and my family are still Protestant and many of them are very sincere Christians. My parents drive an hour and half each way to attend a Mennonite church (my mother has joined, my father has not due to some questions he still has, but we’ve visited the church and the families are wonderful.) Anyway, my personal focus is not on converting but more on dispelling the myths that they believe about Catholicism.