Need help with a conversation I had with an Orthodox

[NorthTexan88]

There’s an Orthodox Church down the street from where I live, I was running today and stopped to talk to some parishioners standing on the street out of curiosity (don’t know any Orthodox). Anyways while talking to them they asked what I was, I said Catholic and it kinda went down from there. They weren’t mean or anything, but they kept saying how the things that have been going on in the Church since V2 prove that the Catholic Church can’t be the true Church bc it now teaches error and contradicts things taught before (I’m pretty sure this guy was an ex Catholic). When I told them about the “gates of Hell” and how the Church will never die or teach error, they implied that this only applied to the Orthodox Churches and the current Catholic Church proves that…

Anyways I wasn’t able to properly answer bc I was caught off guard. Can someone explain how I could have answered in case this happens again?

Had a thought…Do Catholics view Orthodox in a better way than Orthodox view us? Just curious

 

[JerryZ]

There’s an Orthodox Church down the street from where I live, I was running today and stopped to talk to some parishioners standing on the street out of curiosity (don’t know any Orthodox). Anyways while talking to them they asked what I was, I said Catholic and it kinda went down from there. They weren’t mean or anything, but they kept saying how the things that have been going on in the Church since V2 prove that the Catholic Church can’t be the true Church bc it now teaches error and contradicts things taught before (I’m pretty sure this guy was an ex Catholic). When I told them about the “gates of Hell” and how the Church will never die or teach error, they implied that this only applied to the Orthodox Churches and the current Catholic Church proves that…

Anyways I wasn’t able to properly answer bc I was caught off guard. Can someone explain how I could have answered in case this happens again?

Had a thought…Do Catholics view Orthodox in a better way than Orthodox view us? Just curious

I would have just asked what exactly was the Church teaching now that was in “contradiction” with prior teachings…

Seem that the anti Catholic stance is so pervasive eveybody “thinks” they know what the Church teaches except very few actually really know the truth.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

Ask him specifically what the errors and contradictions are.

“Do Catholics view Orthodox in a better way than Orthodox view us?” The Catholic Church is the largest Christian church and the only one truly universal, worldwide. I suppose that makes us a target for all schismatics of every stripe who feel the need to justify their schism. The current Patriarch of Constantinople does not seem anti-Catholic.

Certainly Pope Benedict, as with John Paul II, would give his life for re-communion with the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and SSPX.

 

[dzheremi]

Polemics aside, this kind of on the spot evangelism or ecumenism or whatever generally doesn’t go well for anybody. I have had the same experience myself, as an Orthodox Christian living in a heavily Roman Catholic state. 99% of the time we get along really well, though. We have regular Catholic visitors at our church, and we love each other very much. But we also don’t generally get into those kinds of conversations with strangers. The last time that happened it was actually kind of funny, rather than discouraging. I was on foot, stopped at a traffic light near the local university, waiting for the ‘walk’ sign. A guy pulled up to the same light in a truck and called out to me:

Him: Hey! You believe in Jesus Christ?
Me: Yes.
Him: Good! He’s coming back, y’know. Pray the Hail Mary!
Me: Um…okay…‘Shere ne Maria, ti-cherombi ethnesos…’ (this Coptic hymn, which begins “Hail to you, Mary”)
Him: Yeah! Maria! It’s all about Mary!

Then he honked his horn a few times and drove away. Kind of puzzling, but funny.

You will find a wide range of opinions on the Roman Catholic Church among Orthodox Christians, since there is no official, across-the-board stance on other churches in the Orthodox Church.

 

[WoundedIcon]

Maybe you should have mentioned the Orthodox church’s flip-flop on divorce and contraception.

 

[fordhamstudent]

The reality is the Eastern Orthodox Church is a Communion which effectively stopped its dogmatic development at the 7th Ecumenical Council whereas the Catholic Communion continued and still continues both dogmatic and doctrinal development to this day and will until the end of time. So one can understand why there would be communication challenges between the followers of both Churches–who in reality are both Catholic and Apostolic. The problem the Orthodox face without development is admitted by the Patriarch of Constantinople to this day which is why they are trying to prepare for a holy and great Pan-Eastern Orthodox Ecumenical Council which will be able to assist the Orthodox Churches to update their liturgy, moral theology, canon law, etc to prevent stagnation. The Catholic Church united to the Pope is a living Body while the Orthodox understand the stagnation which occured through being occupied by the Ottomans and not being able to hold an Ecumenical Council since the 7th Ecumenical Council. The Orthodox Church is a Catholic Church frozen in time, the Catholic Church united to Rome is forever progressive and forward thinking and is not afraid of either dogmatic or doctrinal development since it takes seriously the promise of the Lord that the Spirit will not only remind the Church of what Christ taught, but reveal to it the mysteries of the Kingdom over time. The Oriental Orthodox, a Communion which rejected the 4-7 Ecumenical Councils, is also seen as a stagnant body by the Eastern Orthodox who believe they are frozen in time as well. It is clear when speaking with the Orthodox that one is dealing with almost a pre-historical Catholic who in being frozen in time does not understand the new language which you as a Catholic use to articulate the same orthodox Faith since your Communion is not only far more advanced theologically, but also doctrinally and dogmatically. This advancement does not mean they are less Catholic, but rather that they do not have the fullness of the Catholic Faith–which can be easily rectified with a profession of faith and submission in heart and mind to the Roman Pontiff.

 

[dzheremi]

The Oriental Orthodox, a Communion which rejected the 4-7 Ecumenical Councils

This is not a good way to put it. The Oriental Orthodox reject Chalcedon on principle, but the later Councils to which the Eastern Orthodox assent are not so much rejected also out of principle, but considered to be irrelevant/unnecessary to our churches. The difference might be explained with reference to the 7th ecumenical council of the Chalcedonians, which restored the proper veneration of icons in the churches. We non-Chalcedonians agree wholeheartedly with that veneration, but did not face the iconoclasm that the Byzantines did, so we never had a council about it.

is also seen as a stagnant body by the Eastern Orthodox who believe they are frozen in time as well.

What are you basing this on? I have never heard or read this accusation from any EO. It would be an odd complaint from a communion which prides itself on being unchanged.

 

[fordhamstudent]

The problem is not with the ecumenists in each tradition, but with the Traditionalists–who assert, rather honestly, what each respective Church actually held to be true versus the historic and doctrinal revisionists who see no obstacles to unity and desire to sacrifice our differences on the altar of Church unity–which is a poor way of achieving the ecumenical dream.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Hi NorthTexan88,

I’m sorry your experience wasn’t a positive one. I agree with you that if that guy was taking V2, maybe he was a former Catholic? I am a former Catholic, too.

It sounds like you would like to know what he may have been referring to so that you can strengthen your Apologetics skills and be prepared to provide a strong Catholic response to Orthodox Christians in the future, with that in mind, I post the following:

I’m not sure exactly what he was referring to, one thing that he MAY have been thinking of when he said the Catholic Church “now…contradicts things taught before” is something that posed a difficulty to me personally while Catholic that I never did find a satisfying answer to is in 1870 Papal Infallibility was declared, yet in the 6th Ecumenical Council in 680 Pope Honorius was anathematized as a heretic for his teaching that Christ has only one will, a heresy named Monothelitism, in letters responding to a formal request from the Patriarch of Constantinople for an official decision regarding a major controversy that was in the Church at the time. The condemnation of Honorius was confirmed in the 7th Ecumenical Council in 787. Generally, this is something that is seen by Orthodox Christians as a contradiction to Papal Infallibility definition. I found that there is a Catholic response: Papal Infallibility does not apply to Popes’ excathedra teachings on faith and morals prior to the definition of Papal Infallibility in 1870. Orthodox response is that if a teaching wasn’t there from the beginning, it can’t rightfully be there now. Catholic response to that is that doctrine develops. This is where, I believe, the disconnect is for Orthodox Christians. Perhaps there is a way to bridge this disconnect with an explanation for Orthodox Christians on how it’s possible that Papal Infallibility wasn’t applicable prior to 1870 since it is seen by Catholics are found in the seed/deposit of Faith given by Christ to the Church? Perhaps this bridge could be applicable to other “developed” doctrine as well?

I hope this helps with where you could begin with Catholic Apologetics to the Orthodox.

I hope your next encounter with an Orthodox Christian is more fruitful for you.

There’s an Orthodox Church down the street from where I live, I was running today and stopped to talk to some parishioners standing on the street out of curiosity (don’t know any Orthodox). Anyways while talking to them they asked what I was, I said Catholic and it kinda went down from there. They weren’t mean or anything, but they kept saying how the things that have been going on in the Church since V2 prove that the Catholic Church can’t be the true Church bc it now teaches error and contradicts things taught before (I’m pretty sure this guy was an ex Catholic). When I told them about the “gates of Hell” and how the Church will never die or teach error, they implied that this only applied to the Orthodox Churches and the current Catholic Church proves that…

Anyways I wasn’t able to properly answer bc I was caught off guard. Can someone explain how I could have answered in case this happens again?

Had a thought…Do Catholics view Orthodox in a better way than Orthodox view us? Just curious

 

[Khalid]

Ex cathedra applies from the beginning. Pope Honorius was not teaching ex cathedra. Even if he was in material heresy, he was not in formal heresy. (Non-sequitur, I know, but I think you get my gist.)

 

[fhansen]

There’s an Orthodox Church down the street from where I live, I was running today and stopped to talk to some parishioners standing on the street out of curiosity (don’t know any Orthodox). Anyways while talking to them they asked what I was, I said Catholic and it kinda went down from there. They weren’t mean or anything, but they kept saying how the things that have been going on in the Church since V2 prove that the Catholic Church can’t be the true Church bc it now teaches error and contradicts things taught before (I’m pretty sure this guy was an ex Catholic). When I told them about the “gates of Hell” and how the Church will never die or teach error, they implied that this only applied to the Orthodox Churches and the current Catholic Church proves that…

Anyways I wasn’t able to properly answer bc I was caught off guard. Can someone explain how I could have answered in case this happens again?

Had a thought…Do Catholics view Orthodox in a better way than Orthodox view us? Just curious

There are several reasons given by some Orthodox commentators for why the CC is not true Church. I suppose he’s referring to the Church’s Vat II teaching on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus in this case. Anyway, yes, I don’t know that the Orthodox can be said to have an official teaching on the RCC since those Churches aren’t united in such a way that could allow them to speak as one voice.

The RCC position, OTOH, is that the Eastern Orthodox are true Churches, having apostolic succession. Pope Benedict refferred to the EO as the ‘other lung of the Church’. According to Rome the primary cause of division between east and west is over the question of authority; by not accepting the authority of Rome in matters of faith and morals the east is said to be in schism with the Church.

 

[guanophore]

 There's an Orthodox Church down the street from where I live, I was running today and stopped to talk to some parishioners standing on the street out of curiosity (don't know any Orthodox). Anyways while talking to them they asked what I was, I said Catholic and it kinda went down from there. They weren't mean or anything, but they kept saying how the things that have been going on in the Church since V2 prove that the Catholic Church can't be the true Church bc it now teaches error and contradicts things taught before (I'm pretty sure this guy was an ex Catholic). When I told them about the "gates of Hell" and how the Church will never die or teach error, they implied that this only applied to the Orthodox Churches and the current Catholic Church proves that...

Anyways I wasn’t able to properly answer bc I was caught off guard. Can someone explain how I could have answered in case this happens again?

Rather than confronting parishioners, I would suggest that you attend Divine Liturgy, and do some study about Orthodoxy. Do not set out with the intent to prove to them how Catholics are “right” and Orthodox are not.

Had a thought…Do Catholics view Orthodox in a better way than Orthodox view us? Just curious

We have much more in common than not, and very much more than any other denominations have with either of us. Yes, the CC considers the sacraments and Holy Orders of the Orthodox valid, but this does not work the other way.

 

[fred_conty]

North Texan, you said,
"They weren’t MEAN or anything, but they kept saying … that the Catholic Church can’t be the true Church … "

??? They could have said “Hi” in a lot less time.

Just say “thanks, and have a nice day”.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Rather than confronting parishioners, I would suggest that you attend Divine Liturgy, and do some study about Orthodoxy. Do not set out with the intent to prove to them how Catholics are “right” and Orthodox are not.

Doesn’t sound like that’s what the OP did…Catholicism didn’t even come up until they asked him about it.

 

[jcrichton]

The reality is the Eastern Orthodox Church is a Communion which effectively stopped its dogmatic development at the 7th Ecumenical Council whereas the Catholic Communion continued and still continues both dogmatic and doctrinal development to this day and will until the end of time. So one can understand why there would be communication challenges between the followers of both Churches–who in reality are both Catholic and Apostolic. The problem the Orthodox face without development is admitted by the Patriarch of Constantinople to this day which is why they are trying to prepare for a holy and great Pan-Eastern Orthodox Ecumenical Council which will be able to assist the Orthodox Churches to update their liturgy, moral theology, canon law, etc to prevent stagnation. The Catholic Church united to the Pope is a living Body while the Orthodox understand the stagnation which occured through being occupied by the Ottomans and not being able to hold an Ecumenical Council since the 7th Ecumenical Council. The Orthodox Church is a Catholic Church frozen in time, the Catholic Church united to Rome is forever progressive and forward thinking and is not afraid of either dogmatic or doctrinal development since it takes seriously the promise of the Lord that the Spirit will not only remind the Church of what Christ taught, but reveal to it the mysteries of the Kingdom over time. The Oriental Orthodox, a Communion which rejected the 4-7 Ecumenical Councils, is also seen as a stagnant body by the Eastern Orthodox who believe they are frozen in time as well. It is clear when speaking with the Orthodox that one is dealing with almost a pre-historical Catholic who in being frozen in time does not understand the new language which you as a Catholic use to articulate the same orthodox Faith since your Communion is not only far more advanced theologically, but also doctrinally and dogmatically. This advancement does not mean they are less Catholic, but rather that they do not have the fullness of the Catholic Faith–which can be easily rectified with a profession of faith and submission in heart and mind to the Roman Pontiff.

…wow… quite a mouthful! :clapping::clapping::clapping:

…I find that just a simple gap/misunderstanding can lead to the schisms suffered by the Church… and that, as with Protestantism, that separation becomes immense as the separated brethrens do not enjoy the fullness of the Faith… just a simple frame of language (“Who procedes from the Father and the Son”) can become an impass, not insurmountable but almost unmovable as pride sets in!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi NorthTexan88,

I’m sorry your experience wasn’t a positive one. I agree with you that if that guy was taking V2, maybe he was a former Catholic? I am a former Catholic, too.

It sounds like you would like to know what he may have been referring to so that you can strengthen your Apologetics skills and be prepared to provide a strong Catholic response to Orthodox Christians in the future, with that in mind, I post the following:

I’m not sure exactly what he was referring to, one thing that he MAY have been thinking of when he said the Catholic Church “now…contradicts things taught before” is something that posed a difficulty to me personally while Catholic that I never did find a satisfying answer to is in 1870 Papal Infallibility was declared, yet in the 6th Ecumenical Council in 680 Pope Honorius was anathematized as a heretic for his teaching that Christ has only one will, a heresy named Monothelitism, in letters responding to a formal request from the Patriarch of Constantinople for an official decision regarding a major controversy that was in the Church at the time. The condemnation of Honorius was confirmed in the 7th Ecumenical Council in 787. Generally, this is something that is seen by Orthodox Christians as a contradiction to Papal Infallibility definition. I found that there is a Catholic response: Papal Infallibility does not apply to Popes’ excathedra teachings on faith and morals prior to the definition of Papal Infallibility in 1870. Orthodox response is that if a teaching wasn’t there from the beginning, it can’t rightfully be there now. Catholic response to that is that doctrine develops. This is where, I believe, the disconnect is for Orthodox Christians. Perhaps there is a way to bridge this disconnect with an explanation for Orthodox Christians on how it’s possible that Papal Infallibility wasn’t applicable prior to 1870 since it is seen by Catholics are found in the seed/deposit of Faith given by Christ to the Church? Perhaps this bridge could be applicable to other “developed” doctrine as well?

I hope this helps with where you could begin with Catholic Apologetics to the Orthodox.

I hope your next encounter with an Orthodox Christian is more fruitful for you.

I think that the problem lies in usage and understanding… here’s a take on this issue:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Honorius_I
Although Honorius never issued a dogmatic (ex cathedra) decree in regards to the controversy of Christ’s wills,[1] he favoured Monothelitism. He supported a formula proposed by the Byzantine Emperor Heraclius with the design of bringing about a reconciliation between Monothelites and the rest of the Catholic Church. Monothelitism is the teaching that Christ has only one will, the divine will, in contrast with the teaching that He has both a divine will and a human will. To this end, Honorius “sent his deacon Gaios” to a synod in Cyprus in 634 hosted by archbishop Arkadios II with additional representatives from Patriarch Sergius I of Constantinople. The anti-Monothelite side in Jerusalem, championed by Maximus the Confessor and Sophronius of Jerusalem, sent to this synod Anastasius (a pupil of Maximus), George of Reshaina (a pupil of Sophronius), two of George of Raishana’s own pupils, and eight bishops from Palestine. When the two sides were presented to the Emperor, the Emperor persisted with Monothelitism and so did Honorius. (George of Reshaina, “An Early Life of Maximus the Confessor”, 316–7)

…if the cited material is correct, Pope Honorius did not exact a decree ex cathedra (infallible) but held, as many Believers do, a personal opinion/slant which, as you have pointed out, was rejected by the Church.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Rather than confronting parishioners, I would suggest that you attend Divine Liturgy, and do some study about Orthodoxy. Do not set out with the intent to prove to them how Catholics are “right” and Orthodox are not.

We have much more in common than not, and very much more than any other denominations have with either of us. Yes, the CC considers the sacraments and Holy Orders of the Orthodox valid, but this does not work the other way.

Excellent advise and observation, guanophore! :tiphat:

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

There’s an Orthodox Church down the street from where I live, I was running today and stopped to talk to some parishioners standing on the street out of curiosity (don’t know any Orthodox). Anyways while talking to them they asked what I was, I said Catholic and it kinda went down from there. They weren’t mean or anything, but they kept saying how the things that have been going on in the Church since V2 prove that the Catholic Church can’t be the true Church bc it now teaches error and contradicts things taught before (I’m pretty sure this guy was an ex Catholic). When I told them about the “gates of Hell” and how the Church will never die or teach error, they implied that this only applied to the Orthodox Churches and the current Catholic Church proves that…

Anyways I wasn’t able to properly answer bc I was caught off guard. Can someone explain how I could have answered in case this happens again?

Had a thought…Do Catholics view Orthodox in a better way than Orthodox view us? Just curious

…since I am quite ignorant on orthodoxy, I decided to go through all posts before my twos… there are two things that you must do: 1) get immersed in your Faith so that you may have the conviction and familiarity to defend it, and 2) get to know the other’s belief system…

…always remember that it is the Holy Spirit that will convict us… so pray to the Holy Spirit that He Guides you as you attempt ecumenism so that you may not lose yourself nor become a hinderance to others… prayer, patience, and love!

Maran atha!

Angel