Need help with a St. Thomas Aquinas Quote

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Can anyone relate to me what the following quote from St. Thomas Aquinas means?

‘If forgers and malefactors are put to death by the secular power, there is much more reason for excommunicating and even putting to death one convicted of heresy.’

Is this an accurate quote confirmed from St. Thomas Aquinas? If so, what is he taling about?
 
You’re missing the other half of the quote, that’s incomplete.

The other half is saying that the Church in her mercy should keep the person alive so “the heretic” would have time to repent.

His thought is: forgery and maliciousness are crimes on Earth and are not spiritual (in a sense) and won’t cause a person to loose faith, while heresy will cause a number of people to be blinded to the true faith and a lot more souls will be at stake for one heretic than the one forger. Because the heretic is going to cause more malice spiritually and cause more people to question the Church in a time where the Church was not attacked by secular powers nearly in the same manner as today, the heretic should also be put to death. Heresy, a higher crime against humanity, should have a high sentence.

But again, although I don’t have the second half of the quote on hand, the second half of the quote allows for repentance of the heretic.
 
The line is from St. Thomas Aquinas. Summa Theologica II-II.11.3

ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.SS_Q11_A3.html
Whether heretics ought to be tolerated?
Objection 1: It seems that heretics ought to be tolerated. For the Apostle says (2 Tim. 2:24,25): “The servant of the Lord must not wrangle . . . with modesty admonishing them that resist the truth, if peradventure God may give them repentance to know the truth, and they may recover themselves from the snares of the devil.” Now if heretics are not tolerated but put to death, they lose the opportunity of repentance. Therefore it seems contrary to the Apostle’s command.
Objection 2: Further, whatever is necessary in the Church should be tolerated. Now heresies are necessary in the Church, since the Apostle says (1 Cor. 11:19): “There must be . . . heresies, that they . . . who are reproved, may be manifest among you.” Therefore it seems that heretics should be tolerated.
Objection 3: Further, the Master commanded his servants (Mat. 13:30) to suffer the cockle “to grow until the harvest,” i.e. the end of the world, as a gloss explains it. Now holy men explain that the cockle denotes heretics. Therefore heretics should be tolerated.
On the contrary, The Apostle says (Titus 3:10,11): “A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted.”
I answer that, With regard to heretics two points must be observed: one, on their own side; the other, on the side of the Church. On their own side there is the sin, whereby they deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.
On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but “after the first and second admonition,” as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death. For Jerome commenting on Gal. 5:9, “A little leaven,” says: “Cut off the decayed flesh, expel the mangy sheep from the fold, lest the whole house, the whole paste, the whole body, the whole flock, burn, perish, rot, die. Arius was but one spark in Alexandria, but as that spark was not at once put out, the whole earth was laid waste by its flame.”
Reply to Objection 1: This very modesty demands that the heretic should be admonished a first and second time: and if he be unwilling to retract, he must be reckoned as already “subverted,” as we may gather from the words of the Apostle quoted above.
Reply to Objection 2: The profit that ensues from heresy is beside the intention of heretics, for it consists in the constancy of the faithful being put to the test, and “makes us shake off our sluggishness, and search the Scriptures more carefully,” as Augustine states (De Gen. cont. Manich. i, 1). What they really intend is the corruption of the faith, which is to inflict very great harm indeed. Consequently we should consider what they directly intend, and expel them, rather than what is beside their intention, and so, tolerate them.
Reply to Objection 3: According to Decret. (xxiv, qu. iii, can. Notandum), “to be excommunicated is not to be uprooted.” A man is excommunicated, as the Apostle says (1 Cor. 5:5) that his “spirit may be saved in the day of Our Lord.” Yet if heretics be altogether uprooted by death, this is not contrary to Our Lord’s command, which is to be understood as referring to the case when the cockle cannot be plucked up without plucking up the wheat, as we explained above (Q[10], A[8], ad 1), when treating of unbelievers in general.
The upshot is that the heretic has no right to expect the Church to permit heresy to spread; but the Church has certain reasons for not always using (or permitting/requiring Catholics possessed of secular power to use) justified force to compel the baptized to give the assent to which they are bound by baptism, foremost among which are the hope that the disobedient baptized may yet be reconciled in this lifetime, short of the hoped-for reconciliation in the End.
 
The line is from St. Thomas Aquinas. Summa Theologica II-II.11.3

ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.SS_Q11_A3.html

The upshot is that the heretic has no right to expect the Church to permit heresy to spread; but the Church has certain reasons for not always using (or permitting/requiring Catholics possessed of secular power to use) justified force to compel the baptized to give the assent to which they are bound by baptism, foremost among which are the hope that the disobedient baptized may yet be reconciled in this lifetime, short of the hoped-for reconciliation in the End.
I am always horrified to see statements such as that of Aquinas, justifying religious intolerance and oppression. Persecuting people for their beliefs is wrong now, and was wrong then.
 
I am always horrified to see statements such as that of Aquinas, justifying religious intolerance and oppression. Persecuting people for their beliefs is wrong now, and was wrong then.
Except it is not wrong to expel and be intolerant of those who claim to be of the same Faith but are shouting out lies and falsehoods of the Faith–which is the position Aquinas is stating. It is also not wrong to be intolerant of those who are not of the same Faith and who also shout out lies and falsehoods of your Faith.
 
Everyone is spreading lies about eachother today but we dont give them two chances to reform and then put them to death. Thats the mentality of Radical Islam.

Jesus said to pray for your enemies, not kill them. Jesus never said it was ok to kill anyone. excommunicated is one thing but to put someone to death, I don’t think so.
 
Everyone is spreading lies about eachother today but we dont give them two chances to reform and then put them to death. Thats the mentality of Radical Islam.

Jesus said to pray for your enemies, not kill them. Jesus never said it was ok to kill anyone. excommunicated is one thing but to put someone to death, I don’t think so.
You’re forgetting one thing: St Thomas Aquinas did not live in the 21st Century. Therefore, we should not scrutinize his writings about temporal, secular, punishments with the lens of a Western 21st Century person. Just as we cannot judge a person today, we REALLY cannot judge a person from the past because we don’t understand the secular states of the day. We never lived through them. Of course putting someone to death over heresy is wrong, but we must remember the time period as well.
 
Except it is not wrong to expel and be intolerant of those who claim to be of the same Faith but are shouting out lies and falsehoods of the Faith–which is the position Aquinas is stating. It is also not wrong to be intolerant of those who are not of the same Faith and who also shout out lies and falsehoods of your Faith.
Ummm - yes it is. People have a right to their beliefs, even about your religion, just as you have a right to yours about theirs.
 
You’re forgetting one thing: St Thomas Aquinas did not live in the 21st Century. Therefore, we should not scrutinize his writings about temporal, secular, punishments with the lens of a Western 21st Century person. Just as we cannot judge a person today, we REALLY cannot judge a person from the past because we don’t understand the secular states of the day. We never lived through them. Of course putting someone to death over heresy is wrong, but we must remember the time period as well.
And why is this not ‘situation ethics’, so condemned by the Catholic Church. I thought things were either objectively right or wrong in the Catholic view. How does time make a difference to morality?
 
You’re forgetting one thing: St Thomas Aquinas did not live in the 21st Century. Therefore, we should not scrutinize his writings about temporal, secular, punishments with the lens of a Western 21st Century person. Just as we cannot judge a person today, we REALLY cannot judge a person from the past because we don’t understand the secular states of the day. We never lived through them. Of course putting someone to death over heresy is wrong, but we must remember the time period as well.
I’m aware he lived in the 1200’s, but still not right to kill heretics, no matter what. Jesus never said to kill in my name.
 
Catholics are obligated to believe, and the Bible teaches, that at the end of the day human freedom (as a metaphysical fact) is less important than right relationship, than charity (as the sum of all goods); and when we freely do what militates against charity, and then insist on our freedom, we harm ourselves and others and prevent charity from prevailing. In the end, then, if our freedom (which can never be eliminated) must be coerced–whether by the promise of punishment here, or the certainty of torment for those who remain separated from God forever–in order that charity may prevail, then God is OK with that. Happy? no. but obviously willing and able and right to do it.

Hence the very embodiment of love, Jesus Christ, who proclaimed the blessedness of those humble and hungry and oppressed who “inherit the earth” and “shall be filled” by their trust in Christ rather than in their power or wealth, warned us all that setting ourselves against them in oppression or callousness would separate us from Him eternally: usccb.org/bible/matthew/25:31 . He warns us that vincible ignorance of Him would be blameworthy, and would separate us from Him eternally: usccb.org/bible/lk/13:22 . Thus the Church teaches us ( scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1021 ) to be prepared to face the judgment St. Paul also speaks of ( usccb.org/bible/romans/2:5 ). We are to avoid those sins which separate us from the love of Christ, which break charity with God and man, and to seek reconciliation with Christ and His Church so we can be prepared to face that judgement, no matter when we die: scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm#1855 .

Now, it may be the case that the Church can help me hear the truth by making it clear that reconciliation for serious sins is a serious matter, so that I will be unlikely to be deceived by the notion that it is a trivial matter to walk away from and return to my faith and morals. The Church can also help me return from serious sin by making it clear that any sin can be forgiven, provided only we are really willing to let ourselves be transformed. The Church has, in other words, no lack of options for dealing with the pastoral needs of those she has been sent to serve and to rule (both are true in the Kingdom of God, God’s Lamb being also Shepherd among God’s sheep). St. Thomas makes that clear.

It’s important to understand the two part statement St. Thomas makes. First, we might say that St. Thomas asserts that it is impossible to have a “right” to commit mortal sin. Charity with God is the foundation and consummation of all that is true, good, and beautiful; it is therefore inconceivable that any form of “right” could exist against that. Second, though, St. Thomas asserts that it is right and good that the Church tries to convince others in compassion, rather than simply coercing everyone who has done wrong. In other words, while it would be wrong for the secular arm to withhold punishment for murder or rape or robbery, seeking instead to persuade felons to change their ways, it is quite right for the Church to withhold punishment for heresy, apostasy, or unbelief among the baptized, seeking instead to persuade the baptized to remain faithful to their calling. It would be foolish to deny that the Christ who promises to judge us according to what His work has made of us, who threatens us for our violence against the charity which He died to make prevail, has through His Headship in His Body, the Church, every right and power and competency to require that we not injure ourselves, and to use whatever means He, by His Spirit, directs us to use.

That’s not to say that forced conversions are acceptable (though some such things have happened, as for instance among the Vikings in the 990s, they have never been the teaching of the Church). But baptism brings us into the Body, and we have serious responsibilities with eternal repercussions as members of that Body, and if our temporal lives can become the means to make those eternal truths clear, then they must.
 
Can anyone relate to me what the following quote from St. Thomas Aquinas means?

‘If forgers and malefactors are put to death by the secular power, there is much more reason for excommunicating and even putting to death one convicted of heresy.’

Is this an accurate quote confirmed from St. Thomas Aquinas? If so, what is he taling about?
I suppose it is accurate. It means that if a heretic is spreading heresy like a wildfire (spiritual murder) he should be killed, if he doesn’t repent. Keep in mind this was way back when people couldn’t defend themselves for lack of knowledge, and in order to protect people the state executed them. The pope has commented on how he is sorry that force was used. My reasoning for it is because if people were better educated there would’ve been no need for it and there heresy would’ve died off. in very very very very very very extreme cases I think it can be alright to use the death penalty for heretics (think mass murder spiritually like Adolf Hitler, but spiritually), but in modern day society there is absolutely no need for this.

So basically he was saying in his day and age with society like it was, it is better for a heretic to be put to death if they are unrepentant than someone with a smaller crime.
 
Ummm - yes it is. People have a right to their beliefs, even about your religion, just as you have a right to yours about theirs.
Perhaps you did not read what I said. If you take the time to reply, I should hope you would actually read what I wrote and not completely dismiss the words.

I said that it is not wrong to be intolerant of those of the same faith as yourself who are putting forth outright lies. To illustrate the point that you have completely missed: when a Catholic starts promoting the idea that Jesus was not truly God, then he is putting forth a heretical idea and that person should not be tolerated. In the same manner of illustration: if a Muslim puts forth the idea that Jesus was not God, he & his point of view cannot be tolerated because he is still stating lies, despite his not being of the same faith as Catholics.

Being intolerant of a position is not at all the same as going forth and killing them because of the heresy. It just means that you should actively try correcting their point of view.
 
Perhaps you did not read what I said. If you take the time to reply, I should hope you would actually read what I wrote and not completely dismiss the words.

I said that it is not wrong to be intolerant of those of the same faith as yourself who are putting forth outright lies. To illustrate the point that you have completely missed: when a Catholic starts promoting the idea that Jesus was not truly God, then he is putting forth a heretical idea and that person should not be tolerated. In the same manner of illustration: if a Muslim puts forth the idea that Jesus was not God, he & his point of view cannot be tolerated because he is still stating lies, despite his not being of the same faith as Catholics.

Being intolerant of a position is not at all the same as going forth and killing them because of the heresy. It just means that you should actively try correcting their point of view.
I did indeed read what you said, and I indeed understood it, as your reiteration of a attempted justification of religious intolerance demonstrates. My comment stands. People have a right to change their views, and express them. Incidentally, I am pretty sure that in Catholic moral theology a think becomes a ‘lie’ only when it is uttered knowing it to be false.
 
People have a right to change their views, and express them
It doesn’t really help to keep reiterating that language about a “right.” Clearly, neither St. Thomas nor I, nor by your accusation (though not, possibly, by their own declaration) others on this thread, agree that any such “right” necessarily exists. More specifically, I think we could reasonably deny the existence of any right to commit mortal sin, and do so on soundly traditional and thoroughly rational grounds.

You seem to have the notion that a “right” inheres in a person, the way a habit or an idea might. But a “right” is intrinsically social, a claim that cannot justly be denied; and that “right” exists within a certain juridical frame, some way of resolving questions of justice. So a “civil right” is one that exists within the context of a given civil society, and is enforced by government. A “human right” exists within the context of humanity beyond any given civil society (though we hope many human rights also become civil rights), and is enforced by … what? Christendom says, “God.” In fact, the development of the concept of “human rights” that we now appeal to when civil society behaves unjustly is concurrent with, and dependent upon, the development of a consensus in which one could appeal beyond “Nature” to “Nature’s God,” a consensus so important that even in the disintegration of Christian orthodoxy, Deists and Liberals and Romantics and Straussians have continued to maintain the necessity of some sort of ontotheology (leading to the existentialist critique of same). [similarly, from Socrates to Confucius, you will find that civic religion is the guarantor of civil rights]

Now, if you live in the United States or most Western nations, as well as most nations in what we might loosely term the “global West” (such as Japan), you do indeed enjoy religious liberty–you have a “civil right” to change beliefs and affiliations. But bear in mind that a “civil right” may reflect the priorities of a given society (for example, in the US you have a “civil right” against ethnic discrimination in renting housing, but no “civil right” to specify what sorts of people you would prefer to rent to) or the practicalities of a given system of justice (for example, in the US you have a “civil right” to trial by jury, but no “civil right” to a jury familiar with the facts of the case). In other words, it is possible that you have a “civil right” which is actually a wrong against another, or that the regime of “civil rights” afforded you is injurious or unjust toward you or toward others.

Of course, it is possible–we hope it is so!–that the development of the Western consensus on “human rights” from Christian thought has left us with a state of civil society in which the “civil rights” we enjoy reflect our “human rights” to a very great extent. In such a context, it may be possible that (for example) the work of the Church through education and persuasion proceeds much farther, and with fewer violent obstacles, than it would in regimes less transformed by Christian teaching.

But that does not change the underlying logic. A “human right” is a claim against another which cannot be denied justly, where “justice” is defined and enforced by God Himself. Ultimately, any “civil right” is transitory unless it actually states and protects a “human right” (and no “civil right” can ultimately obtain against a “human right”–I can’t ultimately have a “civil right” to brutally enslave my neighbor, though a government is capable of defining and enforcing such an arrangement). So where God has revealed what is just to us, we cannot possibly claim any “right” to the contrary. There is no justice above God’s justice; ultimately, there is no justice except God’s justice.

God has created us metaphysically free to make choices; we believe He has done so because our free assent is necessary to the charity which He wishes to prevail among us and with Him. Therefore, we do not believe we may–it’s a matter of command, not just concession, that we may not–attempt to force anyone to come to Christian faith. Baptism must necessarily be freely consented to (though it is rightly the family’s decision that its children be baptized).

But the baptized are not just any humans. They are, in the Church, party to rights and obligations directly revealed as His justice, which is necessarily superior to its partial reflection in the justice of civil societies. Thus, though the Church recognizes the principle of “subsidiarity” and avoids treating the present age of the world as though it were the Kingdom to come, and even as the Church that recognizes human life as sacred, it holds the eternity of each human life of more importance than its present condition or duration.

Based on the above, then, I reiterate: there can be no right to commit mortal sin (and therefore no just claim against God or His Church, whatever the case may be with regard to civil authorities, to be free to commit mortal sin); YET the Church is wise to pursue her pastoral duties by education and persuasion in preference to coercion (and therefore wise to encourage and defend the “civil right” of religious liberty, which makes it possible for such education and persuasion to flourish).

This teaching of St. Thomas, by the way, is also why it makes perfect sense for the Church to both defend religious liberty from secularist incursions, and to encourage the passage of legislation which engages the state in the support of good moral outcomes.
 
Based on the above, then, I reiterate: there can be no right to commit mortal sin (and therefore no just claim against God or His Church, whatever the case may be with regard to civil authorities, to be free to commit mortal sin); YET the Church is wise to pursue her pastoral duties by education and persuasion in preference to coercion (and therefore wise to encourage and defend the “civil right” of religious liberty, which makes it possible for such education and persuasion to flourish).
.
Am I misunderstanding you when I conclude from this that the Church’s modern willingness to support religious liberty is in fact merely tactical, and were it to regain the power it once had, it would revert to support for restriction and oppression of religious liberty?
 
Am I misunderstanding you when I conclude from this that the Church’s modern willingness to support religious liberty is in fact merely tactical, and were it to regain the power it once had, it would revert to support for restriction and oppression of religious liberty?
Yes. That is not an accurate representation of what St. Thomas claims, and which I am elucidating. Bear in mind St. Thomas is pretty definitively not party to the “modern willingness” of the Church to do anything. Go read carefully the whole Answer from the Summa, above (objections and responses included). What St. Thomas claims, and what I affirm with him and am trying to help you understand accurately, is the difference between what each person can claim as a “right” in the light of revelation, and what is pastorally wise on the part of the Church. St. Thomas points out, quite correctly, that no one can have a “human right” to commit mortal sin; it’s incoherent even to speak of such a thing. [implication: coercion of the baptized, who are explicitly under the authority of the Church, would not be a “human rights violation” even if it were unwise] But at the same time, St. Thomas points out, quite correctly, that the Church is both right and wise to prefer education and persuasion as the means of exercising its pastoral role. [implication: regimes which accord a “civil right” to religious liberty are encouraged by the Church because in them this preference pays greater dividends]

The Church has an obligation which outweights the transitory obligations of States, and has real authority which outlasts the transitory power of nations. It is thus no surprise at all that the Church has throughout history converted to spiritual use both sacred and secular means, and will continue to do so. I can show you that it’s silly to think of the Church as just another political player, but I can’t remove the one-way arrow of God’s Creative and Redemptive grace, which does convert and transform, and which even in the lifetime of the Apostles aroused resistance as having “turned the world upside down.”
 
Yes. That is not an accurate representation of what St. Thomas claims, and which I am elucidating. Bear in mind St. Thomas is pretty definitively not party to the “modern willingness” of the Church to do anything. Go read carefully the whole Answer from the Summa, above (objections and responses included). What St. Thomas claims, and what I affirm with him and am trying to help you understand accurately, is the difference between what each person can claim as a “right” in the light of revelation, and what is pastorally wise on the part of the Church. St. Thomas points out, quite correctly, that no one can have a “human right” to commit mortal sin; it’s incoherent even to speak of such a thing. [implication: coercion of the baptized, who are explicitly under the authority of the Church, would not be a “human rights violation” even if it were unwise] But at the same time, St. Thomas points out, quite correctly, that the Church is both right and wise to prefer education and persuasion as the means of exercising its pastoral role. [implication: regimes which accord a “civil right” to religious liberty are encouraged by the Church because in them this preference pays greater dividends]

The Church has an obligation which outweights the transitory obligations of States, and has real authority which outlasts the transitory power of nations. It is thus no surprise at all that the Church has throughout history converted to spiritual use both sacred and secular means, and will continue to do so. I can show you that it’s silly to think of the Church as just another political player, but I can’t remove the one-way arrow of God’s Creative and Redemptive grace, which does convert and transform, and which even in the lifetime of the Apostles aroused resistance as having “turned the world upside down.”
I appreciate this elucidation. So let’s see if I have understood: ‘human rights’ are really the right to do good, and there can be no ‘human right’ to do bad. Where human propensity to do bad, as defined by scripture, tradition and the magisterium, can be curtailed by human law, it should be, but where this intervention by civil law can bring about greater evil, this can be ‘wisely’ rejected in favour of other means.
 
I appreciate this elucidation. So let’s see if I have understood: ‘human rights’ are really the right to do good, and there can be no ‘human right’ to do bad. Where human propensity to do bad, as defined by scripture, tradition and the magisterium, can be curtailed by human law, it should be, but where this intervention by civil law can bring about greater evil, this can be ‘wisely’ rejected in favour of other means.
I’m not sure that we can simplify the teaching that far, but I think this representation is nearer the mark. Let me try to revise your language into something I think is closer to St. Thomas’s answer:
Where -]human/-] the propensity **of the baptized **to do bad, as defined by scripture, tradition and the magisterium, can be curtailed by -]human law/-] punishments under ecclesiastical or civil law, it **generally may and often **should be, but **this is not always the best way to achieve this result; for one example, in cases **where this intervention by civil law can bring about greater evil, this can be ‘wisely’ rejected in favour of other means.
 
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