Glory to Jesus Christ!
Hello Jack,
…a 55 yr female Lutheran that claimed there is no significant difference in our beliefs (except “Catholics worship Mary and the Pope thing”)…she told me I obviously hadn’t read the ecumenical documents. My attempts to convince her that there is not a Real Presence in the Protestant Churches due to ministerial intent and lack of valid ordination fell on deaf ears.
I don’t think I will be of much help, but I think it might help if we put your challenge in perspective.
First of all, most RC parishes have a very “open” communion style, in fact in all my years I have never encountered otherwise. That means that anyone can walk up, if they know the procedure, and present themselves for communion. It is inherently open to abuse.
The fact that some mixed marriage individuals are taking communion is no evidence that it is OK. It also says a lot about what many RC laypersons are thinking of communion these days, because there are those who will present themselves for communion in Protestant churches. I don’t think this lady is exaggerating when she states that she knows people who do this, it is certainly a problem and she probably does. That doesn’t make it OK but it is a reality and that fact does tend to undermine an argument of exclusivity. After all, if it really IS the Body and Blood of Our Lord and Saviour and she believes it, what are you going to be able to do to prevent her from receiving at a Roman Catholic parish?
Secondly, I think you two are speaking passed each other because you are talking on different levels. Lutherans and Latin Catholics are generally not that far apart in what they think the Eucharist means, or what it should be (which is where she is coming from) but you are on a different level completely, manifesting a technical argument which relies on your belief that the only ministers of the Eucharist who are valid are under the authority of the Papacy, and Popes have declared in principle that Lutherans cannot confect this valid Eucharist. Clearly your first task is to demonstrate a convincing argument for Papal authority, not this other tack.
FWIW I have a few links here, which may be what she is referring to:
Lutheran - Roman Catholic
Agreement on Justification. (Not the Eucharist, but pretty darn important when it comes to Lutherans)
An
update on Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialog, and a longstanding
Statement on what the Eucharist means. This last has been around a long time and is important.
However, when reading these things it is always important to read the “small type” which is likely to be at the bottom of the page, it’s really a clarification of all the wordy stuff above. In this last case (the statement on the Eucharist) the words of the conclusion are interesting:
"There are still other questions that must be examined before we Catholic and Lutheran participants in these conversations would be prepared to assess our over-all agreements and disagreements on the doctrine of the sacrament of the altar. To mention two important omissions, we have not yet attempted to clarify our respective positions on the roles of the laity and the clergy, the “general” and “special” priesthood, in sacramental celebrations, nor have we discussed the pressing problem of the possibilities of intercommunion apart from full doctrinal and ecclesiastical fellowship. "
I think the point above is where you are coming from. And…
"On the two major issues which we have discussed at length, however, the progress has been immense. Despite all remaining differences in the ways we speak and think of the eucharistic sacrifice and our Lord’s presence in his supper, we are no longer able to regard ourselves as divided in the one holy catholic and apostolic faith on these two points. We therefore prayerfully ask our fellow Lutherans and Catholics to examine their consciences and root out many ways of thinking, speaking and acting, both individually and as churches, which have obscured their unity in Christ on these as on many other matters. "
I think the point here is where your interlocutor is coming from in her speaking with you.
Michael