Need help with Episcopalian resentment & giving things up for Lent

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Margaret33

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Although I grew up Catholic, there were several years spent away from the Church and admittedly there is lot I do not know and am trying to learn… When offered a cookie today and expressing I was abstaining from chocolate, a fellow coworker turned to me and balked "You know… that was NOT the Church’s original intention… " and stopped herself. She is the daughter of an Episcopal Minister who, knowing my faith, feels the obsessive/compulsive need to point out the various ways in which Catholicism and it’s traditions are “Wrong” and always manages to make me feel completely ignorant if I allow her to continue. I turned to her and said I didn’t have any desire to argue religion with her today and she stopped… but can someone enlighten me (forgive my ignorance please): #1: Is there something about the Episcopalian faith in particular that causes what can only be described as outright anger with regards to Catholicism? Or is it just her that gets so angry when she’s reminded I’m Catholic? and… 2) How can I best respond with criticisms of the Catholic tradition to give something up during lent? I really don’t have much desire to argue with her, but it’s getting to the point where I don’t have much a choice…
 
I thought Episcopalians also observed Lent? It sounds as though your friend has an issue with penance in general.

Anyhow, it’s optional to give something up for Lent, but it’s a very good thing to do. The reason we do it is to join our small sacrifices to the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross.

As to the “original intent,” how far back do you want to go? At one period of our history, chocolate wouldn’t have even been an issue - anything with butter, sugar, eggs, milk, meat, meat products, or yeast in it would have been completely forbidden throughout the entire season of Lent. I suppose they ate plain vegetables, unleavened bread, and fish - other than on Wednesdays and Fridays, which were days of total fasting, in some parts of the world.

At the time when Lent consisted only of the three days of the Triduum, they fasted completely from everything except water and medicine throughout the whole “season.” (The 40-day Lenten period is a fairly “new” development - within the last 1000 years or so.)

At no period of history has Lent ever not been about fasting, prayer, abstaining, and making personal sacrifices. Today, we have only two days of fasting and 8 days of abstinence from meat, with personal sacrifices being optional.
 
Margaret33 said:
Although I grew up Catholic, there were several years spent away from the Church and admittedly there is lot I do not know and am trying to learn… When offered a cookie today and expressing I was abstaining from chocolate, a fellow coworker turned to me and balked "You know… that was NOT the Church’s original intention… " and stopped herself. She is the daughter of an Episcopal Minister who, knowing my faith, feels the obsessive/compulsive need to point out the various ways in which Catholicism and it’s traditions are “Wrong” and always manages to make me feel completely ignorant if I allow her to continue. I turned to her and said I didn’t have any desire to argue religion with her today and she stopped… but can someone enlighten me (forgive my ignorance please): #1: Is there something about the Episcopalian faith in particular that causes what can only be described as outright anger with regards to Catholicism? Or is it just her that gets so angry when she’s reminded I’m Catholic? and… 2) How can I best respond with criticisms of the Catholic tradition to give something up during lent? I really don’t have much desire to argue with her, but it’s getting to the point where I don’t have much a choice…
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Growing up here, by the age of 14 I had instituted a “Sorry, I don’t discuss politics or religion in public” policy. If I had a dime for every well-meaning Baptist or non-denom Christian who has tried to “save” me from the clutches of the Whore of Babylon… But I have to say, never an Episcopalian! They are about the least angry people I’ve ever known! An Episcopalian service is basically a NO Mass with some latin thrown in and no Real Presence…exactly what “traditions” do they have that are not Catholic?

Me’s thinking…does someone in her family perhaps have “history” with the Church?

If you want to shut her down, I’d ask her where she thinks the Agnus Dei came from. Or just tell you you no longer discuss religion outside your family. Or maybe invite her to Mass if she’s never been, she’d be amazed at how comfortable she feels there!

You can admit that giving up chocolate is a small way to honor Christ’s sacrifice, but that you’re human and it’s the best you can manage this year. If we had to give up something “in kind” we’d all be in a terrible spot!
 
Thank you both. I do know the reason we do it, and I love how it reminds me why I am doing it when I consider each meal. I believe they observe Lent as well, I know they celebrate Ash Wednesday anyway. I’ve been to an Episcopalian Church for a few weddings and was really amazed at how similar the services were (don’t know if they call theirs mass). When she spoke of ‘The Church’ and it’s original intent it struck me how she used the words ‘The Church’ as if she too were Catholic, although she isn’t, she seems to at least recognize that it was one church at a point in history at least. I’m not comfortable with confrontation in any form, really. I have always believed personally that others are entitled to their faith and beliefs and that I was entitled to mine, and that arguing with one over their faith was counterproductive and a waste of time. But more and more as I get older I realize just how angry it makes me feel when people start these arguments, and it’s becoming apparent to me that I really do want to be able to defend the Catholic Church and my choice to be a part of it, I no longer want to walk away wishing I’d been prepared for the unexpected remarks, and feeling as if I’d let myself and God’s Church down by not standing up for it and what I believe. So I’m kind of at a reluctant crossroads here in my life I guess, between valuing peace at all costs and not believing one should even argue religion, and standing up for myself and putting people back in their place… and in the meantime, helping them realize our church is the only one that follows the word of God as it was meant to. This is just one comment out of many over these past few months… from several people where I work… and It may be God’s decision to lead me down this path, I don’t know, it certainly seems that way a lot lately… I feel like I’m being pulled down a road kicking and screaming but no matter how hard I tell myself I won’t let them bait me I have to just accept that it’s time for me to learn and partake in apologetics… and I don’t have a clue where to begin… Does this make any sense at all? Ironically enough, while on my county diocese website tonight, I learned that the entire state I live it is comprised of only 3% Catholics… Talk about being in a minority… I do wish I had looked that number up before moving here! lol…but what can you do 🙂 Is the best way to answer people with Scripture? Or do I use the contradictions within their own faith when they choose to point out those in mine?
 
I think your friend’s attitude probably has more to do with her own personal issues than it does with her affiliation. Why not just ask her when the mood is right in a non-confrontational way, Friend, I notice that when we discuss some of my Catholic beliefs and practices, when you disagree I sense a lot of anger. Am I reading your right? and see what she says
 
Hi,

I was raised episcopalian and I remember getting ashes on my head. I dont remember giving something up as a child.

I think she just has issues with the CC because I do not follow Lent or ash wednesday anymore simply because it is not a requirement from God, however, I think it is great if a person wants to do this. Especially if it brings them closer to Christ.👍

When people ask me why I dont give something up I tell them I sacrifice myself daily to Christ. For example, when I really want to make a snide comment here, I dont because it is not Christ-like-that is squelching my fleshly desire, picking up my cross and following Christ’s actions. And it hurts because it feels better to be mean sometimes.:o (Im sure you all know what Im talking about)

My catholic friends tell me it is not a requirement but a choice. Tell her you are choosing to sacrifice a fleshly desire of yours, after all Christ gave His life for us it is the least I can do to say thank you.👍 She probably wont know what to say.😉
 
ALLFORHIM said:
Hi,

I was raised episcopalian and I remember getting ashes on my head. I dont remember giving something up as a child.

I think she just has issues with the CC because I do not follow Lent or ash wednesday anymore simply because it is not a requirement from God, however, I think it is great if a person wants to do this. Especially if it brings them closer to Christ.👍

When people ask me why I dont give something up I tell them I sacrifice myself daily to Christ. For example, when I really want to make a snide comment here, I dont because it is not Christ-like-that is squelching my fleshly desire, picking up my cross and following Christ’s actions. And it hurts because it feels better to be mean sometimes.:o (Im sure you all know what Im talking about)

My catholic friends tell me it is not a requirement but a choice. Tell her you are choosing to sacrifice a fleshly desire of yours, after all Christ gave His life for us it is the least I can do to say thank you.👍 She probably wont know what to say.😉
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You’re absolutely right - that sort of self-discipline is something we should be striving for in season and out.

Don’t forget though, Jesus did all of that and ALSO fasted for 40 days in the wilderness, and doubtless at other times too. And he said there are some demons that need fasting as well as prayer to cast them out. Of course for us it’s not merely about the giving up of food or what have you, nor is it meant to be.

If I were the OP I’d probably ask the Episcopalian why she thought she knew better than I did about my own faith - and especially about my own Catholic church!
 
Personally,
I like the naive approach. When someone tries to explain my faith and what they perceive as the errors of it… I let them. Then when they are done, I very nicely tell them the truth.
 
Margaret33 said:
Thank you both. I do know the reason we do it, and I love how it reminds me why I am doing it when I consider each meal. I believe they observe Lent as well, I know they celebrate Ash Wednesday anyway. I’ve been to an Episcopalian Church for a few weddings and was really amazed at how similar the services were (don’t know if they call theirs mass). When she spoke of ‘The Church’ and it’s original intent it struck me how she used the words ‘The Church’ as if she too were Catholic, although she isn’t, she seems to at least recognize that it was one church at a point in history at least. I’m not comfortable with confrontation in any form, really. I have always believed personally that others are entitled to their faith and beliefs and that I was entitled to mine, and that arguing with one over their faith was counterproductive and a waste of time. But more and more as I get older I realize just how angry it makes me feel when people start these arguments, and it’s becoming apparent to me that I really do want to be able to defend the Catholic Church and my choice to be a part of it, I no longer want to walk away wishing I’d been prepared for the unexpected remarks, and feeling as if I’d let myself and God’s Church down by not standing up for it and what I believe. So I’m kind of at a reluctant crossroads here in my life I guess, between valuing peace at all costs and not believing one should even argue religion, and standing up for myself and putting people back in their place… and in the meantime, helping them realize our church is the only one that follows the word of God as it was meant to. This is just one comment out of many over these past few months… from several people where I work… and It may be God’s decision to lead me down this path, I don’t know, it certainly seems that way a lot lately… I feel like I’m being pulled down a road kicking and screaming but no matter how hard I tell myself I won’t let them bait me I have to just accept that it’s time for me to learn and partake in apologetics… and I don’t have a clue where to begin… Does this make any sense at all? Ironically enough, while on my county diocese website tonight, I learned that the entire state I live it is comprised of only 3% Catholics… Talk about being in a minority… I do wish I had looked that number up before moving here! lol…but what can you do 🙂 Is the best way to answer people with Scripture? Or do I use the contradictions within their own faith when they choose to point out those in mine?
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I understand the position you are in Margaret. My wife is in a similar one. Her sister defected from Rome many years ago and is constantly thumping her Bible at my wife. Also, my wife’s cousin, a cradle Catholic, has just jumped ship and “got saved” a one of those “big-box non-denominationals.” While not as vociferous as her sister, the cousin is confronting my wife on her beliefs. None of them approach me anymore, though, LOL, because I’ve pushed back, so to speak, and refuted their positions at every turn. I have left them absolutely speechless, no brag, just fact.

What you might want to consider is to learn about your faith at a deeper and historical level. These message boards are a great place to ask questions and get solid “Catholic Answers.” After a while, as you gain a better understanding of the Catholic Church, you will be more fully equipped to handle the objections raised by our separated brothers and sisters.

I was told many years ago by an old Jesuit priest friend that sometimes our Confirmation graces don’t kick in until we ask God to help us out and send His Holy Spirit to us so that we can defend Holy Mother Church against her adversries.

One final suggestion to you, if the “intimidation???” persists, it is no sign of defeat if you just calmly tell the person I do not have an answer for you right now but I WILL get one for you. Show that you really do mean to get an answer by taking the time to actually write down the person’s question and or statement and we can throw it around on these message boards. O.K?

Prayer is essential ! Pray daily and ask for guidance. You are going to be just fine. We are all behind you.
 
Thank you all for the wonderful advice & suggestions… they have helped me a lot 🙂 I will definitely tell her it is a choice and not a requirement (and why), ask her why she feels she knows my faith so much (I almost said it that day but I was too annoyed she was starting up again and had to shut her down until I could be more calm), and tell her or anyone else if I am unsure of an answer that I don’t know but will get it for them (I don’t know why I always think I have to know the answer as soon as it’s asked…! I guess I just don’t want to give them the self-satisfaction of my not having an answer) But in reality, I do know why I do things in my faith, it’s just that when I’m asked it always takes me by surprise and I’m suddenly speechless and all thoughts go out the window 🙂 And I do need to learn more about my faith and the Catholic Church’s history… you are good in reinforcing that I should, because it can only benefit. As far as prayer goes… I pray many times daily, it’s such a habit- that will never be an issue… If it were not for my relationship with the Almighty, Mary & the Saints… I would not still be here on this earth today… for they have gotten me through it all… and always do. Bless you all… truly 🙂
 
It is always dangerous speaking in generalities, but I’ll give it a try here. As you noted, the Episcopal Church does follow Lent and in some ways, especially among “high” or liturgical leaning Episcopal Churches, has many similarities with the Catholic Church. Many Episcopalians would give up something for Lent as part of a Lenten discipline. Also, most Episcopalians would also consider themselves to be members of the Church, even to the point of describing themselves as Catholic. Episcopalians recite the Nicene Creed and, as Anglicans, have historically considered themselves, along with the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, to be a branch of the Catholic Church. (This understanding is not accepted by the Catholic Church or, for that matter, the Orthodox Churches if I remember correctly). Moreover, I see that you are located in Charleston S.C. That is a hotbed of conservative Episcopalianism. All of this is a way of saying that, while exceptions will abound, it is very possible that your Episcopal friends in the Land of Shrimp and Grits have a decent understanding of the Catholic Church. Not that this would justify anyone, Episcopal or otherwise, to talk down to you about your faith…
 
Margaret33 said:
Although I grew up Catholic, there were several years spent away from the Church and admittedly there is lot I do not know and am trying to learn… When offered a cookie today and expressing I was abstaining from chocolate, a fellow coworker turned to me and balked "You know… that was NOT the Church’s original intention… " and stopped herself. She is the daughter of an Episcopal Minister who, knowing my faith, feels the obsessive/compulsive need to point out the various ways in which Catholicism and it’s traditions are “Wrong” and always manages to make me feel completely ignorant if I allow her to continue. I turned to her and said I didn’t have any desire to argue religion with her today and she stopped…
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Well, at least she stopped when you said you didn’t want to discuss it further. That wouldn’t deter a lot of folks.

It’s funny: if you had said you were on a diet she wouldn’t had said anything. If you claimed to be boycotting chocolate in solidarity with oppressed third-world cocoa farmers she would probably want to know more about it. Had you demanded to know if the cookies were made with “fair trade” chocolate she probably would have looked guilty and gone “Uh . . .”

But giving up chocolate for Lent . . . . quelle outrage!!!
 
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