Need help with Protestant mom

[NorthTexan88]

Howdy all, I need help explaining that the Church that Christ established (I.e. Catholic) can contain no error, even though there are fallible men in it.

I explained this to my mom but she came back saying that there was no perfect church and that they all had something wrong, including Catholic

I’ve ran out of ways to explain this, can someone help out with quotes or something like that?

 

[Jehannette]

Read the Catechism:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

The episcopal college and its head, the Pope

880 When Christ instituted the Twelve, "he constituted [them] in the form of a college or permanent assembly, at the head of which he placed Peter, chosen from among them."398 Just as "by the Lord’s institution, St. Peter and the rest of the apostles constitute a single apostolic college, so in like fashion the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles, are related with and united to one another."399

881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the “rock” of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock.400 "The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head."401 This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church’s very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered."403

883 “The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.” As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff."404

884 "The college of bishops exercises power over the universal Church in a solemn manner in an ecumenical council."405 But "there never is an ecumenical council which is not confirmed or at least recognized as such by Peter’s successor."406

885 "This college, in so far as it is composed of many members, is the expression of the variety and universality of the People of God; and of the unity of the flock of Christ, in so far as it is assembled under one head."407

886 "The individual bishops are the visible source and foundation of unity in their own particular Churches."408 As such, they "exercise their pastoral office over the portion of the People of God assigned to them,"409 assisted by priests and deacons. But, as a member of the episcopal college, each bishop shares in the concern for all the Churches.410 The bishops exercise this care first “by ruling well their own Churches as portions of the universal Church,” and so contributing "to the welfare of the whole Mystical Body, which, from another point of view, is a corporate body of Churches."411 They extend it especially to the poor,412 to those persecuted for the faith, as well as to missionaries who are working throughout the world.

887 Neighboring particular Churches who share the same culture form ecclesiastical provinces or larger groupings called patriarchates or regions.413 The bishops of these groupings can meet in synods or provincial councils. "In a like fashion, the episcopal conferences at the present time are in a position to contribute in many and fruitful ways to the concrete realization of the collegiate spirit."414

The teaching office

888 Bishops, with priests as co-workers, have as their first task “to preach the Gospel of God to all men,” in keeping with the Lord’s command.415 They are “heralds of faith, who draw new disciples to Christ; they are authentic teachers” of the apostolic faith "endowed with the authority of Christ."416

889 In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a “supernatural sense of faith” the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."417

890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. the exercise of this charism takes several forms:

891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals… the infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

 

[Woolybabe]

I have read a book called “If protestism is true”. It is a good book, I don’t know if your mum would read it, but you could, and it might help you to put your case to your mum. I hope this helps

 

[Facite]

Jesus created the Church perfect because he is perfect. Simply that.

 

[Gods_Peace]

Here’s a link to a tract that might help. God Bless.

catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility

 

[Bartolome_Casas]

Howdy all, I need help explaining that the Church that Christ established (I.e. Catholic) can contain no error, even though there are fallible men in it.

I explained this to my mom but she came back saying that there was no perfect church and that they all had something wrong, including Catholic

I’ve ran out of ways to explain this, can someone help out with quotes or something like that?

I don’t know any short way for you to prove this to your mom.

I have a feeling that historical and Biblical proofs aren’t what she needs anyway.

I’ve noticed that many Protestants have had bad experiences with the Catholic Church or with the way certain Catholics treated them, and so they generalize from those personal experiences to a view of the Church.

Rather than arguing with your mom, ask her to tell you what she thinks of the Catholic Church. Ask her to tell you more about her experiences with the Catholic Church, with priests, with nuns, with lay Catholics. Listen. Don’t argue. You don’t have to agree either. Just listen. Be curious. Keep listening, keep her talking. Eventually you might see what she dislikes about the Catholic Church, and what she likes about her Protestant church (if any). Perhaps in time you could show her that all the good things found in the Protestant churches (and there are many good things, as Blessed Pope John Paul II said many times) can also be found in the Catholic Church, plus many other good things.

In general, don’t argue with your mom. She is your elder. She created you, along with God. “Honor your father and mother.”

 

[MHT32]

If she says it cant be infallible because of fallible men, remind her that God guided the fallible men to infallibly write scripture. If fallible men guided by the Holy Spirit can write a letter infallibly, why cant they run a Church infallibly?

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

If she says it cant be infallible because of fallible men, remind her that God guided the fallible men to infallibly write scripture. If fallible men guided by the Holy Spirit can write a letter infallibly, why cant they run a Church infallibly?

LIKE button = Click

Also, two verse that may be helpful is the one that says “the gates of hell shall not prevail” over the Church & also the one that says “the pillar & foundation of truth” is the Church.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

If she says it cant be infallible because of fallible men, remind her that God guided the fallible men to infallibly write scripture. If fallible men guided by the Holy Spirit can write a letter infallibly, why cant they run a Church infallibly?

LIKE button = Click

Also, two verse that may be helpful is the one that says “the gates of hell shall not prevail” over the Church & also the one that says “the pillar & foundation of truth” is the Church.

 

[Mojoforyeshua]

I like to tell the following story

Let’s say that you have a disease, it is terminal and you will die without the cure. You hear that a company have a cure that has worked for 100% of the people who have tried it out 'til the end. Elated, you research this company to find out more about it. During your research, you stumble across that many of the CEO’s and even some of the presidents have been absolute scoundrels. Some of these men have been so bad that they, in their corruption, killed several people by injecting them with deadly diseases (against company policy). The question that you must now ask yourself is this, “Does the fact that this company has had some horrible people mean that the company does not have the cure for the disease?” No, of course not!

The Church is like the company. It has been given the cure for the disease of sin that will ultimately kill us, it is administered by the Sacraments and has some great success stories in the Saints. Remember, the best answer to the Church’s worst sinners are the stories of the Greatest Saints- sanctity is stronger than sin. While there have been some terrible human beings in the Church’s long history, they have always acted contrary to what the Church itself has always taught. These Judases to Christ do not invalidate the Truths that Jesus gave the Church 2000 years ago which the Catholic Church has faithfully taught without fail. Sure, there have been bad men over the years but Jesus’ promises are greater than the sinfulness of men.

 

[NorthTexan88]

Thanks for the help everyone!!!

I sat down with my mom earlier and we had a huge conversation about the Church, which this conversation has been one of many lately. I truly think that she will convert to the Church! The one thing I wish she would stop doing is to consult people at her church (church of Christ) about the Catholic Church

We found a common area, two of my best friends are starting RCIA in the Fall bc they are converting, so I’m almost certain that she is going to do it as well, I told her there was no pressure there.

I’ve refuted everything that she has to say, with a couple of exceptions that I didnt know off the top of my head…

CATHOLICS, this is why we have to be STRONG in our faith!! I truly belive this and leading by exaple and truth lead to conversion.

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

*“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)”
*
So, the gates of Hades have prevailed according to your mom?

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Howdy all, I need help explaining that the Church that Christ established (I.e. Catholic) can contain no error, even though there are fallible men in it.

I explained this to my mom but she came back saying that there was no perfect church and that they all had something wrong, including Catholic

I’ve ran out of ways to explain this, can someone help out with quotes or something like that?

If they all had something wrong, did the Apostles have something wrong in their teaching they got directly from Christ? If they did, why would any person believe what they had to say if it might not be true? If they didn’t, why wouldn’t Christ want that truth to be handed on throughout all generations since (I forget what verse this is) God “wants all men to come to knowledge of the truth”?

 

[jschutzm]

Howdy all, I need help explaining that the Church that Christ established (I.e. Catholic) can contain no error, even though there are fallible men in it.

I explained this to my mom but she came back saying that there was no perfect church and that they all had something wrong, including Catholic

I’ve ran out of ways to explain this, can someone help out with quotes or something like that?

So what line of reasoning HAVE you used?
If you ran out of ways… that begs the question - How many ways did you try? What have you tried?

Otherwise, we could all direct you blindly to resources that you are already aware of or have tried.

Personally… as a cradle Catholic, find the line of reasoning about the binding and loosing and the promise about the gates of hell pretty compelling. Not irrefutable…but “compelling” at least.
Important to note is that the source of the idea is that Christ gave Peter the power to bind and loose in Heaven… this is key. We know that lies or mistakes can’t exist in heaven, therefore if Peter bound something on Earth which is also bound in heaven…then it MUST represent and express actual TRUTH and can not contain errors.

Ultimately, the perfection or authority doesn’t come from any of the individuals themselves…but from the Holy Spirit.

To say that the Holy Spirit can not keep the Church from falling into apostacy or falsehood is to basically portray a PROFOUND distrust and lack of Faith in Christ himself, who made that promise.

How does she square THAT with her belief in Christ?

Again… I’m sure she can find wiggle room, perhaps saying that this promise died with the Apostles… or something.
BUT… it is still is a line of reasoning that you need to continue to bring home.

Sometimes, people will initially reject an idea, but God has a way of working on them… and they eventually come around.

Sounds like you’ve presented her with the information, that’s all you can do. It is in God’s hands now.

Keep prayin’ for her.

 

[pablope]

Howdy all, I need help explaining that the Church that Christ established (I.e. Catholic) can contain no error, even though there are fallible men in it.

I explained this to my mom but she came back saying that there was no perfect church and that they all had something wrong, including Catholic

I’ve ran out of ways to explain this, can someone help out with quotes or something like that?

What does she mean by perfect church? I am supposing she means perfect and sinless church goers.

Well…cite this verse from Luke 5…31 Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

This is what the Church does…call sinners to repentance and renewal of life…not to call the perfect and sinless.

The Church would not be fulfilling the mandate from Christ if they only administered to the perfect and sinless churchgoers.