Need help with purgetory arugument

  • Thread starter Thread starter catholictiger
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

catholictiger

Guest
about to get involved in an argument with someone on a message board about purgatory.

could you please help me with some biblical verses and church fathers qoutes. i have a few in mind but im sure some of you have better arguments then i may have

thanks
 
And remember that you are bringing a soul to the truth. You 're not trying to win an argument. See 1 Peter 3:15 before embarking on this task. Peace be with you … teachccd
 
I approached it from a purely “logical/reasonable” position with my Southern-Baptist father-in-law, shortly before he died. It really made him think and he died before ever answering me.

I gave him the example of a man who is on his way home from work. He gets a call from his office friends reminding him that today was the last day of work for Tom, a co-worker, and that they are all having a few drinks to say goodbye. He says he will be right over. Just then, his wife calls and asks when he will be home. Rather than say he is going to have a few drinks (work has kept him away from home, and the wife was hoping he would be home a little earlier than usual), he tells a “white lie” about having left something at the office and having to go back and get it. The man truly did not want to lie, but he did not want to start a fight and disappoint his wife either. And there was no element of having an affair, going to a strip club - just going tell a co-worker goodbye. The moment he hangs up with his wife, he is struck by an 18-wheeler and is killed instantly.

I asked my father in law: assuming this guy died with no MORTAL (and I begged his indulgence on this: for the sake of this hypothetical, agree some sins are far worse than others) sin on his soul, in what state would his soul exist: hell, purgatory, or heaven.

He agreed there could be no more than three (although he believed in only two), unless one was an atheist, and that was not part of the discussion. He agreed that in Revelation, St. John stated clearly that “nothing unclean” could enter heaven, and that reference was obviously about someone’s soul - not their body or clothes. And he finally agreed that the “lie” the man had told his wife was not really that serious, especially given the parameters of my hypothetical.

So - where did he go? My father-in-law said “heaven”. I asked how could that be. He said: “Because Jesus died for our sins and the man was forgiven”. I then pointed out: “How could the man be forgiven for having lied to his wife, considering he had been killed instantly before having a chance to even ask God to forgive him?”

Of course, my father-in-law grew silent, as he had not really thought of such a situation before. He again said that “Jesus died for our sins”, and I agreed, “no doubt”. But what happens to a person’s unclean soul that is not unclean with mortal sin, but nevertheless has unconfessed sin on it? He thought a bit, and said he would have to “get back with me on that”.

It was a good conversation to me because I believe I truly made him think.
 
This brings up a poignant reminder.

When we are praying for the souls of the dead, we should especially remember two groups of people.
  1. Priests - because they don’t have kids and descendants to pray for them.
  2. Protestant Converts - because their immediate family (who would still be Protestant) don’t tend to vote for the souls of the dead.
 
Salvatore123 said:
I approached it from a purely “logical/reasonable” position with my Southern-Baptist father-in-law, shortly before he died. It really made him think and he died before ever answering me.

I gave him the example of a man who is on his way home from work. He gets a call from his office friends reminding him that today was the last day of work for Tom, a co-worker, and that they are all having a few drinks to say goodbye. He says he will be right over. Just then, his wife calls and asks when he will be home. Rather than say he is going to have a few drinks (work has kept him away from home, and the wife was hoping he would be home a little earlier than usual), he tells a “white lie” about having left something at the office and having to go back and get it. The man truly did not want to lie, but he did not want to start a fight and disappoint his wife either. And there was no element of having an affair, going to a strip club - just going tell a co-worker goodbye. The moment he hangs up with his wife, he is struck by an 18-wheeler and is killed instantly.

I asked my father in law: assuming this guy died with no MORTAL (and I begged his indulgence on this: for the sake of this hypothetical, agree some sins are far worse than others) sin on his soul, in what state would his soul exist: hell, purgatory, or heaven.

He agreed there could be no more than three (although he believed in only two), unless one was an atheist, and that was not part of the discussion. He agreed that in Revelation, St. John stated clearly that “nothing unclean” could enter heaven, and that reference was obviously about someone’s soul - not their body or clothes. And he finally agreed that the “lie” the man had told his wife was not really that serious, especially given the parameters of my hypothetical.

So - where did he go? My father-in-law said “heaven”. I asked how could that be. He said: “Because Jesus died for our sins and the man was forgiven”. I then pointed out: “How could the man be forgiven for having lied to his wife, considering he had been killed instantly before having a chance to even ask God to forgive him?”

Of course, my father-in-law grew silent, as he had not really thought of such a situation before. He again said that “Jesus died for our sins”, and I agreed, “no doubt”. But what happens to a person’s unclean soul that is not unclean with mortal sin, but nevertheless has unconfessed sin on it? He thought a bit, and said he would have to “get back with me on that”.

It was a good conversation to me because I believe I truly made him think.
Click to expand...
Salvatore, purgatory is not about unforgiven venial sins but about the lingering effects of a lifetime of forgiven sin.
 
lutherlic said:
Salvatore, purgatory is not about unforgiven venial sins but about the lingering effects of a lifetime of forgiven sin.
Click to expand...
I believe it’s actually for both. The point of venial sins is that they are not mortal and they, too, must be purged from the soul the same way as the forgiven sins must be purged from the soul.

Fr. Serpa has given this example:

Suppose I am at my mother’s house and I pour a glass of orange juice and walk around and talk with her in the living room. In the living room I drop the glass of orange juice and the glass shatters. Well I can immediately turn to my mother and ask forgiveness for spilling on her carpet and shattering one of her glasses and she can receive me too and our relationship can be restored. However, I still have to scrub to get that orange juice stain out of the carpet.

-Prophecy
 
Lutherlic,

I realize the status of Purgatory is not limited to unforgiven venial sin - it is so that one’s soul is “perfectly cleaned” so that it may experience Heaven.

My point in using the example with my father-in-law was to get him to focus on what happens when one DOES die with unforgiven sin on one’s soul before one confesses.

That’s all.

It made him begin to think - and that was my first step.
 
Prophesy said:
I believe it’s actually for both. The point of venial sins is that they are not mortal and they, too, must be purged from the soul the same way as the forgiven sins must be purged from the soul.

Fr. Serpa has given this example:

Suppose I am at my mother’s house and I pour a glass of orange juice and walk around and talk with her in the living room. In the living room I drop the glass of orange juice and the glass shatters. Well I can immediately turn to my mother and ask forgiveness for spilling on her carpet and shattering one of her glasses and she can receive me too and our relationship can be restored. However, I still have to scrub to get that orange juice stain out of the carpet.

-Prophecy
Click to expand...
Salvatore123 said:
Lutherlic,

I realize the status of Purgatory is not limited to unforgiven venial sin - it is so that one’s soul is “perfectly cleaned” so that it may experience Heaven.

My point in using the example with my father-in-law was to get him to focus on what happens when one DOES die with unforgiven sin on one’s soul before one confesses.

That’s all.

It made him begin to think - and that was my first step.
Click to expand...
Thanks Prophesy and Salvatore for the correction.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top