Need help with the Trinity

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I have a few questions regarding God and the Trinity. I have always thought about the Trinity as God the Father (Creator), God the Word made Flesh (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (God acting in our hearts and lives). Three separate beings that encompass One God. But, this kind of thinking always makes me feel like a polytheist, and a bit uncomfortable. Below are few approaches I have been using to try to wrap my head around this Trinity issue so it makes sense and is still in line with Church teaching. If it is NOT in line with Church teaching, then I will discard it. Please let me know. There are also some questions that are involved, please try to answer them and correct me where I need correcting.

Before the Incarnation: Creator, Words of the Creator (when He speaks), and the Love of the Creator that dwells within people/moves them to repent and love. One God with three simultaneous ways of making himself know.

During Jesus’ Life: Creator, Jesus, and Holy Spirit: I cannot wrap my head around this one. Why is God praying to himself? Is it just to be obedient to His own laws/self? Has he truly separated Himself with Himself except for some supernatural bond? What is going on here? Jesus is now 100% Man (a creation) and 100% God (Creator). The Creator has become a creation of the Creator (Himself), thus humbling Himself and coming down to our level (without the Sin). Has God changed the nature of God and the relationship God has with each person of the Trinity? This cannot be so, since God cannot truly change the nature of Himself. Again, what is going on here?

Present- Eternity: Jesus in His Glorified Body as the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit all in one, but with the Holy Spirit being within Him AND all the people that are in Heaven/The New Earth. Someday God will give us our Glorified bodies and we will all dwell on a New Earth, just as it was meant to be in the beginning. God will dwell with us as Jesus, and His Holy Spirit will be with/in everyone. This is the only way I can think of it at the moment. If in Heaven God is separated in three, then it makes me feel like there is almost going to be a hierarchy of Gods there. The Father being the greatest, Son being the Second, and the Holy Spirit Being the lowest of God. I know this is wrong, but I can’t help but slip into this state of mind when thinking about God as three separate beings, especially after the creation in the new heavens and earth. Could it be that Jesus is the Trinity in one physical being?

Help me out here. This will help be visualize God better when I pray and such.
 
The Church teaches that there are three persons in one God, united in One but distinctly different.

I’ll try to find the exact CCC wording.

**The dogma of the Holy Trinity **

253 The Trinity is One.

We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”.83

The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215),

"Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another.

"God is one but not solitary."86

“Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87

They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another.

Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both.

While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89

Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90

"Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91
 
When I read through the explaination of the Trinity, I realize how humble Jesus was / is in HIs relationship to God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
 
St Augustine (and other Fathers) had the same thought/question as you, and here is a quote from St Augustine that I believe answers the question as best as can be done:
Yet we say three persons of the same essence, or three persons one essence; but we do not say three persons out of the same essence, as though therein essence were one thing, and person another, as we can say three statues out of the same gold; for there it is one thing to be gold, another to be statues. And when we say three men one nature, or three men of the same nature, they also can be called three men out of the same nature, since out of the same nature there can be also three other such men. But in that essence of the Trinity, in no way can any other person whatever exist out of the same essence. Further, in these things, one man is not as much as three men together; and two men are something more than one man: and in equal statues, three together amount to more of gold than each singly, and one amounts to less of gold than two. But in God it is not so; for the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit together is not a greater essence than the Father alone or the Son alone; but these three substances or persons, if they must be so called, together are equal to each singly: which the natural man does not comprehend. For he cannot think except under the conditions of bulk and space, either small or great, since phantasms or as it were images of bodies flit about in his mind. (On the Trinity)
This quote, to me, is at the heart of the Holy Mystery of the Trinity. The Divine Essence cannot be thought of or comprehended in terms of “bulk and space,” yet that’s how our human minds conceive things.

The human analogy breaks down at the point that the Divine Nature is not material and thus doesn’t exist or take up time/space as we do.
 
First of all, don’t listen to those who say the Trinity is impossible to understand, it is possible to understand, the Church Fathers used two very specific Greek terms (Οὐσία and ὑπόστᾰσις) to explain the Trinity perfectly.

Secondly, when I explain the Trinity to someone, I start with a very similar example. The very similar example is: 3 souls in 1 human body. Because each soul is in the same body, they are all the same man, yet the 3 souls aren’t each other.

Now to connect my example to the Trinity. Instead of thinking of 3 souls in 1 human body, think of 3 souls in the 1 divine Being that is God. These 3 souls, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, since they all share the same 1 divine Being that is God, they are all the same God, yet the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren’t each other.

This is essentially the Trinity. However, there is something else you need to understand. It is called the “hypostatic union”. As I just explained, think of 3 souls in the 1 divine Being that is God, therefore, they’re all 1 God yet not each other. Next, think of the 2nd soul, Jesus Christ, as also being in an actual human body.

Therefore, with both the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union in mind, think of:
  1. Trinity - 3 souls in the 1 Divine Being that is God.
  2. Hypostatic Union - the 2nd soul, Jesus Christ, is also in an actual human body.
Now, some people prefer to say “3 persons” instead of “3 souls”, because that is how Οὐσία is translated. I suggest you follow their lead and say “3 persons”. I too say “3 persons”, but I say “3 souls” to teach people.

Got it? I hope so, because now I’m going to tear apart your “3 approaches”.

Before the Incarnation: The idea that God is “one God with three simultaneous ways of making Himself known” is the hersy known as Sabellianism, also known as Modalism. They think of God as 1 person (1 soul) in 1 Divine Being that is God, while we Catholics think of God as 3 persons (3 souls) in 1 Divine Being that is God.

During Jesus’ life: God was not praying to Himself, the 2nd person (2nd soul) Jesus Christ, was praying to the 1st person (1st soul) the Father. These 2 persons, the Father and the Son, are both the same God but not each other. Also, when the 2nd person (2nd soul), Jesus Christ, became a man, He did not change the 1 Divine Being, He just took on a human body as well.

Present -Eternity: The Father and the Holy Spirit did NOT take on a human body, that is the heresy called Patripassionism. Only the 2nd person, Jesus Christ, took on a human body. And no, there is no heirarchy of the 3 persons, that is the heresy of Monarchianism. Each of the 3 persons share the same 1 divine Being that is God, so they all receive the same glory, laud, and honor.

I hope this helps. Also, in case you look into this further, when I said “1 divine Being”, you could also say “1 divine nature”, they mean the same thing.
 
Glorthac said:
First of all, don’t listen to those who say the Trinity is impossible to understand, it is possible to understand, the Church Fathers used two very specific Greek terms (Οὐσία and ὑπόστᾰσις) to explain the Trinity perfectly.

Secondly, when I explain the Trinity to someone, I start with a very similar example. The very similar example is: 3 souls in 1 human body. Because each soul is in the same body, they are all the same man, yet the 3 souls aren’t each other.

Now to connect my example to the Trinity. Instead of thinking of 3 souls in 1 human body, think of 3 souls in the 1 divine Being that is God. These 3 souls, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, since they all share the same 1 divine Being that is God, they are all the same God, yet the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit aren’t each other.

This is essentially the Trinity. However, there is something else you need to understand. It is called the “hypostatic union”. As I just explained, think of 3 souls in the 1 divine Being that is God, therefore, they’re all 1 God yet not each other. Next, think of the 2nd soul, Jesus Christ, as also being in an actual human body.

Therefore, with both the Trinity and the Hypostatic Union in mind, think of:
  1. Trinity - 3 souls in the 1 Divine Being that is God.
  2. Hypostatic Union - the 2nd soul, Jesus Christ, is also in an actual human body.
Now, some people prefer to say “3 persons” instead of “3 souls”, because that is how Οὐσία is translated. I suggest you follow their lead and say “3 persons”. I too say “3 persons”, but I say “3 souls” to teach people.

Got it? I hope so, because now I’m going to tear apart your “3 approaches”.

Before the Incarnation: The idea that God is “one God with three simultaneous ways of making Himself known” is the hersy known as Sabellianism, also known as Modalism. They think of God as 1 person (1 soul) in 1 Divine Being that is God, while we Catholics think of God as 3 persons (3 souls) in 1 Divine Being that is God.

During Jesus’ life: God was not praying to Himself, the 2nd person (2nd soul) Jesus Christ, was praying to the 1st person (1st soul) the Father. These 2 persons, the Father and the Son, are both the same God but not each other. Also, when the 2nd person (2nd soul), Jesus Christ, became a man, He did not change the 1 Divine Being, He just took on a human body as well.

Present -Eternity: The Father and the Holy Spirit did NOT take on a human body, that is the heresy called Patripassionism. Only the 2nd person, Jesus Christ, took on a human body. And no, there is no heirarchy of the 3 persons, that is the heresy of Monarchianism. Each of the 3 persons share the same 1 divine Being that is God, so they all receive the same glory, laud, and honor.

I hope this helps. Also, in case you look into this further, when I said “1 divine Being”, you could also say “1 divine nature”, they mean the same thing.
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Sigh, this puts me back at square one. Exactly the same understanding I had before you pointed out my heresy… Thank you though, I appreciate it. I want to be obedient to Church teachings, and obedience to Church is obedience to Christ.

Does anyone know of any in depth analysis of the relationship of the three divine persons in the Trinity that I could read? Especially the relationship Jesus now has with “Himself” now that He 100% God and 100% man.

Maybe I am thinking too deeply about something so simple…. I don’t know.
 
mcs7474 said:
Sigh, this puts me back at square one. Exactly the same understanding I had before you pointed out my heresy… Thank you though, I appreciate it. I want to be obedient to Church teachings, and obedience to Church is obedience to Christ.

Does anyone know of any in depth analysis of the relationship of the three divine persons in the Trinity that I could read? Especially the relationship Jesus now has with “Himself” now that He 100% God and 100% man.

Maybe I am thinking too deeply about something so simple…. I don’t know.
Click to expand...
A book often recommended here regarding the Most Holy Trinity is Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners; I think you will find it very helpful
 
The Trinity, quite simply, is what it is because God is love, and love cannot take place without a community. The Father from all eternity begets the Son, and the love between the two is so profound that from all eternity proceeds the person of the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Three persons in one Divine Essence.

-ACEGC
 
mcs7474 said:
Sigh, this puts me back at square one. Exactly the same understanding I had before you pointed out my heresy… Thank you though, I appreciate it. I want to be obedient to Church teachings, and obedience to Church is obedience to Christ.

Does anyone know of any in depth analysis of the relationship of the three divine persons in the Trinity that I could read? Especially the relationship Jesus now has with “Himself” now that He 100% God and 100% man.

Maybe I am thinking too deeply about something so simple…. I don’t know.
Click to expand...
I concur with FCEGM’s recommendation of Theology for Beginners by Frank Sheed.

Before we can begin to make sense of the definition of the Trinity, we must first be clear on the distinction between “nature” and “person.” Too often, it seems that people think of the persons of the Trinity as three different beings, but they are not. God is only one being, one entity, one nature.
 
mcs7474 said:
I have a few questions regarding God and the Trinity. I have always thought about the Trinity as God the Father (Creator), God the Word made Flesh (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit (God acting in our hearts and lives). Three separate beings that encompass One God. But, this kind of thinking always makes me feel like a polytheist, and a bit uncomfortable. Below are few approaches I have been using to try to wrap my head around this Trinity issue so it makes sense and is still in line with Church teaching. If it is NOT in line with Church teaching, then I will discard it. Please let me know. There are also some questions that are involved, please try to answer them and correct me where I need correcting.

Before the Incarnation: Creator, Words of the Creator (when He speaks), and the Love of the Creator that dwells within people/moves them to repent and love. One God with three simultaneous ways of making himself know.

During Jesus’ Life: Creator, Jesus, and Holy Spirit: I cannot wrap my head around this one. Why is God praying to himself? Is it just to be obedient to His own laws/self? Has he truly separated Himself with Himself except for some supernatural bond? What is going on here? Jesus is now 100% Man (a creation) and 100% God (Creator). The Creator has become a creation of the Creator (Himself), thus humbling Himself and coming down to our level (without the Sin). Has God changed the nature of God and the relationship God has with each person of the Trinity? This cannot be so, since God cannot truly change the nature of Himself. Again, what is going on here?

Present- Eternity: Jesus in His Glorified Body as the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit all in one, but with the Holy Spirit being within Him AND all the people that are in Heaven/The New Earth. Someday God will give us our Glorified bodies and we will all dwell on a New Earth, just as it was meant to be in the beginning. God will dwell with us as Jesus, and His Holy Spirit will be with/in everyone. This is the only way I can think of it at the moment. If in Heaven God is separated in three, then it makes me feel like there is almost going to be a hierarchy of Gods there. The Father being the greatest, Son being the Second, and the Holy Spirit Being the lowest of God. I know this is wrong, but I can’t help but slip into this state of mind when thinking about God as three separate beings, especially after the creation in the new heavens and earth. Could it be that Jesus is the Trinity in one physical being?

Help me out here. This will help be visualize God better when I pray and such.
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Maybe this will help, the link is to the Creed of Toledo: catholicvox.blogspot.com/2010/08/creed-of-toledo.html

The most comprehensive creed concerning the Trinity even more than the Athanasion Creed.
The most important dogmatic documents are the Creeds, or Symbols of Faith, and the decrees of the Popes and of General and Particular Councils:

I. Creeds.
  1. The simplest and oldest Creed, which is the foundation of all the others, is the Apostles’ Creed. There are, however, twelve different forms of it, which are given in Denzinger’s Enchiridion. See Dublin Review, Oct., 1888, July, 1889; and Le .Symbole des Apotres, by Batiffol and Vacant, in the Dict, de Théol. Catholique.
  2. The Nicene Creed, published by the Council of Nicaea (A.D. 325), it is now used in the Mass.
  3. The Athanasian Creed contains the doctrines so ably expounded and strenuously defended by him. It is aimed at the heresies of the fourth and fifth centuries, and dates back at least to the sixth or seventh century.
  4. The Creed of Toledo, published by the sixth council of Toledo (A.D. 675), further develops the Athanasian Creed, and is the most complete of the authentic expositions of the dogmas of the Blessed Trinity and Incarnation. As it closely follows St. Augustine’s teaching, it might almost be called “St. Augustine’s Creed” with even more reason than the preceding creed is called the creed of St. Athanathius.
 
The Holy Trinity is a Mystery, and as such we cannot fully understand it. What we understand of it is that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three personalities, yet one in being. To separate them into a heirarchy or three separate gods is incorrect, and so is to unite them into one personality with three modes of operation.

St. Patrick’s use of the shamrock to illustrate the principle is a good example to use. When we look at a shamrock, we see one leaf with three lobes. There are not three separate leaves, but the one. We cannot separate one from the others because then we do not have a shamrock any longer. The same goes for the Trinity. If we separate them, they are no longer a trinity, but three separate beings. A trinity is a unity of three. Nor can we combine the leaves into one. Again, we would not have a shamrock.

Now, each lobe of the leaf is one with the other two. Where one is, there also are the other two. Jesus tells Philip in John 14:9 that whoever has seen Jesus has seen the Father. He says in John 10:30 that he and the Father are one. The only way we could see the Father when looking at Jesus is if the two were one in being. Now, both the Father and Jesus are Lord. And in 2 Corinthians 3:17-18, we read that the Lord is the Holy Spirit also, and where the Holy Spirit is, there is freedom. Jesus tells us in John 8:31-32, that in following his word we are his disciples, and we will come to know the truth (and Jesus is the truth, according to John 14:6), and the truth will set us free. These are just a few examples of how interrelated the three are and how inseparable.

The perfect example of the revelation of the Trinity is at the baptism of Jesus… All three were there, because Jesus was there. They were revealed as having been there all along. And partly because of this we know that where one is so the other two are.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 talks about being transformed by gazing on the glory of the Lord. If you wish to visualize God when praying, look at a crucifix or an image of Christ, because when we see Jesus we see the Father and the Holy Spirit, wether or not we fully understand.

And I really hope I have not confused you any more.
 
absitinvidia said:
The Holy Trinity is a Mystery, and as such we cannot fully understand it. What we understand of it is that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three personalities, yet one in being. To separate them into a heirarchy or three separate gods is incorrect, and so is to unite them into one personality with three modes of operation.

St. Patrick’s use of the shamrock to illustrate the principle is a good example to use. When we look at a shamrock, we see one leaf with three lobes. There are not three separate leaves, but the one. We cannot separate one from the others because then we do not have a shamrock any longer. The same goes for the Trinity. If we separate them, they are no longer a trinity, but three separate beings. A trinity is a unity of three. Nor can we combine the leaves into one. Again, we would not have a shamrock.

Now, each lobe of the leaf is one with the other two. Where one is, there also are the other two. Jesus tells Philip in John 14:9 that whoever has seen Jesus has seen the Father. He says in John 10:30 that he and the Father are one. The only way we could see the Father when looking at Jesus is if the two were one in being. Now, both the Father and Jesus are Lord. And in 2 Corinthians 3:17-18, we read that the Lord is the Holy Spirit also, and where the Holy Spirit is, there is freedom. Jesus tells us in John 8:31-32, that in following his word we are his disciples, and we will come to know the truth (and Jesus is the truth, according to John 14:6), and the truth will set us free. These are just a few examples of how interrelated the three are and how inseparable.

The perfect example of the revelation of the Trinity is at the baptism of Jesus… All three were there, because Jesus was there. They were revealed as having been there all along. And partly because of this we know that where one is so the other two are.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 talks about being transformed by gazing on the glory of the Lord. If you wish to visualize God when praying, look at a crucifix or an image of Christ, because when we see Jesus we see the Father and the Holy Spirit, wether or not we fully understand.

And I really hope I have not confused you any more.
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While I agree with most of what you wrote I don’t think “personalities” can be substituted for “persons”. The Trinity is God’s inner life and the distinction of appropriation of persons and that they are related to each other; and in this, that they are to themselves.

People don’t realize how important a step the study of the Trinity was for a new world view. It gave rise to the right and dignity of the individual as a person.
 
chypmonk said:
While I agree with most of what you wrote I don’t think “personalities” can be substituted for “persons”. The Trinity is God’s inner life and the distinction of appropriation of persons and that they are related to each other; and in this, that they are to themselves.
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Yes, you are so right. They are persons, not “personalities.” That was a poor word choice on my part.:o
 
FCEGM said:
A book often recommended here regarding the Most Holy Trinity is Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners; I think you will find it very helpful
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I want to recommend that book too. It is a great read and helped me to understand the Trinity.
 
Thank you everyone for your replies. My understanding has not improved much further than what the catechism says, or from what others have already said. I think I will go ahead and purchase the recommended book, it seems to be highly recomended.

Thanks again.
 
hello mcs;

I believe relationships are at the heart of the Trinity, and I wonder if the spirit, and the ‘Trinity’ can be summed up through the greatest commandments.

When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, could these same commandments possibly describe God’s love for us?

Jesus loves God the Father with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength.
Jesus loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

God the Father loves God the Son with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength.
The Father loves each and every one of us as he loves himself.

Could the spirit be the power of God’s love; working through the perfection of the greatest commandments?

Is it possible that God’s purpose for each and every one of us is, to have this Trinitarian relationship with each other?

And just a short passage that links the Spirit and the second greatest commandment.

1 Samuel 18

1 After David had finished talking with Saul, Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself. 2 From that day Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his father’s house. 3And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself.
 
It is my first day and already find the answer I was looking for.
Thanks.
 
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