Need help with this comment on John

[CutlerB]

Dear community,

I’ve just got back from Bible Study. As I have mentioned in other posts, there is one guy in our group who is a mathematician from Cambridge, England who openly doesn’t believe in God. He seems to also hold the view that the Bible contains errors (obviously for his worldview) and that Jesus has been exaggerated by the writers of the books.

We were talking about John 8:39-59 today. Verses 44-46 read:

“You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?”

These verses brought about his comment which went something like this, and I asked him for a summary of his point, from his perspective: “The Jews didn’t choose to follow the devil as Jesus says they had. Verse 46 displays an odd view of truth. John leaves out the aspect of truth being convincing. The pharisees were simply not convinced, and Jesus was really talking some weird and confusing stuff here! We can’t blame them, but actually should forgive them, for how would we have handled this? All in all, I believe this conversation didn’t actually take place and John is wrong.”

I just could not respond. The way he talks shakes my faith every time and brings doubts about. The only refuge I have for that moment is: “There will be an answer to all of this.” Along with a few other comments he made, like many saints were mentally ill and that caused visions, the apostles were chosen as people who would wilfully follow any idea and die for it and so forth, this really shook me. It was the first time I felt the need to go to the next church and pray in the presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist. Sadly, it’s night time and all nearby Catholic churches were closed.

Can you help me answer his comment? What’s your take on the passages mentioned?

Thank you so much and God bless you all.

PS: I would be very grateful, if you would pray for me. I request them in all humility.

 

[onemangang]

I guess you could say that by following the grace you are given, you are following the will of the father as a child of God. So one could say God is their Father, and they are of God! The opposite holds true, if one is to reject grace, and sow iniquity, then they are following a lie, and the Devil is the father of all lies. So, wouldn’t that make those that were following a lie, a son of the devil. Wouldn’t then the devil be their father, or be OF the devil, so to speak?

Matthew 23:15 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you go round about the sea and the land to make one proselyte; and when he is made, you make him the child of hell twofold more than yourselves.

Christ was speaking to a group of Pharisses and scribes, who were Jew’s, but that doesn’t have to mean, therefore all Jews are of the Devil?

However, there is one true Religion, which is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic, all else are privations of truth, and who is the great deceiver? The Father of all lies?

Christ was speaking truth, sounds like the bible study leader is taking a modernist view, to appease the many, at the cost of truth. Then again, I am not the sole holder of truth either!

I’m sure throughout antiquity, one will have a hard time finding Church Fathers saying Christ was talking “Some weird and confusing stuff”

 

[Augustine3]

Dear community,

I’ve just got back from Bible Study. As I have mentioned in other posts, there is one guy in our group who is a mathematician from Cambridge, England who openly doesn’t believe in God. He seems to also hold the view that the Bible contains errors (obviously for his worldview) and that Jesus has been exaggerated by the writers of the books.

We were talking about John 8:39-59 today. Verses 44-46 read:

These verses brought about his comment which went something like this, and I asked him for a summary of his point, from his perspective: “The Jews didn’t choose to follow the devil as Jesus says they had. Verse 46 displays an odd view of truth. John leaves out the aspect of truth being convincing. The pharisees were simply not convinced, and Jesus was really talking some weird and confusing stuff here! We can’t blame them, but actually should forgive them, for how would we have handled this? All in all, I believe this conversation didn’t actually take place and John is wrong.”

I just could not respond. The way he talks shakes my faith every time and brings doubts about. The only refuge I have for that moment is: “There will be an answer to all of this.” Along with a few other comments he made, like many saints were mentally ill and that caused visions, the apostles were chosen as people who would wilfully follow any idea and die for it and so forth, this really shook me. It was the first time I felt the need to go to the next church and pray in the presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist. Sadly, it’s night time and all nearby Catholic churches were closed.

Can you help me answer his comment? What’s your take on the passages mentioned?

Thank you so much and God bless you all.

PS: I would be very grateful, if you would pray for me. I request them in all humility.

Proof please…is there evidence to support this person’s claim? If not, then his subjective opinion is untrustworthy and irrelevant…

I will offer my next rosary for you. God bless you!

Your brother in Christ,

 

[airjohn]

This guy has his blinders on,its a matter of the heart, and no amount of convincing argument is going to change his opinion at this point. Only the love of God can change a heart.Paul had his blinders on until he met the risen Lord. There are signs and wonder all around us and have been for 2000 years but with out grace one can not see. Our Lord spoke of this when he said they have eyes but they do not see unless there heart be converted.Give us a sign they said Jesus replied you would not believe even if you saw one raised from the dead. Keep praying for the scales to come off,that he may see and experience true love in Christ. Im going through the very same thing with my adult son who is deciding to be an atheist. Very troubling, butI I am learning to trust God more through this experience. His disciples asked, who then can be saved,Jesus replied, with man it is impossible but with God all things are possible. Keep on believing!!! God is love and love never fails.

Your brother in Christ,
John

 

[CutlerB]

I guess you could say that by following the grace you are given, you are following the will of the father as a child of God. So one could say God is their Father, and they are of God! The opposite holds true, if one is to reject grace, and sow iniquity, then they are following a lie, and the Devil is the father of all lies. So, wouldn’t that make those that were following a lie, a son of the devil. Wouldn’t then the devil be their father, or be OF the devil, so to speak?

I agree. His view is: “That’s a bad way to argue with people. Imagine I told you ‘You’re a son of the devil if you disagree!’ How would that sound to you? Weird, right?”

Matthew 23:15 Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you go round about the sea and the land to make one proselyte; and when he is made, you make him the child of hell twofold more than yourselves.

Christ was speaking to a group of Pharisses and scribes, who were Jew’s, but that doesn’t have to mean, therefore all Jews are of the Devil?

Are these the same Jews as in John 8? In John it says it is the same Jews that had believed in him before and then hurl stones at him.

However, there is one true Religion, which is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic, all else are privations of truth, and who is the great deceiver? The Father of all lies?

I agree again. But telling him that won’t get me far, but only into some discussion about how limited I must be in thinking that.

Christ was speaking truth, sounds like the bible study leader is taking a modernist view, to appease the many, at the cost of truth. Then again, I am not the sole holder of truth either!

That’s a point I brought up: He’s leaving out that Christ was absolutely aware of what was in them. Their hearts and everything. It may also be hyperbole. Yet that is something he will not accept, but instead jumps back to: Bad way of talking to people.

I’m sure throughout antiquity, one will have a hard time finding Church Fathers saying Christ was talking “Some weird and confusing stuff”

I don’t think one would find any What the priest and he meant was: “Can we really blame the Jews for not knowing? They weren’t convinced, for what had Jesus done that would prove to them that He was God? We shouldn’t be too hard on them, considering how we would have felt in that situation. Being told you are of the devil if you don’t agree.”

Things they say are confusing for the Jews are these:

John 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.”

John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.”

Is Jesus saying the Jews wilfully follow the devil to do his desires?

John 8:45-46 “But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?”

The point here being, that truth may be truth, but that doesn’t mean it’s convincing.

Proof please…is there evidence to support this person’s claim? If not, then his subjective opinion is untrustworthy and irrelevant…

I will offer my next rosary for you. God bless you!

Your brother in Christ,

I thought that as well. However, it does seem somewhat credible the way he said it. Thank you very much for your prayers.

This guy has his blinders on,its a matter of the heart, and no amount of convincing argument is going to change his opinion at this point. Only the love of God can change a heart.Paul had his blinders on until he met the risen Lord. There are signs and wonder all around us and have been for 2000 years but with out grace one can not see. Our Lord spoke of this when he said they have eyes but they do not see unless there heart be converted.Give us a sign they said Jesus replied you would not believe even if you saw one raised from the dead. Keep praying for the scales to come off,that he may see and experience true love in Christ. Im going through the very same thing with my adult son who is deciding to be an atheist. Very troubling, butI I am learning to trust God more through this experience. His disciples asked, who then can be saved,Jesus replied, with man it is impossible but with God all things are possible. Keep on believing!!! God is love and love never fails.

Yes he has, and he is trying to slip them on to us as well. I don’t understand why he comes to church or to this study, if he doesn’t believe God exists. If it’s for the purpose of sabotaging and attacking people faith, he could just as well stay away, if it were mine to grant. As that seems to be his goal, I do not want to let him shake people’s faith and therefore always try to respond. I’ve never argued with people like him before, but only with people who believe the Bible is the word of God and inerrant. If he doesn’t grant that premise, I need to rethink and that’s difficult to do on the spot.

I hope your son finds his way home. All the best.

Pax vobiscum.

 

[Regina_Love]

awe what a humble man he is. He knows better than God how to talk to people. Jesus was pointing out that they had conceived evil in their hearts, and were not open to the truth! Unless their heart changed they remain unwilling to hear or believe the truth! just like this man at your Bible Study. You cannot reason some one into faith. He believes himself so much more intelligent then the rest of you! He has rendered himself incapable of learning. God said become like little children, because they KNOW that they need to learn from others. ** We must be willing to learn from God**.

I would challenge him, and ask why he is there? I would ask him point blank if he is just there to argue & stir things up? Is he just there to cause people to doubt, for entertainment? Is he too fearful of believing, because it would turn his world up side down? (many intelligent people think they need to be in control) Is his life soooo empty he has nothing better to do?

 

[Jim_Baur]

For the fun of it, ask Mr. Math why he believes in math.

Where is math’s existence?

It is not a physical entity.

He can’t weigh, measure, feel, taste, see, hear, touch, or point to it.

Math is not a liquid, solid or gas.

Math is not living.

So physics, biology and chemistry can not locate it or investigate it.

If they cannot locate it. Then math does not exist.

For even more fun, Why do the those three physical sciences use math? They only believe in the real world. The three sciences will not acknowledge those things that they cannot weigh and touch. They cannot weigh math. They should not even use it. But then their sciences disappear.

Serious, we can discern a maker of this world. We as Jews and Christian believe Abraham and Moses knew God. I believe in God the Father and Jesus Christ. That is fundamental and important.

Concerning the passage: our light is darkness to him.

 

[Jim_Baur]

Dear community,

We were talking about John 8:39-59 today. Verses 44-46 read:

These verses brought about his comment which went something like this, and I asked him for a summary of his point, from his perspective: “The Jews didn’t choose to follow the devil as Jesus says they had. Verse 46 displays an odd view of truth. John leaves out the aspect of truth being convincing. The pharisees were simply not convinced, and Jesus was really talking some weird and confusing stuff here! We can’t blame them, but actually should forgive them, for how would we have handled this? All in all, I believe this conversation didn’t actually take place and John is wrong.”

I just could not respond. The way he talks shakes my faith every time and brings doubts about. The only refuge I have for that moment is: “There will be an answer to all of this.” Along with a few other comments he made, like many saints were mentally ill and that caused visions, the apostles were chosen as people who would wilfully follow any idea and die for it and so forth, this really shook me. It was the first time I felt the need to go to the next church and pray in the presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist. Sadly, it’s night time and all nearby Catholic churches were closed.

First, he has no scientific knowledge of those saints. NONE! His opinion is an opinion.

We hear about love and want it.

We hear about sobriety and want it.

We hear about chastity and want it.

Other hear about love, sobriety, chastity and think it is ugly.

God is love.

If he cannot see God is love. That does not stop us from wanting His love and sharing His love.

If he does not believe in love–LOVE HIM ANYWAY!

What do you really believe–love or not?

You believe and hope in love.

That is what is!

 

[Mintaka]

First off, don’t let this guy shake your faith. He literally doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
He is so ignorant that he doesn’t know how ignorant he is, but his “passionate conviction” (ie, pigheadedness) and intellectual arrogance apparently allows him to take control of your Bible study group. This is apparently why he wanted to come (although God may have other ideas).

What he’s doing is viewing every single passage in terms of himself and his worldview; he doesn’t apparently have enough knowledge of other people, history, or imagination to enter into the mindset of the people writing the Gospels.

So basically, he doesn’t know how to read. Somebody has to teach him.

Now, even today, rabbis call other Jewish people and other rabbis out for ideas and actions they don’t think go along with Scripture, tradition, and God’s will. And calling other people “sons of the devil” at those times is a really strong heads-up, just as saying that someone is acting like a “child of God” would be a heads-up to us that someone is acting good. (In Israel, saying someone was acting like a “son of God” would be saying they were acting like a great ruler who served God or an angel or the Messiah.) In case nobody has noticed, Hebrew and Aramaic are full of strong expressions. They aren’t mealymouthed wimpy languages. Jesus uses all sorts of vivid expressions, so that people would remember His words and be stung to act upon them.

Sort of like your hyperbolic buddy Mr English, in fact.

Jesus was a Jew. A big chunk of His mission was to save the Jews. He couldn’t be saying anything anti-Semitic, so obviously Mr English is not reading correctly. He couldn’t be saying they were hopelessly evil, because He was arguing with them to change their ways. (You’ll notice that when Jesus does argue with Satan, he doesn’t spend any time telling Satan to change his ways and do better.)

You are going to have to be very patient and very relentless, if you are going to teach this guy to be able to read and understand. But as the Ethiopian eunuch pointed out, nobody can learn to interpret the Scriptures without a teacher.

 

[onemangang]

The Gospel talks about Jesus having knowledge of people thoughts, but math guy rejects that, then math guy turns around and claims to have knowledge of their thoughts, by his statement?

Psalm 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

Math guy must use his sensory perception in order to determine what he THINKS is true!

What makes math guy’s sensory perception better that yours, mine, or Christ?

I would simply tell math guy he is of the devil, a wicked deceiver. If he is offended, oh well, maybe he will leave! Sounds like his intent is to justify his unbelief before men, as to say unto God see, I had real reasons! Probably trying to drag a few people with him as well!

How does he know his thinking is right on that passage?

What did he appeal to, in order to make that judgment, ECF’s, Logic, gramatical nuances?

I would be curious to see how he can explain that his sensory perception will always produce right thinking!

 

[CutlerB]

First off, don’t let this guy shake your faith. He literally doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

You are going to have to be very patient and very relentless, if you are going to teach this guy to be able to read and understand. But as the Ethiopian eunuch pointed out, nobody can learn to interpret the Scriptures without a teacher.

My faith is unfortunately quite easily shaken, but doesn’t crash down. It wobbles and then settles again, often growing new roots. Like a tree. In that moment, I will have doubts, think through all I can remember having read, trying to find some fallacy in his reasoning, but but most of the time it runs on too quickly.

I think he will not believe. His way is quite limited, and loves literalist readings. He will not have himself taught. One can only pray for him.

The Gospel talks about Jesus having knowledge of people thoughts, but math guy rejects that, then math guy turns around and claims to have knowledge of their thoughts, by his statement?

Psalm 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

What did he appeal to, in order to make that judgment, ECF’s, Logic, gramatical nuances?

Love “math guy” I replied to the group that Jesus knew their hearts and thought, and therefore He certainly can say they are sons of the devil. And yes, math guy makes himself the judge of truth here. After all, he says things like: “John has him say”, implying he thinks John invents this. And in the end he said: “John is wrong.” When he said that, I simply thought: “I’d rather trust the people who have studied theology, who are at the source, than in someone who thinks he knows what really went on. We haven’t had 2000 years of the most brilliant minds for no reason. If there was a problem, they would have found it.”

Math guy didn’t appeal to anything, except some logic. But that doesn’t make his interpretation correct.

 

[57Bill]

(These verses brought about his comment which went something like this, and I asked him for a summary of his point, from his perspective: “The Jews didn’t choose to follow the devil as Jesus says they had. Verse 46 displays an odd view of truth. John leaves out the aspect of truth being convincing. The pharisees were simply not convinced, and Jesus was really talking some weird and confusing stuff here! We can’t blame them, but actually should forgive them, for how would we have handled this? All in all, I believe this conversation didn’t actually take place and John is wrong.”)

The big theme in this part of John’s Gospel IMO is the Jews unbelief that Jesus is the Son of God. Weird and confusing…that’s putting it lightly…in their mind especially the Pharisees, it was blasphemy to the 'nth degree.

To say that one should cut them some slack is very very ignorant of the message from John.

 

[onemangang]

Math guy can’t appeal even to logic, without filtering the perceived logic, through his own sensory perception to make any proclimation. For the materialist that ascribes in an unguided evolution, the likely hood of evolution producing right thinking, is not necessary, and often less likely, than simply fooling one inorder to further the species! If its to further the species, then it is more likely to produce what is benificial to furthering the species, rather than right thinking.

I don’t want to discuss evolution, but I think if the math guy doesn’t believe in God, then what is the ground of him asserting “truth claims” in other words, math guy hasn’t got a logically consistant epistemology to say he is right, while others are wrong! All math guy can say is I THINK according to my personal sensory perception that Jesus meant…!

You can see more info on the short falls of the materialist by reading Alvin Plantinga.

 

[CutlerB]

Math guy can’t appeal even to logic, without filtering the perceived logic, through his own sensory perception to make any proclimation. For the materialist that ascribes in an unguided evolution, the likely hood of evolution producing right thinking, is not necessary, and often less likely, than simply fooling one inorder to further the species! If its to further the species, then it is more likely to produce what is benificial to furthering the species, rather than right thinking.

I don’t want to discuss evolution, but I think if the math guy doesn’t believe in God, then what is the ground of him asserting “truth claims” in other words, math guy hasn’t got a logically consistant epistemology to say he is right, while others are wrong! All math guy can say is I THINK according to my personal sensory perception that Jesus meant…!

You can see more info on the short falls of the materialist by reading Alvin Plantinga.

I’ve actually just bought Plantinga’s “Where the problem really lies — Science, Religion and Naturalism”.

 

[PJM]

=CutlerB;

SCARED SCRIPTURE THREAD:

Need help with this comment on John

Dear community,

I’ve just got back from Bible Study. As I have mentioned in other posts, there is one guy in our group who is a mathematician from Cambridge, England who openly doesn’t believe in God. He seems to also hold the view that the Bible contains errors (obviously for his worldview) and that Jesus has been exaggerated by the writers of the books.

[1]We were talking about John 8:39-59 today. Verses 44-46 read:

Quote:
[2]“You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. **Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?” **

[3]These verses brought about his comment which went something like this, and I asked him for a summary of his point, from his perspective: "The Jews didn’t choose to follow the devil as Jesus says they had.

There actions belie this position!

[4]Verse 46 displays an odd view of truth. John leaves out the aspect of truth being convincing. The pharisees were simply not convinced, and Jesus was really talking some weird and confusing stuff here!

Miracles that they personally witnessed and others saw was the evidence they choos to ignore prove their guilt God IS Perfect! IMPOSSIBLE for Him to sin!

[5]We can’t blame them, but actually should forgive them, for how would we have handled this? All in all, I believe this conversation didn’t actually take place and John is wrong."

***AND YOUR PROOF? WHY then is it in the Bible?

He demands proof from us but gives NONE of his strongly opinioned positions***/B]


[6]I just could not respond. The way he talks shakes my faith every time and brings doubts about. The only refuge I have for that moment is: “There will be an answer to all of this.”

***Your request is to broad to respond in great detail.

As for his lack of belief in God. Ask how he explains this***. Ref. Gen. 1:26-27

***The Universe contains BILLIONS of “created things”; yet ONLY ONE, only humanity can love, hate and rationalize. WHY? Answer is in Isa. 43: 7 and 21

To be able to love or hate, or rationalize requires the following:
A mind, intellect, and FREEWILL which all are permanently attached to our SOULS. [For this discussion, that which animates all life forms.]** Each is a “spiritual-thing.”*****

The Triune Trinity /God, is “Spirit and Life” John 4:24, and each of the attributes needed are “Spiritual things” as is God. Ask him to quantify his FREEWIIL: size, shape, color and weight. Can’t be done yet its reality can’t be logically denied. SO WHERE DO THEY COME FROM?

Next ask him the First cause of the “Natural Laws of Nature?”

John 8:[36]-59
I know that you are the children of Abraham: but you seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you

*THERE IS ONLY ONE INFALLIBLE RULE FOR RIGHT BIBLE UNDERSTANDING

NEVER-EVER CAN, MAY OR DOES ONE PASSAGE VOID, INVALIDATE OR OVERRIDE ANOTHER. THIS WOULD MAKE THE BIBLE WORTHLESS. *

If as he claims they “are not of the devil” why then are they intent on killing him? Jesus [a historical figure] challenges them to PROVE that he has even one time sinned!

Jesus therefore said to them: If God were your Father, you would indeed love me. Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word. You are of your father the devil, He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. But if I say the truth, you believe me not”

[46] Which of you shall convince me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do you not believe me?

MEANS “I’m SINLESS” no one can give evidence otherwise!”

John the Baptist affirms Christ position of the Pharisees: Matthew 3:7 And seeing many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them: Ye brood of vipers, who hath shewed you to flee from the wrath to come?

Matthew 7:29 “For he was teaching them as one having power, and not as the scribes and Pharisees”

Matthew 12:14 And the Pharisees going out made a consultation against him, how they might destroy [KILL] him

**Matthew 16:12 **Then they understood that he said not that they should beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees

Good exist for ONLY one reason: Because God is good

Evil also exist for one reason: to permit man to freely choose to love or hate God

Evidence of Christ / God and His Goodness. The necessary evidence is It’s impossible to be “a devil” as charged in found in the multitude of Miracles He performed. And YES, Satan too performed miracles. Christ to accomplish a GOOD; Satan to persuade others of his powers.

John 15: 13-15 “Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you. I will not call you servants: for the servant knows not what his lord doth. But I have called you friends: because all things whatsoever I have heard of my Father, I have made known to you”

Matthew 27:31 And after they had mocked him, they took off the cloak from him, and put on him his own garments, and led him away to crucify him.

Mark 15:14 And Pilate saith to them: Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more: Crucify him. … **Luke 23:4 **And Pilate said to the chief priests and to the multitudes: I find no cause in this man

Hope this helps you,

God Bless and your in my prayers,

pat/PJM

 

[Jim_Baur]

I do not know who said this, but do not let this individual shake your faith.

Do not let him shake your love of and for God.