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NolePaul2009
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How do I respond? Help. They have me stumped…
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CarmeliteGirl25
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Hi, Paul. I believe I know you from Emmaus. 
What exactly are their arguments as far as it being fiction?
What exactly are their arguments as far as it being fiction?
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Lmora
Guest
Hi, I have had my share of arugments with Athiests, too. I went on a website that said 2012,because I wanted to know what everyone was saying about the end times and the Apocalypse. There on that website, I met all Athiests! One after the other. I finally found a website that gave answers like how to answer an Athiest. I deleted the site though, after I deleted the “2012” website, but if you do a web search, I am sure you will find it. I am sorry, I forgot the name of it, I do not have an answer to the Bible question, but I do have an answer for them on the belief in God.
I threw some science at them for their little scientific minds to think about, When I asked one of them how he got here he said: “Hydrogen,” I said:
" With the sun and all those stars in the Cosmos, the universe takes up a lot of Hydrogen and Helium. And Hydrogen and Helium need to be replenished. In order for the sun, moon and stars to exist, they use Hydrogen and Helium. Now, there are many stars in the sky. How does the Hydrogen and Helium, keep on replenishing itself, if there is no God?"
He did not know how to answer me, but he kept on going on about other things about his disbelief. I then asked him if he wanted me to send him a “Free Crucifix.” I laughed, because he did not answer me again and the devil cannot stand the sight of a Crucifix. I do not know if any of this is helpful, but I want to wish you the best of luck in finding your answer. And do check out the: “How to answer an Athiest.” It is out there on the web.I just wish I did not delete it. Try Wikipedia, too. Good Luck!
“In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth.” (Genesis-1-1)
Lmora
I threw some science at them for their little scientific minds to think about, When I asked one of them how he got here he said: “Hydrogen,” I said:
" With the sun and all those stars in the Cosmos, the universe takes up a lot of Hydrogen and Helium. And Hydrogen and Helium need to be replenished. In order for the sun, moon and stars to exist, they use Hydrogen and Helium. Now, there are many stars in the sky. How does the Hydrogen and Helium, keep on replenishing itself, if there is no God?"
He did not know how to answer me, but he kept on going on about other things about his disbelief. I then asked him if he wanted me to send him a “Free Crucifix.” I laughed, because he did not answer me again and the devil cannot stand the sight of a Crucifix. I do not know if any of this is helpful, but I want to wish you the best of luck in finding your answer. And do check out the: “How to answer an Athiest.” It is out there on the web.I just wish I did not delete it. Try Wikipedia, too. Good Luck!
“In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth.” (Genesis-1-1)
Lmora
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JeanneH
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I know this is not much but try turning the question on them. Have them PROVE the Bible is fiction.
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Newbie2
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Exactly.
Historians accept as fact other ancient historical writings for which as few as a single copy exists. Yet, when discussing the Bible, the same standard do not seem to apply.
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cerad
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And just to show them how it is done, start by PROVING to them that Zeus is fiction.
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cerad
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Neither Hydrogen nor Helium are replenished.
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lumenorientale
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Well, that is apples and oranges, because even the most atheistic scholars agree that Jesus existed. Not only is the Bible used to get that information, but so are the writings Josephus and Tacitus. We pretty much all know he walked in ancient Palestine. However, it’s who men say that he is, that remains the question.
There is no such proof that Zeus existed–the Greeks wrote about him, but where are those who were “outside” the religion making commentary on the existence of Zeus?
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andrewagill
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Sort of. Helium can be replenished in two ways: by the fusion of hydrogen and by alpha decay. In theory, I suppose proton emission could generate hydrogen atoms, but proton emission is not a naturally occurring event.
So yes, the universe is running out of hydrogen.
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cerad
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Actually there are quite a few scholars (including some non-atheistic ones) who doubt that the Jesus described in the bible ever existed. And please, Josephus only mentioned Christians in the most fleeting of passages and even that is suspected to be a forgery.
But I do agree that Zeus was not a good counter example . Instead I would suggest that one could start by proving that the Iliad is a work of fiction. After all we know that Greeks and Trojans and Troy were all real.
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Mark77
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Ask them "What if it is true?"
If it’s fiction, then we have lost nothing trying to live a life of selfless love as Jesus taught us!
If it’s fiction, why do we have a conscience? If we are random pieces of dust with no meaning or purpose, why do we feel guilt when we hurt others?
i would argue that any rational, sane, honest person, on their deathbed, will be a lot happier having followed Jesus’ example of Love, even if it is fiction, than those who lived for the moment, as unsatisfying and empty as that always is, and only lived for themselves.
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!
mark
If it’s fiction, then we have lost nothing trying to live a life of selfless love as Jesus taught us!
If it’s fiction, why do we have a conscience? If we are random pieces of dust with no meaning or purpose, why do we feel guilt when we hurt others?
i would argue that any rational, sane, honest person, on their deathbed, will be a lot happier having followed Jesus’ example of Love, even if it is fiction, than those who lived for the moment, as unsatisfying and empty as that always is, and only lived for themselves.
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!
mark
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lumenorientale
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I’m not talking about those passages of Josephus that are known forgeries (or those that are embellished). We know that Josephus would not have said the “Jesus was the Christ.” As I recall, there were passages translated by an Arabic Christian monk that have been considered to be the best translations, in which Josephus mentions Jesus as “a wise man.” He was mentioned directly.
(From what I’ve read, most atheistic scholars believe that a Jesus more or less similar to the one mentioned in the Bible did exist. I’m not saying ALL atheistic scholars believe that, just saying that the majority who study Jesus do. They just believe he is, and has remained, deceased.)
Interesting analogy, the thought of the Iliad…there is, of course, archaeological and written evidence that there was a Trojan War. The cause of which, though unknown, probably involved the same sort of megalomania seen in most of the world through all time–not a beautiful woman. But, where are the contemporaries of the time saying the Helen of Troy did exist, and was indeed the cause of the Trojan War?
Nice to meet you cerad. I used to be an atheist. Please forgive me if I don’t respond quickly to your next response, I will be working 12 hour days for the next three days. Sunday will be the earliest time I will be back on CAF (and back into the world of the living
). Till then, take care.
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patg
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Much of the bible is fiction - fiction is a perfectly valid vehicle for revelation. The church’s dogmatic documents on interpretation state that the bible contains many different literary forms, only some of which are literal history. The church only requires belief in the literal historicity of a small handful of passages.
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lumenorientale
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Though I totally agree with everything you just said, Mark, I’m just going to warn you that Pascal’s Wager–or anything similar to it–does not work with modern atheists. Just saying…
What worked with me was seeing lives transformed, seeing folks like Mother Theresa make the daily severe sacrifices that would seem pointless to the atheist. Why do they do this? There must be something behind it.
Oh, and cerad, before you say “well, this happens in other religions,” I would argue back that no, it doesn’t. Not to the same degree. Buddhist monks live lives of poverty and self deprivation, but not for the good of anyone but themselves–for themselves to reach nirvana. I’ve seen Muslims live very moral, very clean lives, but do they go through the privation and self sacrifice to feed the poor and clothe the needy as the Saints? Nope. I’ve met very good, loving, kind and decent atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, and Hindus. But I’ve never met anyone willing to lay down his or her life for others like a serious Christian. I had to have that…whatever it was that made that possible.
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COPLAND_3
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Liberal “Bible scholars” say the same thing, which is related to a discussion I have had recently on this forum. Personally, I have a great deal of patience with atheist who say the Bible is fiction, but I have a hard time when Christians believe it.
The Catholic Church and her 2000 years of documented history (Church Fathers, and Saints writings) is a real faith builder for me. Archeology is another side that is undeniable to me. The many thousands of ancient Bible manuscripts shows me that it has been vastly held as sacred documents, I just can’t imagine devoted scribes would treat fiction like that. Too many ancient Christians shed their blood over what the Bible teaches, the OT saints did in OT times, and the NT saints in the 1st and 2nd centuries, with the Apostles being very convincing because they were eye witnesses to Christ Himself, and who would have died for what they knew was fiction?
The Catholic Church and her 2000 years of documented history (Church Fathers, and Saints writings) is a real faith builder for me. Archeology is another side that is undeniable to me. The many thousands of ancient Bible manuscripts shows me that it has been vastly held as sacred documents, I just can’t imagine devoted scribes would treat fiction like that. Too many ancient Christians shed their blood over what the Bible teaches, the OT saints did in OT times, and the NT saints in the 1st and 2nd centuries, with the Apostles being very convincing because they were eye witnesses to Christ Himself, and who would have died for what they knew was fiction?
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Lmora
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My point to the Athiest was, that God does replenish all things. Just as he replenishes the water by making it rain, etc, etc. I do wish I could find that website to explain what this guy said, exactly about the Cosmos. What he did say made a lot of sense and the Athiest did not know how to answer that question I shot at him.
And yes, this scientist did say that Hydrogen and Helium does need to be replenished , but God aleady takes care of that for us.
Lmora
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Contarini
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Why is the number of copies the decisive issue? Sure, it’s somewhat relevant because a single copy could have been interpolated and we’d be less likely to know. But it’s not the main criterion one consults when deciding whether a text is historically accurate.
So why do people keep bringing up this issue?
Edwin
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Contarini
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That’s a somewhat evasive phrase. Sure, many scholars doubt whether most of what the New Testament tells us about Jesus is accurate. But the vast majority of scholars agree that there was a Jewish rabbi named Jesus who was crucified by Pontius Pilate and who did and taught at least some of the things recorded in the New Testament, giving rise to the movement that would become Christianity after his death (on the basis of the belief by his earliest followers that he had risen from the dead). Only a very tiny minority of scholars would question this.
Edwin
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Contarini
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You’re not giving us much to go on. What are their arguments?
Practically no scholars would say that all of the Bible is fiction. However, how much of it is historical is widely debated. There are quite a few Old Testament scholars, for instance, who think that the narrative to and including the reigns of David and Solomon is largely fictional, and that we only start to see genuine history with the “Divided monarchy.” This is largely based on an extreme skepticism toward written texts and a bias toward archeological sources (not ruling out anti-Christian or generally anti-religious bias, as either strengthening or even giving the basis for this pro-archaeological bias). We have clear archeological evidence for Jehu and some of the other monarchs of the 9th century and later. Earlier than that there really isn’t much if anything. So the “minimalists” argue that it’s pretty much all fiction. To argue against this, you have to ask why we should start with the assumption that ancient written sources are fictional. It seems unlikely that they wouldn’t have some historical basis. The minimalists need to be challenged to provide more solid reasons for simply writing off these texts.
An important distinction you need to make is between “absence of evidence” and “evidence of absence.” If the atheists are arguing that your faith is irrational because “the Bible is fiction” you should point out that they can’t do this by simply pointing to the absence of archeological evidence or other corroboration. However, if you are trying to prove that the Bible *is *historically accurate then you have a much tougher job.
Edwin
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patg
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Fiction is not a synonym for lies - it is a perfectly valid genre for teaching the truth and a perfectly valid vehicle for revelation.
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