Need help !

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It appears to be in line with the typical revisionist history and some misguided notions of Presbyterians that God saved humanity from the only Church He gave to us in the first place. They hang their hat on Augustine, who, while he was an early church father and wrote some brilliant works, was never Pope and never entrusted to shape church doctrine. It’s intersting that they accept Augustine, but for the most part, reject Thomas Aquinas.
 
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StCsDavid:
It appears to be in line with the typical revisionist history and some misguided notions of Presbyterians that God saved humanity from the only Church He gave to us in the first place. They hang their hat on Augustine, who, while he was an early church father and wrote some brilliant works, was never Pope and never entrusted to shape church doctrine. It’s intersting that they accept Augustine, but for the most part, reject Thomas Aquinas.
thanks for the response … what did Augustine say that goes against the Church ?
 
[quote=rpcca.org]The early church was based upon a pattern of representative government. The word Presbyterian comes from the Greek term presbuteros meaning elder. It refers to the Apostolic system of choosing leaders from among those who are the wisest members of the church, based upon biblical qualifications. It literally means ruling by elders, based upon a representative system of government, that is, government by the consent of the people. As time passed, the church began to divert its government from a representative system to an Episcopal hierarchy in ecclesiastical authority.
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We know this much about the filling church offices from the Bible:
  1. The Twelve Apostles were chosen for their office by Jesus Christ himself, not by the consent of the body of his disciples.
  2. When Matthias was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot as an apostle in Acts 1:15-26, the body of disciples proposed two candidates to the Apostles for this appointment and Matthias was chosen over Barsabbas by the casting of lots.
  3. In Acts 6, when the Church needed helpers (deacons) for the daily distribution of food the Apostles told the body of disciples, “[P]ick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this duty.” Although the selection of these deacon candidates was done by the body of disciples, there is no indication that the Apostles were strictly bound to appoint those men. Also, this was not an office of preaching and teaching but an office to oversee the distribution of food.
So, I find no scriptural justification in support of the claim on the webpage that the early Church was a strictly “representative system of government…government by the consent of the people” with regard to the appointment of presbyters.

On the contrary, the Bible explicitly speaks against people choosing their own teachers:3For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. (2 Timothy 4:3)

Scripture shows that presbyters were appointed, not by the congregations, but by the apostles, as in Acts 14:23:23And when they [Barnabas and Paul] had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they believed. 24Then they passed through Pisid’ia, and came to Pamphyl’ia.

Or, presbyters were appointed by men sent by the apostles, such as Timothy and Titus:5This is why I left you in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you, (Titus 1:5)

Although the body of disciples may have had some role in proposing candidates to the office of presbyter, there is no indication that the Apostles or those appointed by them for the task were strictly bound to appoint the body’s choices. Paul’s instruction to Timothy in reference to the appointment of elders “not be hasty in the laying on of hands” (1 Timothy 5:22) and that those who aspire to the office of bishop should “be tested first” (3:10) indicate that the ultimate choice of who is appointed a presbyter resides not with the body of disciples but with those already ordained, with the apostles or those appointed to the task by the apostles.
 
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PaulKorb:
thanks for the response … what did Augustine say that goes against the Church ?
Augustine’s views on predestination seem a bit at odds with church tradtion and teachings; though I’ve never seen anything where he spoke out against the church. He had a unique (as early Church fathers didn’t express a similar view) opinion on the matter and Calvin took that opinion as truth.

Check out this link to read a synopsis (though a rather long one) on the matter. newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
 
Thank you Todd and David … I have a friend who goes to this church who has invited me to ask questions of him about his church’s teachings … he is studying to be an elder

this is a good opportunity but i need to be prepared … thanks for your help
 
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PaulKorb:
Thank you Todd and David … I have a friend who goes to this church who has invited me to ask questions of him about his church’s teachings … he is studying to be an elder

this is a good opportunity but i need to be prepared … thanks for your help
Be prepared. One thing I really do admire about our Presbyterian brethren is that they do know their faith…as in error as some of it is. I have a very dear friend who is an elder in that church and a more stubborn fellow I have not met. Even he, however, has never been able to explain fully how they arrive at sola scriptura since it’s not being mentioned in scripture.
 
With respect to the notion that presbyters ruled by the consent of the body of disciples, in addition to not finding any scriptural support in favor of any kind of direct election of presbyters by the body of disciples as indicated in my earlier post, neither do I find any scriptural support for the periodic re-election of presbyters nor for any process for the body of disciples to follow should a presbyter fall out of their favor and they desire to remove him from his office other than bringing a charge against him to his ordained peers or his ordained superiors.

On the contrary, the Bible says, “Obey your leaders and submit to them…” (Hebrews 13:17)

Although the body of disciples may play a role as witnesses in bringing a charge against a presbyter who sins, the Bible indicates that disciplining a presbyter is to be done by another ordained person, presumably by his superior. Paul instructs Timothy:

19Never admit any charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 20As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. (1 Timothy 5:19-20)

By the way, the hierarchy of the early Church is rather ambiguous. Presbyter (elder) and bishop (overseer) seem to be used synonomously. (Acts 20:17 and 28; Titus 1:5-7) An apostle is sometimes referred to as a bishop (Acts 1:20 KJV) or a presbyter. (1 Peter 5:1) However, what we do know is that the decisions of the apostles and elders were binding on the body of disciples. (Acts 16:4)
 
Thank you again Todd and David.

One thing that I find troubling about the Presbertian faith is that it seems as though the very process of having elders define faith/morals means that one set of elders could be different from another down the street. Or do they have some set of core positions on certain matters?

One thing that struck me about their website is the home page mentions creationism as a strict 24 hour six day event. I wonder why that’s such a big deal with them to put it on their front page? I also wonder how they would square this position with the Catholic view, so I suppose I could ask him that.

Another question would be to ask them to provide a source re: the Augustine point they are trying to make.

What question would you recommend asking first?
 
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