J
javelin
Guest
Many great responses so far – thank you! I have no hope of keeping up with them all right now, but will try again in the morning.
Thank you all.
Peace,
javelin
Thank you all.
Peace,
javelin
- Status
A
alessandro
Guest
I agree with KCT – Now comes the point when we should cite specific sources and stop with the anecdotal evidence (myself included). I remember an article from The Latin Mass journal that stated if NFP was practiced with the intention of not conceiving, and without “legitimate” circumstances that necessitate that practice, then the couple was in a state of mortal sin, just as if they had used other methods of contraception. I will have to try to find the source and I will post it.
If anyone else has resources they can cite, please do.
A
alessandro
Guest
**I invite everyone to a related thread in the Moral Theology forum:
When is NFP morally permissible?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=64749
**
When is NFP morally permissible?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=64749
**
K
kamz
Guest
Does your parish offer a class? Most parishes do or will direct you to where you can find good classes on NFP, our parish actually will bring in husband and wife teams to teach the class, but in smaller parishes you might have to drive to a larger one but my parents did that 40 years ago and it worked for them, but you need to go to a class my mom said, it is really nice to have things explained to both husband and wife step by step by another couple who can mentor you and even get to know others who use it, my best friend just completed a NFP class, she said the room was jam packed with couples, so just ask around, I’m sure there is one in your area. Good luck.
C
carol_marie
Guest
Javelin,
In your original post you asked if anyone tried that thing where you that test the chemical reaction of your saliva ?? Save your $$ seriously. We used that thing faithfully and according to it… I was NOT ovulating. That was 12 weeks ago… and I start my 2nd trimester soon.
Sorry you are getting hit hard over the pill. Really you must’ve expected that though? You & your wife may be aborting a child month after month. It doesn’t get any more serious than that. My vote goes for abstinance also. It works EVERY time.
In your original post you asked if anyone tried that thing where you that test the chemical reaction of your saliva ?? Save your $$ seriously. We used that thing faithfully and according to it… I was NOT ovulating. That was 12 weeks ago… and I start my 2nd trimester soon.
Sorry you are getting hit hard over the pill. Really you must’ve expected that though? You & your wife may be aborting a child month after month. It doesn’t get any more serious than that. My vote goes for abstinance also. It works EVERY time.
Y
YinYangMom
Guest
From Humanae Vitae:
"If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. (20)
Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former** the married couple rightly use a faculty** provided them by nature. In the latter they obstruct the natural development of the generative process.** It cannot be denied** that in each case the married couple,** for acceptable reasons**, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another.** In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love**. "
"If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. (20)
Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former** the married couple rightly use a faculty** provided them by nature. In the latter they obstruct the natural development of the generative process.** It cannot be denied** that in each case the married couple,** for acceptable reasons**, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another.** In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love**. "
P
Princess_Abby
Guest
I remember Javelin from almost a year ago, in another thread, where he posted much of his wife’s personal health information and it became extremely clear that they have just reasons to abstain/avoid during ovulation. (I only say this for all of you who are openly speculating whether or not it is morally permissible for he and his wife to use NFP to avoid.)
Javelin: PLEASE tell your wife to get in touch with a Creighton Model practioner. I know exactly what your wife is talking about in terms of sympto-thermal. Doing internal checks on one’s cervix and to check for early mucus was not something I enjoyed either. Creighton is a method that ONLY measures what a woman externally produces. She is NEVER asked to do any internal checks whatsoever. It is a very, very simple sticker recording system that is done once a day, at night before bed. The fertility practioner can explain the rest, but the only other involvement is basically checking indications that are easily observed on toilet paper. It’s SO simple and 99 percent accurate. They call it “Napro Technology” and the introductory sessions are free. Materials are $25.
Do a google search for “the creighton model” or “napro technology.” It should lead you to a website that will let you select a fertility practioner of the Creighton Model in your area who will guide you both very carefully in learning and using it.
Abby
Javelin: PLEASE tell your wife to get in touch with a Creighton Model practioner. I know exactly what your wife is talking about in terms of sympto-thermal. Doing internal checks on one’s cervix and to check for early mucus was not something I enjoyed either. Creighton is a method that ONLY measures what a woman externally produces. She is NEVER asked to do any internal checks whatsoever. It is a very, very simple sticker recording system that is done once a day, at night before bed. The fertility practioner can explain the rest, but the only other involvement is basically checking indications that are easily observed on toilet paper. It’s SO simple and 99 percent accurate. They call it “Napro Technology” and the introductory sessions are free. Materials are $25.
Do a google search for “the creighton model” or “napro technology.” It should lead you to a website that will let you select a fertility practioner of the Creighton Model in your area who will guide you both very carefully in learning and using it.
Abby
J
javelin
Guest
Feanaro’s Wife said:“that far into herself”???
PLEASE take a course/classes… mucus should be able to be checked externally (usually on toilet tissue when visiting the bathroom anyway… but certainly no further than what she would do for regular cleaning.
Sorry to be graphic but I hope this helps…
Malia
Well, we went through training about 8 years ago, and that’s not what we were taught.
They basically said the only place to check cervical mucus accurately was at the cervix itself, which entails reaching all the way through the vagina. I think this was because it takes time for cervical mucus to make its way to the vaginal opening, and so days of fertility could be missed if you only checked externally.
I realize this could be wrong, but it is what we were taught.
Thank you for sharing your testimony. God bless.
Peace,
javelin
J
javelin
Guest
My wife and I both know that one child was due to our indiscretion, while the other was a day 7 conception. Both are gifts from God!
The ectopic is the strange one. She felt the abdominal pain only about 4 days after what she thought was her normal menstrual bleeding. If we figured the bleeding was actually from the ectopic, we still saw just about no way the conception could have happened. Another miracle, although with sadness attached.
The ectopic was the first of a series of medical issues that makes it risky to a child and my wife if she were to become pregnant, which is what pushed her over the line for using ABC. She needs to be sure she won’t get pregnant, and she doesn’t have faith in NFP right now. I also offered almost complete abstinence, as that is the only 100% effective method, but she doesn’t think that’s good for our marriage.
So I’m still praying for her and looking for other options.
Peace,
javelin
J
javelin
Guest
That’s the same product I linked to in the OP. Looks interesting.
We’ve talked a lot about that, actually. But she has been assured by the doctors that the pills nowadays are extremely effective at preventing ovulation in the first place. In order to minimize any very slight risk, we are still abstaining during what would normally be her fertility window.
She did say she would stop taking the pill if I would use a condom, but that’s a very difficult thing for me to choose. I basically told her that that was unfair to me – it was basically asking me to sin so she wouldn’t have to, and making me choose between my love for her and for God. I told her I would rather completely abstain. Part of me wants to take her up on the offer to “save” her the hardship, but it is very hard for me to do something I am completely convinced is wrong.
Peace,
javelin
J
javelin
Guest
Basically, yes.
She doesn’t really buy the reasons why ABC is sinful and NFP is not, so to her NFP is a burden on our marriage, not a respect for God’s law, providence, and the immeasurable gift of our sexuality.
So as usual, the root of the problem is much deeper than her not trusting sympto-thermal NFP.
Thank you for the references!
Peace,
javelin
J
javelin
Guest
I’m fully aware of the Church’s teaching on this now (I wasn’t several years ago), and be assured that we now have serious medical reasons to avoid pregnancy. That’s the crux of her dilemma. Her doctors, friends and parents all tell her she needs to “protect herself”, so the Church is just looking like an authoritarian where “all is black and white”, where she feels her situation is clearly in the “gray”. Obviously, it doesn’t help that the figures in the Church she has spoken with have been wishy-washy on it.
I feel like I’m the only voice defending the Church.
Pray for me,
javelin
N
NFPfamily
Guest
*Humanae Vitae *also refers to responsible parenthood. As far as our Church, it does not promote any size as the ideal, but teaches generosity among your circumstances.
Dr. Janet Smith (Contraception, Why Not) has said that she believes the phrase just reasons correctly p(name removed by moderator)oints the weightiness of avoiding children. Trivial reasons are not acceptable, but that less than life-threatening conditions may be considered. The point is, the decision to postpone children shouldn’t be taken lightly, but seriously considered between spouses, prayed about, and revisited periodically.
Pope John Paul II spoke in 1994 at a UN conference, making the following points: Unfortunately, Catholic thought is often misunderstood on the point (of responsible parenthood). As if the Church supported fertility at all costs, urging couples to procreate without thought for the future. Truly, the spouses are God’s co-workers. They must have an extremely responsible attitude. In deciding whether or not to have a child, they must not be motivated by selfishness or carelessness, but by a prudent, conscious generosity that weighs the possibilities and circumstances and gives priority to the welfare of the unborn child. Therefore, when there is a reason not to procreate, this choice is permissible and may even be necessary. However, there remains the duty of carrying it out with criteria and methods that respect the total truth of the marital act in its unitive and procreative dimension, as wisely regulated by nature itself in its biological rhythms. One can comply with them and use them to advantage, but they cannot be violated by artificial interference.
(excerpts taken from The Art of Natural Family Planning, Kippley.)
As far as couples committing mortal sin, in my experience with people using NFP (we teach sympto-thermal), when couples are committed to practicing NFP for moral reasons, then at times of postponing a pregnancy, they feel that they have just reasons. Even if others would not view them that way, each couple believes the reasons are serious enough for them. In this way, they would not be committing a mortal sin because the conditions of mortal sin would not be met with full knowledge or intent.
Furthermore, sufficiently serious reasons need to be completely unselfish. As a couple, and through prayer, it is important to realize the obligations to your existing children, future children, and others. Some people are more capapable to meet the needs of a large family, while others are not.
J
javelin
Guest
I have offered several times to completely abstain, or abstain except during the first few days of her cycle or long after 20 days into it, whatever she would feel comfortable with.If your wife cannot trust NFP, why not try a hobby. Kneel down and pray throughout the night. Make rosaries, read a book, do laundry, adopt 7 more children. Meditate on the life of St.Joseph.
I know what some of your are thinking…(insert incredulous whine here: “You don’t expect me to go without sex, do you?”)
It’s called practicing self-control. How in the world do we expect our children to stay chaste BEFORE marriage if we cannot be that example, even in a married state. I was taught once that only animals could not control their urges. (Now if you put me next to a box of chocolate doughnuts, that’s a different story.)
What do you think Christ meant when he said “pick up your cross and follow me?” :ehh:
Oh, and one more thing. You do know that Artificial Birth Control is contrary to Church teaching, but dig a little further – it’s INTRINSICALLY evil, WHICH MAKES IT A MORTAL SIN. Not a little venial sin, but a big whopping MORTAL sin. :bigyikes:
As a good, practicing Catholic, you can solve your wife’s problems by withholding, especially since she’s on the pill. If you truly love your wife, you’ll want to keep ***her *** in God’s graces as well as yourself.
I write with complete confidence in this matter since I’ve heard this same issue discussed at least a dozen times on EWTN and Catholic radio. :angel1:
She also knows full well (she told me straight out) that even if I disagree with her choosing to contracept, it would be wrong for me to deliberately withold intimacy from her. That’s been stated several times on these forums, even in the AAA forum. I did say that while I would not reject her, it makes intimacy much less desirable for me. That’s just the truth.
Ultimately, though, this is her decision to contracept, and with all the pressures on her, and her disbelief that it is mortally sinful, I don’t think it is mortally sinful for her. It can be argued that she does not have full knowledge of the gravity of the sin, nor is she acting completely of her own free will.
Peace,
javelin
N
NFPfamily
Guest
I have no doubts that you were taught that way, but you should be able to find an instructor to help you tune the sympto-thermal method to meet your circumstances. I teach many women who are very uncomfortable making the internal observations, so I have worked with them in reliably charting other signs and using rules to determine fertility based more heavily on the temperature pattern.
It’s just so sad that she didn’t seek help sooner in coaching her through this method when she was still open to it. From what you’ve posted so far, it sounds like she wouldn’t be open to trying her charting again with the proper counseling, but if she is (prayer works wonders!) then let me know if you can’t find anyone to help.
There have also been many references to the Creighton method. Perhaps a “new” method would help her have more confidence. I know people who love this form of NFP as much as I love my STM! In fact, I have met teacher of the STM who use Creighton because it works better for them.
Either way, I hope she comes back to realizing why this is God’s plan. If you haven’t ever heard Contraception, Why Not? then I suggest you listen to it with her if she is having trouble grasping the reasoning behind the Church’s stance. It is invaluable and has converted the thinking of many stubborn-minded people! (I know that because I was one of them!)
Finally, I want to say GOD BLESS YOU!!! You sound like such a caring and devoted husband to research this so much and seek answers to the Truth. Don’t give up on your wife- she’ll come around! Just keep praying, fasting, whatever it takes!
J
javelin
Guest
carol marie:
carol marie:
OTOH, the doctors managed to completely convince my wife that abortion was not going to happen. All the studies I’ve seen on break-through ovulation with the pill and it abortive nature are very old. Is there a modern study on this that is scientifically credible? Even a very orthodox priest I spoke with who is the only person around here who is in agreement with the Church, and who also has spent many years studying and teaching biomedical ethics, virtually dismissed the chances of people spontaneously aborting because of the pill.
So the jury seems to be out on that one.
I still don’t want anything to do with it.
Even so, we are continuing to abstain during the normal fertile window to avoid the chance of a breakthrough conception and spontaneous abortion.
Peace,
javelin
Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut. Can I ask which product, specifically, you used? Congrats on your little one!
carol marie:
Thanks for your concern. Believe me that I want nothing to do with the pill.
OTOH, the doctors managed to completely convince my wife that abortion was not going to happen. All the studies I’ve seen on break-through ovulation with the pill and it abortive nature are very old. Is there a modern study on this that is scientifically credible? Even a very orthodox priest I spoke with who is the only person around here who is in agreement with the Church, and who also has spent many years studying and teaching biomedical ethics, virtually dismissed the chances of people spontaneously aborting because of the pill.
So the jury seems to be out on that one.
I still don’t want anything to do with it.
Even so, we are continuing to abstain during the normal fertile window to avoid the chance of a breakthrough conception and spontaneous abortion.
Peace,
javelin
N
NFPfamily
Guest
I am offering my opinion on the matter of your wife being in mortal sin, which is different than yours. I am not trying to judge her, I am just thinking that if I were in that situation, I would consider myself in sin.
When the Church comes out with its teachings, as it has strictly condemned contraception, calling it intrinsically evil, then to disregard that teaching would put the offender in mortal sin, I believe. I think it pretty much defines mortal sin as having knowledge of the Church’s stance and disregarding it. People who say that the Church’s teaching is wrong, or they don’t agree with it, are not practicing humble obedience to Christ. Point being, we don’t have to agree with or like the Church’s teachings, but we are called to follow them anyway and to seek the Truth that we can understand it better and more fully. I find it doubtful that your wife can find material supporting that the Church doesn’t teach that contraception is wrong.
As your spouse, it is your lifelong responsibility to try to get her to Heaven. Bring her to the Truth! Surround her with resources supporting the Church’s teaching in a way that she will come to understand it (Again, *Contraception Why Not? *is a great one!). Have her talk to priests that teach the Truth, not the wishy-washy ones. God Bless!
N
NFPfamily
Guest
I fail at bringing you official studies, but common sense still brings me to believe in the possibility of an abortion occuring. No matter how slim the chances, the mere risk of it is disheartening.
The fact alone that a woman can get pregnant on the pill suggests that anything is possible. Whether hormonal contraceptives suppress ovulation more these days is irrelevant to me, because I know several women who do get pregnant anyway. This likely happens if it is not taken regularly, but there are legitimate failures of the method as well.
In the three major physical changes the hormones create in the woman, one of them makes the endometrium so thin that a newly conceived life would have difficulty attaching itself to the uterine wall. This is also why women on artificial hormones experience lighter periods. This change does take place in women on any hormonal contraceptive, so I would say it’s still very possible. The information that is given from the contraceptives does list this physical change in its effects, but of course, they don’t define “life” until after conception has occurred and attached itself at implantation, so they claim this doesn’t work as an abortifacient.
J
javelin
Guest
From the Catechism (emphasis mine):
The Catechism is SO rich…
Peace,
javelin
K
kenzi
Guest
I really hope you and your wife can get some help, I once thought that the pill was o.k. too but have seen the light of my mistake and misunderstanding, I do so hope that you will be able to convince your wife to take a class for NFP or seek some help, the pill is not the answer, pray about it daily, I’ll pray for you too.
- Status