Need Quick Abortion answer

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Not sure if this falls under apologetics or not…but a friend said he read the Catholic Church “accepted abortion” until 1869. My first response (through instant message) was where he read this. My second response was maybe there wasn’t an official decree against it but even as early as the Didache we have church theologians saying it must not be done. Since he hasn’t responded yet, I need help ahead of time. Anyone know anything about Abortion being “acceptable” until 1869?

Thanks!
 
This is complete bunk. NO Christian denom accepted even Artificial Birth Control until 1930 and then it was the U.S. Episcopal church that caved while most of the rest followed.
The Catholic Church has never accepted it or abortion…
Pax tecum,
 
If he can’t provide a source than you must believe (and tell him so) that he cannot because one does not exist, until he is able to prove otherwise. This is a basic rule of debate.
 
well…I learned more from him. I guess it’s something called the “Quickening” or “Animation” or “Ensoulment” that was debated for many years and wasn’t completely decided upon until 1869. There were some catholic writers who debated whether or not it was ok to abort before Animation.
 
Quickening refers to when the mother first feels the child move in her womb, and was considered by many theologians (including St. Thomas Aquinas) to be the point that one could certainly say that a human soul was present. It was NEVER considered ok to abort before this point, however. It was still a violation of God’s action and creation.

When science improved, and it could be seen that the child was alive before it “kicked” in the womb, the idea that the soul entered at the quickening was abandoned. The Church didn’t CHANGE its stance at that point, it simply settled a minor debate. Abortion was always considered wrong, even before we knew the exact process of life in the womb.
 
It is always wrong to take an innocent human life. Early theologians struggled with the question of exactly what constitutes “human life.”

The question, “when does human life begin,” is not theological, but scientific. Early theologians relied on crude scientific knowledge about the measure of life (such as animation). Modern science understands and measures “life” by metabolic activity (consumption of oxygen, production of waste, etc) and measures terms like “human” (as opposed to “monkey” or “amoeba”) according to genetic criteria.

Per this scientific understanding, a human embryo is a distinct, living human being from the instant of conception.

If earlier theologians had understood this biological fact, they would have defended human life from the instant of conception, because they always defended human life, even though they did not fully understand under what circumstances such life may exist.
 
Abortion was ALWAYS condemned by the Chuch. Now, there was a time during the animation debate in which someone would get a lighter penance for an abortion before animation compared to a post animation abortion, but it was still considered mortal sin either way.
 
Just remind this scholastic saying:

Gratis asseritur, gratis negatur (What is said withour proofs can be negated withour proofs)

I wouldn’t care about an affirmation supported in nothing. Always give reasons of whatyou believe and also ask the other for reasons of their faith.

🙂
 
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HistoryTeacher:
Not sure if this falls under apologetics or not…but a friend said he read the Catholic Church “accepted abortion” until 1869. My first response (through instant message) was where he read this. My second response was maybe there wasn’t an official decree against it but even as early as the Didache we have church theologians saying it must not be done. Since he hasn’t responded yet, I need help ahead of time. Anyone know anything about Abortion being “acceptable” until 1869?

Thanks!
In 1869, Pope Pius IX declared that abortion incurred “automatic excommunication.” The addition to Church law was the automatic-ness of the excommunication.

However, abortion wasn’t being called a “serious sin” for the first time. The Church had previously condemned abortion as murder.
 
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BibleReader:
In 1869, Pope Pius IX declared that abortion incurred “automatic excommunication.” The addition to Church law was the automatic-ness of the excommunication.
I believe that the addition to Church law was the excommunication for the abortion of “non-animated” fetuses.

In 1588, Pope Sixtus V issued Effraenatum, which made abortion at any stage of pregnancy grounds for excommunication. Three years later, Pope Gregory XIV revised this so that the excommuniation only applied to abortions of “animated” fetuses. Pope Greogry XIV’s rule remained in effect until 1869.

At no time did the Church say that abortion of non-animated fetuses was “okay”, just that it did not merit excommunication.
 
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Catholic2003:
I believe that the addition to Church law was the excommunication for the abortion of “non-animated” fetuses.
Wel-l-l-l-l, I’m not sure that Pius’ failure to make the distinction comprised an affirmative expansion of the abortion doctrine.

For example, Pope Clement, in his Epistle, makes no distinction between “quickened” and “un-quickened” fetuses. Like the Didache, he simply nastily condemns “abortion.”
 
Catholic Positions on Abortion

The Didache

“The second commandment of the teaching: You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not seduce boys. You shall not commit fornication. You shall not steal. You shall not practice magic. You shall not use potions. You shall not procure [an] abortion, nor destroy a newborn child” (*Didache *2:1–2 [A.D. 70]).

The Letter of Barnabas
“The way of light, then, is as follows. If anyone desires to travel to the appointed place, he must be zealous in his works. The knowledge, therefore, which is given to us for the purpose of walking in this way, is the following. . . . Thou shalt not slay the child by procuring abortion; nor, again, shalt thou destroy it after it is born” (*Letter of Barnabas *19 [A.D. 74]).

The Apocalypse of Peter
“And near that place I saw another strait place . . . and there sat women. . . . And over against them many children who were born to them out of due time sat crying. And there came forth from them rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes. And these were the accursed who conceived and caused abortion” (*The Apocalypse of Peter *25 [A.D. 137]).

Athenagoras
“What man of sound mind, therefore, will affirm, while such is our character, that we are murderers?
. . . [W]hen we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder? For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very fetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God’s care, and when it has passed into life, to kill it; and not to expose an infant, because those who expose them are chargeable with child-murder, and on the other hand, when it has been reared to destroy it” (*A Plea for the Christians *35 [A.D. 177]).

Tertullian
“In our case, a murder being once for all forbidden, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb, while as yet the human being derives blood from the other parts of the body for its sustenance. To hinder a birth is merely a speedier man-killing; nor does it matter whether you take away a life that is born, or destroy one that is coming to birth. That is a man which is going to be one; you have the fruit already in its seed” (*Apology *9:8 [A.D. 197]).

"Among surgeons’ tools there is a certain instrument, which is formed with a nicely-adjusted flexible frame for opening the uterus first of all and keeping it open; it is further furnished with an annular blade, by means of which the limbs [of the child] within the womb are dissected with anxious but unfaltering care; its last appendage being a blunted or covered hook, wherewith the entire fetus is extracted by a violent delivery.

"There is also [another instrument in the shape of] a copper needle or spike, by which the actual death is managed in this furtive robbery of life: They give it, from its infanticide function, the name of embruosphaktes, [meaning] “the slayer of the infant,” which of course was alive. . . .

“[The doctors who performed abortions] all knew well enough that a living being had been conceived, and [they] pitied this most luckless infant state, which had first to be put to death, to escape being tortured alive” (*The Soul *25 [A.D. 210]).

“Now we allow that life begins with conception because we contend that the soul also begins from conception; life taking its commencement at the same moment and place that the soul does” (ibid., 27).

“The law of Moses, indeed, punishes with due penalties the man who shall cause abortion [Ex. 21:22–24]” (ibid., 37).
 
Catholic Positions on Abortion (continued)

Minucius Felix

“There are some [pagan] women who, by drinking medical preparations, extinguish the source of the future man in their very bowels and thus commit a parricide before they bring forth. And these things assuredly come down from the teaching of your [false] gods. . . . To us [Christians] it is not lawful either to see or hear of homicide” (*Octavius *30 [A.D. 226]).

Hippolytus
“Women who were reputed to be believers began to take drugs to render themselves sterile, and to bind themselves tightly so as to expel what was being conceived, since they would not, on account of relatives and excess wealth, want to have a child by a slave or by any insignificant person. See, then, into what great impiety that lawless one has proceeded, by teaching adultery and murder at the same time!” (*Refutation of All Heresies *[A.D. 228]).

Lactantius
"When God forbids us to kill, he not only prohibits us from open violence, which is not even allowed by the public laws, but he warns us against the commission of those things which are esteemed lawful among men. . . . Therefore, let no one imagine that even this is allowed, to strangle newly-born children, which is the greatest impiety; for God breathes into their souls for life, and not for death. But men, that there may be no crime with which they may not pollute their hands, deprive [unborn] souls as yet innocent and simple of the light which they themselves have not given.

“Can anyone, indeed, expect that they would abstain from the blood of others who do not abstain even from their own? But these are, without any controversy, wicked and unjust” (*Divine Institutes *6:20 [A.D. 307]).

Council of Ancyra
“Concerning women who commit fornication, and destroy that which they have conceived, or who are employed in making drugs for abortion, a former decree excluded them until the hour of death, and to this some have assented. Nevertheless, being desirous to use somewhat greater lenity, we have ordained that they fulfill ten years [of penance], according to the prescribed degrees” (canon 21 [A.D. 314]).

Basil the Great
“Let her that procures abortion undergo ten years’ penance, whether the embryo were perfectly formed, or not” (First Canonical Letter, canon 2 [A.D. 374]).

“He that kills another with a sword, or hurls an axe at his own wife and kills her, is guilty of willful murder; not he who throws a stone at a dog, and unintentionally kills a man, or who corrects one with a rod, or scourge, in order to reform him, or who kills a man in his own defense, when he only designed to hurt him. But the man, or woman, is a murderer that gives a philtrum, if the man that takes it dies upon it; so are they who take medicines to procure abortion; and so are they who kill on the highway, and rapparees” (ibid., canon 8).

John Chrysostom
“Wherefore I beseech you, flee fornication. . . . Why sow where the ground makes it its care to destroy the fruit?—where there are many efforts at abortion?—where there is murder before the birth? For even the harlot you do not let continue a mere harlot, but make her a murderess also. You see how drunkenness leads to prostitution, prostitution to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather to a something even worse than murder. For I have no name to give it, since it does not take off the thing born, but prevents its being born. Why then do thou abuse the gift of God, and fight with his laws, and follow after what is a curse as if a blessing, and make the chamber of procreation a chamber for murder, and arm the woman that was given for childbearing unto slaughter? For with a view to drawing more money by being agreeable and an object of longing to her lovers, even this she is not backward to do, so heaping upon thy head a great pile of fire. For even if the daring deed be hers, yet the causing of it is thine” (*Homilies on Romans *24 [A.D. 391]).

Jerome
“I cannot bring myself to speak of the many virgins who daily fall and are lost to the bosom of the Church, their mother. . . . Some go so far as to take potions, that they may insure barrenness, and thus murder human beings almost before their conception. Some, when they find themselves with child through their sin, use drugs to procure abortion, and when, as often happens, they die with their offspring, they enter the lower world laden with the guilt not only of adultery against Christ but also of suicide and child murder” (*Letters *22:13 [A.D. 396]).
 
Catholic Positions on Abortion (continued)

The Apostolic Constitutions

“Thou shalt not use magic. Thou shalt not use witchcraft; for he says, ‘You shall not suffer a witch to live’ [Ex. 22:18]. Thou shall not slay thy child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. . . . *f it be slain, [it] shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed” (*Apostolic Constitutions *7:3 [A.D. 400]).

**Pope Gregory the Great **
The aborted [fetus] because it is born before its due time, is immediately concealed [as] dead.-Moralia, Bk. IV, line 3 [private translation]

Moreover this abortion is best said to be secret because from the origins of the world, when we know Moses was writing certain things, part of the human family was greatly unknown/concealed to us.-Moralia, line 25 [private translation](A.D. 540-604)
*
 
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HistoryTeacher:
Not sure if this falls under apologetics or not…but a friend said he read the Catholic Church “accepted abortion” until 1869. My first response (through instant message) was where he read this. My second response was maybe there wasn’t an official decree against it but even as early as the Didache we have church theologians saying it must not be done. Since he hasn’t responded yet, I need help ahead of time. Anyone know anything about Abortion being “acceptable” until 1869?

Thanks!
As a teacher you know better than to take information on face value, ask him to provide his source. I’d be interested to know where this came from too.
 
They have nothing behind the claim. This is a typical pro-abortion ploy. They’ll say, “The Catholic Church didn’t oppose abortion until such-and-such a date,” and hope you’ll swallow it.

Another ploy is, “Show me in the Bible where abortion is forbidden” – which in effect demands you cease being Catholic and accept Sola Scriptura.
 
Behold the inheritance of the Lord are children: the reward, the fruit of the womb.
 
I think you guys may have missed something. When it is refering to unquickend in utero babies I think that it is refering to babies who have died in utero. Under proper medical guidance it is permissable to remove then then Dead person from the mothers body before it goes toxic and kills the mother too. This is not sanctioned abortion. This is the removal of dead people in utero before the poisons from the rotting corpse sicken and kill the mother. Now drinking a concoction that kills the baby would still be murder. But if the baby is dead and the mother is showing signs of poisoning it is permissable to drink something that would force her body to expel the corpse so that she can live. Just so you know I am not even a catecumin yet so anything I say must be balanced with my lack of knowledge but I liked this answer so I thought I would post it.
 
The early Christians, now known as Catholics ;^), made many converts by the example of their love for the unwanted and marginalized. They were known for taking in abandoned babies and raising them as their own, as well as for charitable acts such as feeding and housing needy widows, orphans, and alien sojourners, regardless of their faith or nationality.

Since the very beginning abortion has been a matter of grave or mortal sin, since it is an utter rejection of the Creator’s presence in our earthly lives.

We should also remember that the Church does not rule on unquestioned matters of faith, but only those which are questioned by theologians, heretics, or the faithful. So the ruling against abortion in 1869 wasn’t a new ruling, but a ruling on an established doctrine which had been questioned.

As for theologians discussing quickening and ensoulment, that is what theologians do. They test the limits of human understanding in relation to God’s revelation. And God has never revealed the exact moment of ensoulment to us beyond telling us that before He formed us in the womb, He knew us.

It sounds clear enough to me. Reasoning creatures prefer to err on the side of life, or on the side of not sinning when in doubt. Only someone in denial of the existence of a Creator with Us, would choose to err on the side of abortion, or euthanasia. Only the Creator creates life, man can only manipulate it.
 
I have posted various early Catholic positions on abortion. One thing that should not go unremarked is the early Catholic’s respect for the unborn and infants.

One of the mystries of how Catholicism spread is easily answered when we look at the practice of “exposing” infants – people would take unwanted infants to the dump, and leave them there. Early Catholics would rescue those children and raise them as Catholics.

To this day, there are orders of Oblates in the Church – from the word for “gift,” children taken in and raised by the Church.
 
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