Need quick answer for meeting with priest on gathering around the altar

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Elzee

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I’m meeting with a priest tomorrow to discuss his practice of asking members of his congregation to ‘gather around the altar’ during the consecration.

I’ve have found these sources that tell this is wrong:
From Sacrosanctum Concilium, art. 29:
In liturgical celebrations each one, minister or lay person, who has an office to perform, should do all of, but only, those parts whch pertain to that office by the nature of the rite and the principles of liturgy.

And from the Congregation of Divine Worship (Notitiae 17 (1981) 61:
D*uring the liturgy of the Eucharist, only the presiding celebrant remains at the altar. The assembly of the faithful take their place in the Church outside the “presbyterium” which is reserved for the celebrant or concelebrants and altar ministers.
*
My questions are:

  1. *]What is Sacrosanctum Concilium? (Is it a Vatican II document??) Do you think the reference I have is pertinent? (I found it in another post on this topic, but it confused me on how it related)
    *]Are these rules current?
    *]Are there any other official references I can cite to show this practice is wrong?
 
Elzee said:
I’m meeting with a priest tomorrow to discuss his practice of asking members of his congregation to ‘gather around the altar’ during the consecration.

I’ve have found these sources that tell this is wrong:
From Sacrosanctum Concilium, art. 29:
In liturgical celebrations each one, minister or lay person, who has an office to perform, should do all of, but only, those parts whch pertain to that office by the nature of the rite and the principles of liturgy.

And from the Congregation of Divine Worship (Notitiae 17 (1981) 61:
D*uring the liturgy of the Eucharist, only the presiding celebrant remains at the altar. The assembly of the faithful take their place in the Church outside the “presbyterium” which is reserved for the celebrant or concelebrants and altar ministers. *

My questions are:

  1. *]What is Sacrosanctum Concilium? (Is it a Vatican II document??) Do you think the reference I have is pertinent? (I found it in another post on this topic, but it confused me on how it related)
    *]Are these rules current?
    *]Are there any other official references I can cite to show this practice is wrong?
Click to expand...
    1. Vatican II document on the Liturgy, - No
    2. Yes
    3. Look in RS and the current GIRM, also try the “Instruction on Certain Questions Regarding the collaboration of the Non-Ordained Faithful in the Sacred Ministry of Priests”
 
From the 2002 General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :

“295. The sanctuary is the place where the altar stands, where the word of God is proclaimed, and where the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers exercise their offices. It should suitably be marked off from the body of the church either by its being somewhat elevated or by a particular structure and ornamentation. It should, however, be large enough to allow the Eucharist to be celebrated properly and easily seen.”

Altar servers will be in the sanctuary because they are ministers. Having everyone enter the sanctuary is at odds with this idea of a sanctuary.
 
…But completely integrated with the idea of communion.

For pete’s sake!
 
At the Cathedral in Saginaw it is customary to not only invite the congregation to gather around the altar but to join the priest in the gestures and in the doxlogoy of the Eucharistic prayer…
 
The last time I was there — probably three months ago — the invitation was given.
 
I’ll offer anecdotal evidence. A certain LifeTeen program had a habit of inviting teens to hold hands around the altar. The bishop informed them that this was incorrect and they stopped doing it. To the LifeTeen group’s credit they immediately stopped without being formally ordered to stop.

Scott
 
In San Diego in at least one Parish this sort of Mass, where the congregation ringing the altar is encouraged , is called a Missa Corona. Recently, this church was used as one of the training centers for new catechists. At the conclusion of their training a special Mass was held for them in the Adoration Chapel of this particular Church. As you may have guesssed the special Mass was indeed, a Missa Corona in which they were were all invited and encouraged to stand around the altar, hold hands and say the Consecration prayers along with the Priest. After the Mass both the Priest and the Director of Religious Education at the Church, who was one of the instructors told the newly minted catechists that they should encourage this sort of Mass in their Parishes because it deepened the appreciation of the Mass for all involved.
 
MICATH said:
At the Cathedral in Saginaw it is customary to not only invite the congregation to gather around the altar but to join the priest in the gestures and in the doxlogoy of the Eucharistic prayer…
Click to expand...
Well isn’t that special?
A whole congregation of Priest wannabees?
 
MICATH said:
At the Cathedral in Saginaw it is customary to not only invite the congregation to gather around the altar but to join the priest in the gestures and in the doxlogoy of the Eucharistic prayer…
Click to expand...
Since Nov. 4th at least, such invitations have been nixed. The GIRM is being implemented week by week in synchronization with the appropriate cathechism as released by the diocesan Office of Liturgy.
 
Elzee said:
I’m meeting with a priest tomorrow to discuss his practice of asking members of his congregation to ‘gather around the altar’ during the consecration.

I’ve have found these sources that tell this is wrong:
From Sacrosanctum Concilium, art. 29:
In liturgical celebrations each one, minister or lay person, who has an office to perform, should do all of, but only, those parts whch pertain to that office by the nature of the rite and the principles of liturgy.

And from the Congregation of Divine Worship (Notitiae 17 (1981) 61:
D*uring the liturgy of the Eucharist, only the presiding celebrant remains at the altar. The assembly of the faithful take their place in the Church outside the “presbyterium” which is reserved for the celebrant or concelebrants and altar ministers.
*
My questions are:

  1. *]What is Sacrosanctum Concilium? (Is it a Vatican II document??) Do you think the reference I have is pertinent? (I found it in another post on this topic, but it confused me on how it related)
    *]Are these rules current?
    *]Are there any other official references I can cite to show this practice is wrong?
Click to expand...

  1. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal, 162-partial quote: These ministers (referring to EMHC) should not approach the altar before the priest has received Communion, and they are always to receive from the hands of the priests…

    It stand to reason that if the EMHC’s cannot approach the altar before the priest has received Holy Communion, no one, IMHO should approach the altar under similar circumstances.
 
Elzee,

So what was the outcome with your meeting with the priest regarding your concerns?
 
Br_Mark said:
Elzee,

So what was the outcome with your meeting with the priest regarding your concerns?
Click to expand...
I was told he knows it’s not allowed, he knows the Bishop has in no uncertain terms told his priests not to do it and to strictly adhere to the GIRM and RS, but he “doesn’t care” (exact words). He thinks it is the pastoral thing to do and he will continue. He was very gracious during our discussion, but very clear that he has no intention of changing.

He also hinted that since he is an ‘order’ priest and not a ‘diocesan’ priest, he is technically not ‘fully’ under the authority of the diocesan Bishop. I’m not sure how all those politics work, and I didn’t take the comment to mean that his superior in his order overlooked this incorrect practice, just that* ‘the Bishop in the end will have a hard time getting me to change because I’m an ordered priest’. *That’s my own personal take on how it was presented. I didn’t ask for details.

I’m prayerfully considering writing the Bishop and carboning the priest. I won’t repeat what he said, but I will describe what occurred at Mass. Any suggestions?
 
If he is claiming that he recognizes his Provincial first, over the bishop, that is partially true. He (the Dominican, the Franciscan, the Benedictan ect)) is an Order priest on “loan” to the diocese.

But… it is with the permission of Diocese that he acts in his capacity. He should adhere to the policy of the diocese, and obey the Bishop in this matter.

You might consider writing to his Provincial and explaining all the details and asking them point blank [1] if he is obligated to listen to the bishop or do his own thing and [2] if the Order condones this abuse to the liturgy.

DO NOT give anyone the impression that you may be wrong in this, or that it is a minor thing and no big deal. Each abuse leads to another… witness the last 40 years of wandering in the liturgical desert since Vatican II.

You might include the GIRM references which instruct us on what IS to be done in the liturgy. ALL ELSE is NOT to be done.

And the GIRM is the instruction that must be followed by BOTH a diocese and an Order priest!!

Good luck… I feel you will have lots of posters here praying for your success.
 
MrS said:
Good luck… I feel you will have lots of posters here praying for your success.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your advice and your prayers, and I really ask for the prayers of all of you for this situation, and in regard to several things that have been going on in in my own “progressive” parish for years that really need to be made known to our Bishop. I need to sort out what to say and how to say it. I would rather speak to the Bishop face to face about these issues, but was told by his assistant that’s not possible due to his busy schedule and I should send a letter. I understand, but to me it’s also frustrating - I wish Bishops would reserve even a couple hours each month to ‘talk to their people’.

Back to my OP, how can I find out who this priest’s Provincial is?
 
Came across this:

ewtn.com/expert/answers/non-ordained.htm

…The argument often given by those who encourage this practice is to foster “community”. In 1981 the Congregation for Divine Worship addressed this question in its official journal Notitiae. In an official interpretation of no. 101 in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) it responded as follows:

…

Reply:…“In liturgical celebrations each one, minister or layperson, who has an office to perform, should do all of, but only, those parts which pertain to that office by the nature of the rite and the principles of liturgy.” (SC art. 29). During the liturgy of the eucharist, only the presiding celebrant remains at the altar. The assembly of the faithful take their place in the Church outside the “presbyterium,” which is reserved for the celebrant or concelebrants and altar ministers. [Notitiae 17 (1981) 61]

The necessity of preserving the proper distinction of roles was again addressed in 1997, as part of a larger problem of growing confusion between the roles of the ordained and the non-ordained. In that year, … Called the Instruction On Certain Questions Regarding The Collaboration Of The Non-Ordained Faithful In The Sacred Ministry Of Priest it noted the confusing practices present in the Church today which do not respect the theological distinction between those in Holy Orders and those who are not…​

Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL
 
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