Need some help answering a question

[catholictiger]

alright so I ran into this guy who posted this

That’s the RCC’s position on dogmas. Dogmas, being divinely-revealed truth, are immutable. They cannot be changed because truth cannot change. They cannot be re-defined, only clarrified or made more precise. They can never be made to say something opposite to what they originally said. Keeping this in mind, look again at the words used by Pope Boniface VIII to define the necessity of membership in the RCC and submission to the pope for salvation:

“With faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this (Church) outside which there is no salvation nor remission of sin . . . Furthermore, we declare, say, define and proclaim to every human creature that they by necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Denzinger 468-69)

And to this clear declaration of a dogma, add the clarifying definition of Pope Eugenius,

“It (Roman Church) firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life . . .and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, **even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, **can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Council of Florence (1441), Pope Eugenius, Decree for the Jacobites, in the Bull Cantata Domino; Denzinger 714)

Now let us turn our attention to the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, which informs catechumins that:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation.”

1. "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body. . .

1. "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. " (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Doubleday:New York, © 1994, United States Catholic Conference, Inc. - Libreria Editrice Vaticana, p. 244 w/Imprimi Potest of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger)

O my! Looks as though the CCC has done a bit of clarification here. And it would appear that this clarification has so modified the dogma as pronounced by Boniface VIII and Eugenius as to now make it possible that people who have never even heard of Jesus Christ or the Roman Catholic Church might be saved. If I had not been told differently by Paul VI and Adam S. Miller, I would have thought this amounted to a reversal of the earlier defined dogma. Clearly, I do not understand how declaring that people outside the RCC who never heard of the RCC or Jesus Christ are not to be considered when accepting as a matter of faith that “Outside the Church there is no salvation.” Maybe I can find a more clear understanding by looking deeper into the CCC.

"1258. “The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of Blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.” (CCC, Op. Cit., p. 352)

Whoa! This seems to be another clarification that appears to run opposite to the earlier definition of the dogma, in particular the words of Pope Eugenius, who declared:

“. . .**no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, **unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Council of Florence (1441), Pope Eugenius, Decree for the Jacobites, in the Bull Cantata Domino; Denzinger 714)

When I was Catholic, I never worried about dogmas and definitions. In fact, I do not recall having heard either word from the priest during his homily or from the catechists in their teaching. Probably a good idea, given that immutable dogmas indeed do mutate, in contradiction of the RCC’s teaching that they are irreformable.

Why does the Roman Catholic Church teach one thing and then deliberately act in contravention of its own teaching? That is a no-brainer. It is because the dogmas, doctrines, rules, practices and disciplines of the Roman Catholic Church all have their origins in the inconstant minds of men. Men change, cultures change, the dogmas and processes of the Roman Catholic Church change. What does not change is the revealed Word of God, as recorded by inspired men in the Holy Scriptures. Seek truth in the Bible, not the imaginative and inconsistent ramblings of the Magisterium.

alright so how should I respond to this, I honestly have no idea.

the parts in bold are the biggest parts of the claim

the idea that they say some who are outside the faith can be saved is an easy refute for me, but this saved by baptism by blood thing throws me off.

thanks for any help.

 

[Anthony_V]

When you are baptized in blood (which is the same as being baptized, as stated), you come into unity with the Church, just as if you were baptized into the Church normally. As Pope Eugenius states, you cannot be saved outside the grace of the Church. If you died for Christ outside the grace of the Church, your actions would not merit. However, by the sacrifice, you are brought into the Church because Baptism is a grace inducing act. All the Pope stated was a paradox that was actually true. A square is not a triangle is not a square.

 

[DavidFilmer]

There is only one Baptism - namely Baptism in water, in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This Baptism is generally considered necessary for salvation.

However, the Church has always taught that the *grace *imparted by water Baptism could be obtained without actually undergoing the rite. Specifically, the Church has recognized Baptism of Desire (where someone intends to be Baptized, but is somehow prevented before dying) and the more specific case of Baptism of Blood (where a Catechumen is martyred before receiving Baptism).

These teachings reflect the mercy of God. God will impart the merits of the Grace we sought, even if we were ultimately unable to obtain them due to circumstances beyond our control.

 

[Byrnesy]

the vatican 2 document nostra aetate (of our age) which deals with the church’s realationship with other religions states that whilst salvation comes from the church alone, those who through no fault of thier own do not know Christ and his message, but follow gods will according to the right dictates of their conscience, may attain salvation in ways known to God alone. I recommend Nostrae aetate to your reading. it is not very long and you can find it on vatican.va
Hope this helps

 

[kepha1]

I googled “That’s the RCC’s position on dogmas. Dogmas, being divinely-revealed truth, are immutable. They cannot be changed because truth cannot change.”

The results were no surprise. 4 sites came up with the same opener, and each of them are maliciously anti-Catholic. The “dogma” of the Church on salvation, which has not changed, is simply misinterpreted, (Edited). Furthermore I would question Pope Eugenius’s statement to the Jacobites as being dogmatic.

Whoever wrote the OP’s quote is ignorant of the Council of Florence, has no regard for premises or context, fails to understand the expanding identity of “Church” over 600 years of development, and fails to understand development.

Here are some resources that will help in understanding
“No Salvation Outside the Church” (a phrase that was coined at a time when there was only one Church!)

NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH: ITS MEANING

 

[paul_c]

I think I can help you here: Let’s go through the guys quotes:

That’s the RCC’s position on dogmas. Dogmas, being divinely-revealed truth, are immutable. They cannot be changed because truth cannot change. They cannot be re-defined, only clarrified or made more precise. They can never be made to say something opposite to what they originally said. Keeping this in mind, look again at the words used by Pope Boniface VIII to define the necessity of membership in the RCC and submission to the pope for salvation:

“With faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this (Church) outside which there is no salvation nor remission of sin . . . Furthermore, we declare, say, define and proclaim to every human creature that they by necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Denzinger 468-69)

Well, there are no disagreements with this. We still believe that salvation comes through the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and that the Pope speaks for the Church on Faith and Morals.

And to this clear declaration of a dogma, add the clarifying definition of Pope Eugenius,

“It (Roman Church) firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life . . .and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Council of Florence (1441), Pope Eugenius, Decree for the Jacobites, in the Bull Cantata Domino; Denzinger 714)

Note the Red word Remained . Pope Eugenius is saying that if you apostacize and LEAVE the church, you can not be saved. This is very consistent with what is below

Now let us turn our attention to the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, which informs catechumins that:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation.”

1. "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body. . .

1. "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. " (Catechism of the Catholic Church, Doubleday:New York, © 1994, United States Catholic Conference, Inc. - Libreria Editrice Vaticana, p. 244 w/Imprimi Potest of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.

O my! Looks as though the CCC has done a bit of clarification here. And it would appear that this clarification has so modified the dogma as pronounced by Boniface VIII and Eugenius as to now make it possible that people who have never even heard of Jesus Christ or the Roman Catholic Church might be saved. If I had not been told differently by Paul VI and Adam S. Miller, I would have thought this amounted to a reversal of the earlier defined dogma. Clearly, I do not understand how declaring that people outside the RCC who never heard of the RCC or Jesus Christ are not to be considered when accepting as a matter of faith that “Outside the Church there is no salvation.” .

Niether Boniface VIII or Eugenius differed from teh above. Boniface noted that salvation was through the Church and Eugenius stated that if you left the church you could not be saved. Neither said that if you never heard of the Church, you couldn’t be saved. In fact, the Church has always understood that some were saved who were not part of the Church. St. Joseph died before the founding of the Church, yet the church recognizes him as a Saint. Same with John the Baptist. Elijah and Enoch are known to be in heaven and Moses was seen in the transfiguration, yet they all died prior to the Church’s founding. The point of the doctrine is that salvation is through the church -both through the sacraments it administers for the Lord and its teaching on faith and morals. If you don’t partake of the sacraments because you don’t know about them, that will not be held against you. BUT if you have been told about them and you choose to deny them or if you sin mortally and are not sacramentally reconciled, you will be condemned. And as St. Paul says in Romans, there is no excuse for sin because everyone has a conscience to guide them, whether they have heard the gospel or not.

 

[paul_c]

Maybe I can find a more clear understanding by looking deeper into the CCC
"1258. “The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of Blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.” (CCC, Op. Cit., p. 352)

Whoa! This seems to be another clarification that appears to run opposite to the earlier definition of the dogma, in particular the words of Pope Eugenius, who declared:

“. . .no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Council of Florence (1441), Pope Eugenius, Decree for the Jacobites, in the Bull Cantata Domino; Denzinger 714)

No. It is completely consistent. Pope Eugenius simply said that if you left the Church, regardless of what you did to enter the church, you can not be saved. He said nothing to counter the fact that if you are martyred for the Faith you will be saved (Baptism of blood).

When I was Catholic, I never worried about dogmas and definitions. In fact, I do not recall having heard either word from the priest during his homily or from the catechists in their teaching. Probably a good idea, given that immutable dogmas indeed do mutate, in contradiction of the RCC’s teaching that they are irreformable.

This probably explains why this person is no longer Catholic - he never understood what the Church taught and why it taught it.

Why does the Roman Catholic Church teach one thing and then deliberately act in contravention of its own teaching? That is a no-brainer. It is because the dogmas, doctrines, rules, practices and disciplines of the Roman Catholic Church all have their origins in the inconstant minds of men. Men change, cultures change, the dogmas and processes of the Roman Catholic Church change. What does not change is the revealed Word of God, as recorded by inspired men in the Holy Scriptures. Seek truth in the Bible, not the imaginative and inconsistent ramblings of the Magisterium.

This person never proved this point. What they did prove is that they didn’t understand the doctrinal points they were critiquing.

 

[Jedimonk]

starts slow clap