Need some help: Embryonic stem cell research argument

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FirstFiveEighth

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As the title says I am having an argument over whether embryonic stem cell research is acceptable or not. It is me vs 8 people. Their arguments are:

-Embryos aren’t the same as adults and should not be valued as such- I said an embryo was no different than a newborn and an adult was no different than an old man
  • it is a religious issue not a scientific one- I said when life begins is a scientific question but whether that life is valuable is a religious or philosophical question.
-Jews don’t think life has value until birth, they believe the child is a part of the mother until that point, and Jeudaism is the granddaddy of all Christianity- I said I am not Jewish and that view is not supported by any science whatsoever
  • religious denominations have flip flopped on this issue within our lifetimes, it is a complicated issue of religion that should not be involved with government policy on research- well I thought this was a bit of a cop out but I did not say so. I said my own faith was always consistent and talked about St. Thomas Aquinas idea of ensoulment based on Aristotle’s idea if formation and how we now know that “formation” really takes place at conception.
So I’d like to know if any of y’all have some points that I overlooked. I’d also like to know how accurate that Jewish belief is and if it has changed basically since the time of Jesus. Thanks for any help.
 
It is not morally right for anyone to decide another human being’s value, unless they are prepared to potentially be devalued and killed as well.

Jews don’t think life has any value until birth? Really? I think Orthodox Jews would disagree. Abortion used to be considered voluntary manslaughter in Israel.
 
Monica83 said:
Jews don’t think life has any value until birth? Really? I think Orthodox Jews would disagree. Abortion used to be considered voluntary manslaughter in Israel.
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According to a knowledgeable Jewish poster on CAF, Jews are free to have an abortion in cases of rape and obligated to have one when the mother’s life is in danger. Go to a more liberal Jewish denomination and that might get freer.

@OP, I’d point out that we all began as an embryo. Try asking them at which point they became them if not at conception.
 
The only circumstance I know of that would endanger a woman’s life before potential viability of the child is ectopic pregnancy. The Catholic Church allows removal of the damaged Fallopian tube in such cases.
 
It depends on the source of the cells. If the source is from embryonic tissue of intentionally aborted fetuses, it is intrinsically evil. If the cells are donor cells harvested from after the natural demise of the embryo, it is no more evil than the donation of organs following the death of a person.
 
Life begins at conception,the soul is infused .Ecclesiastes 11:5 As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb[a] of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.Psalms 139 For thou didst form my inward parts,thou didst knit me together in my mother’s womb.14 I praise thee, for thou art fearful and wonderful.Wonderful are thy works!
Thou knowest me right well;15 my frame was not hidden from thee,when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.16 Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance;
in thy book were written, every one of them,the days that were formed for me,when as yet there was none of them.17 How precious to me are thy thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!
18 If I would count them, they are more than the sand. When I awake, I am still with thee.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/n...ect-different-languages-new-study-says-19915/
Unborn babies can detect different languages, new study says
 
FirstFiveEighth said:
As the title says I am having an argument over whether embryonic stem cell research is acceptable or not. It is me vs 8 people.
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Who are these 8 people? People you know? Strangers on the internet? Other Catholics? Non believers?

What is the context of this “argument”? Internet forum, Facebook page, around the table at a coffee shop? At school?

How old are these people in question?

What is your background knowledge? You don’t seems equipped to answer them so what Church documents have you read on the subject?
 
Here is the quotation about Jewish beliefs I was given:

“Jewish law does not share the belief common among abortion opponents that life begins at conception, nor does it legally consider the fetus to be a full person deserving of protections equal those accorded to human beings. In Jewish law, a fetus attains the status of a full person only at birth. Sources in the Talmud indicate that prior to 40 days of gestation, the fetus has an even more limited legal status, with one Talmudic authority (Yevamot 69b) asserting that prior to 40 days the fetus is “mere water.” Elsewhere, the Talmud indicates that the ancient rabbis regarded a fetus as part of its mother throughout the pregnancy, dependent fully on her for its life — a view that echoes the position that women should be free to make decisions concerning their own bodies.”

Reads like a piece of argument from one of those groups that tries to say God is perfectly ok with abortion but I don’t know for sure because a link was not provided.
 
They are strangers on the internet, though I have interacted with them for years over various topics. It is actually a sports board, the discussion came up as a non sports topic on an article about how particular political “isle” was actually promoting anti-scientific policies. To which someone added “remember when Bush was really anti-scientific and banned embryonic stem cell research” which kicked it off. They are all older than I am, basically 35-80. All are either protestants/evangelicals or atheists. Don’t know what you mean by my background knowledge. My knowledge is what I know about what the Church teaches, a few encyclicals like humanae vitae, a high school level knowledge of biology, and what I have read from various apologetics authors.

They now dispute that an embryo is in fact a separate life form from the mother. No real argument was given, just a “nope, not true, you don’t have biology training and don’t know what you are talking about”. Also a “yeah, just like a seed is a tree and a lava is a fly and an egg is a chicken” sarcastically thrown in. So I am not really sure how to address that other than ask them to explain their position.
 
The earliest Christians were opposed to abortions.


And I believe Orthodox Jews do not condone abortion for convenience which is what the overwhelming majority of abortions are for.

Comparing preborn human beings to chicken eggs is a common dehumanizing tactic. Well, there IS a chick in the egg right? With chicken DNA? It’s just a chicken in a different stage of development.
 
Monica83 said:
Comparing preborn human beings to chicken eggs is a common dehumanizing tactic. Well, there IS a chick in the egg right? With chicken DNA? It’s just a chicken in a different stage of development.
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Agreed. The seed is an individual of the adult tower’s species. A more apt relation for them would be an embryo is not an adult.
 
I would suggest you read/listen to Trent Horn’s work. He presents a rational pro-life position without every mentioning religion (he is a well know Catholic speaker and author).
 
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