Need some help with papal infallibility

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Quite frankly your friend is correct in calling out the doctrine of papal infallibility, although he is completely incorrect in its impact. If you are confused about papal infallibility, its because there is plenty of be confused about. It uses a definition of “infallible” that is completely meaningless and is applied anachronistically (after the fact) and inconsistently to justify what current practice or doctrine says. If doctrine changes, we just go back and say well the Pope wasn’t speaking ex cathedra, so papal infallibility doesn’t apply. The inevitable result is confusion. The word “infallible” means incapable of making error, or always effective or correct. If we pick and choose when someone is infallible then they aren’t infallible. Luckily we don’t have to do so. God’s word IS in fact infallible, all the time.
 
With all due respect, since you have such a problem with the doctrine of infallibility, I don’t think you’re the correct person to give OP advice about it. This is Catholic Answers Forum and the beliefs of Catholics should be respected. The OP needs help dealing with a difficult situation, not more arguments against doctrines of the Catholic Faith.
 
I’m sorry you’re in such a tough position. But God is calling you home to His church. That is amazing, but it also opens you up to intense persecution. You really need to ignore your friend and don’t enter into debate with him. Be strong and keep pursuing your study of the Catholic Church. Read, talk to your local priest, and start attending Mass. And keep PRAYING! God would not be leading you on this journey to Rome without a good reason. Padre Pio, please protect @hmikell7…intercede for him to have courage and wisdom in this situation. Amen.
 
If doctrine changes, we just go back and say well the Pope wasn’t speaking ex cathedra, so papal infallibility doesn’t apply.
I assume you have an example of a clearly held doctrine that was taught and changed…
 
So even confronted with the very words of Christ, and with no evidence to back up his claims, he holds fast to his beliefs, and refuses to acknowledge that any other view could possibly be correct.
And there’s your answer right there. If he looks at Matthew 16:18 (“on this rock I will build my church”) and still claims that Jesus doesn’t like churches, then you know he’s holding to a belief that has little truth to it, and he does not wish to budge. So you smile, wish him well, and move on to another topic.
Edit: sorry for the rant, I’m still worked up and very shaken by the whole thing, and this response was more me thinking through it myself than anything else.
No problems. 👍

Somehow (and I might be very off base here), I suspect that there might be more to the story, though? I mean, if my buddies and I were discussing religion and we disagreed, we’d argue and then walk away. However, if there’s more to the relationship than just “buddies” or “roomies”, then this discussion about religion takes on a whole different tenor. So, I’m thinking, maybe that’s why there’s such passion in this discussion between you and him? 🤔
 
If he’s a protestant and suggesting that papal infallibility is flawed, then ask him why he accepts the Bible to be the written Word of God. Ask how he believes that and why he does. Ask how he knows it to be true.

Ultimately, it would have to, by reason, go back to the Holy Spirit working through the bishops to discern which books were God-breathed and which weren’t. This isn’t necessarily “ex cathedra,” but it is dogmatic.
 
If you are confused about papal infallibility, its because there is plenty of be confused about.
I agree. You do seem plenty confused about ‘infallibility’.

First off, you use it as if it applied to a person. It doesn’t. It applies to statements of faith and morals. In a casual sense, when people talk about it, they might say “the pope is infallible when…” or “the pope and the bishops are infallible when…”, but that’s not the way the Church talks about infallibility. Rather, the Church uses the term to refer to the subject matter: “the pope teaches infallibly when…”. See the distinction? It’s not the man, but rather the teachings that can take on the tenor of infallibility.
It uses a definition of “infallible” that is completely meaningless and is applied anachronistically (after the fact)
OK… take a deep breath and think for a minute:
  • if the definition of an infallible teaching includes prerequisites about what conditions must be present for a teaching to be able to be declared infallible
  • and if a pope consciously intends to – and does! – meet these prerequisites in the way he declares a teaching
  • and if a teaching cannot be declared ‘infallible’ before it’s actually taught
… then there’s no way to characterize a teaching until after it’s been taught! Moreover, we look at the intent of the person proclaiming the teaching and recognize that it was his intent, prior to proclaiming it, to make it an infallible teaching! So… no: not ‘meaningless’ and not ‘anachronistic’. 🤷‍♂️
If doctrine changes
Doctrine doesn’t change. When it develops, it develops along the lines of the existing expressions of it, in order to clarify what the doctrine means.
we just go back and say well the Pope wasn’t speaking ex cathedra, so papal infallibility doesn’t apply.
Umm… has anyone from the hierarchy of the Church ever done this? I think you’re making this up…
The inevitable result is confusion.
Welcome to the wonderful world of religion, where folks who don’t want to follow a set of teachings make up their own rules and attempt to rationalize them. 😉
The word “infallible” means incapable of making error, or always effective or correct.
It’s funny: it looks like you’re using the definition that comes up when you Google “infallible definition”. But, if you do Google it, then there’s a third definition – which you’re ignoring here. That third definition is “(in the Roman Catholic Church) credited with papal infallibility”. So, yeah… use that third definition, not the first two. You’ll see that your contradictions fall away. 😉
If we pick and choose when someone is infallible then they aren’t infallible.
Again: not about a person, but about teachings. And, to your point, we can absolutely make the claim that “the teachings of the Church on faith and morals are always infallible”. So, there are no problems on that front, either. 👍
 
It’s very difficult to just not engage with him. It’s not like this is something we talk about and it turns into an argument. More like I’ll be reading a certain book, or I’ll be in my room praying the rosary, or something of that sort and he’ll walk in and just start lashing out about it.

I try to tell him I’m not interested in discussing it with him, but when I do that he just starts screaming louder and gets even more aggressive until I have little choice but to engage with him.

It’s not a question of converting him, right now it’s a question of my own faith surviving his attacks.
I think rather than arguing the point, you and your roommate should have a frank discussion about him acting like an intolerant [insert cuss-word] and that such behavior is almost certainly a violation of the contractual agreement you both entered into to live there. If no such agreement exists, it’s still an unambiguous violation of good manners and if it doesn’t stop, you two will have to end your living arrangement.
 
Lease locked for 10 more months and don’t have any grounds for terminating without paying a ton of money in fees that I don’t have.

@Vonsalza
 
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Umm yeah pretty far off base there, lol. We’re just roommates because the area we live in is too expensive for either of us to afford by ourselves. As a result of living together for so long now, we’re also best friends. Nothing more than that though.

The thing is that we’re both aspiring law school students so neither one of us can ever stand to loose an argument. Probably has a lot to do with how passionate the arguments can get. We just argue until we’re blue in the face
 
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hmikell7
My roommate has been extremely hostile towards the Catholic faith ever since I started conversion more than 5 months ago (despite the fact that he’s the one that got me to look into the Church to begin with). Up until now I like to think I’ve held my own against him in all of our arguments.
Lately he’s begun using papal infallibility to attack the Church. Saying that “if papal infallibility fails as a doctrine, then the entire faith falls apart” and that it is one of the “foundation blocks” of the faith. Personally I think it’s a ridiculous statement to say that somehow even if the Church did get papal infallibility wrong that it somehow means that everything else the Church has ever taught is wrong. I also don’t really consider it to be one of the “foundation blocks” of the faith either.
That being said, I was hoping to get some help on how to combat him on this:
When is the pope infallible? I know it’s on matters of dogma, but I was hoping to get some hypothetical examples of what might be considered infallible. . . . .
.

hmikell7. Before you do anything be sure you have a good grasp of the concept of infallibility (you probably already do, but lurkers here may not so I will expound).

Remember that “infallibility” is a negative charism. It protects the person who has that charism against saying something wrong.

It does not necessarily mean a correct answer will be given. Let me give an example . . .

Karl Keating used to use a math test example. He would ask . . . . “If there were fifty questions on the test and the Pope was infallible in math, what is the lowest score the Pope could get and still be infallible?"

The answer is . . . . a score of zero!

Why? (or "How?)

Because if the Pope left all the answers blank, he’d get a zero on the test but he still didn’t ANSWER any of the questions “wrong”.

.

Just a quick note about “inspiration” too (to protect from confusion down the road).

“Inspiration” (such as the Scripture writers had for example) is a positive charism.

Inspired writers are infallible and MORE. They are saying what God wants said (in their own words to be sure, with their own personality, etc.).
 
Now that you have “infallible” down (at a level that the discussion can commence) . . .

. . . . Then the next step is to make sure your roommate affirms the CONCEPT of infallibility.

Unless you tell me otherwise, I am going to assume your roommate is a Bible Christian and affirms Sacred Scripture.

Ask him if he affirms someone can teach infallibly (forget about or “prescind from” the whole “Pope” aspect for now).

Ask him if there is ANYBODY who whatever (at least in a certain context) binds on earth will be bound in Heaven?

I’ll stay put on this thread for a few days and if you are developing this with him, please get back to me and we can take this another step.

Hope this helps.

God bless.

Cathoholic
 
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Umm yeah pretty far off base there, lol.
OK. 👍 From the description of him as ‘sweet’, and from the passion of the discussions, it seemed that there might be more to the relationship. All good…!
The thing is that we’re both aspiring law school students so neither one of us can ever stand to loose an argument. Probably has a lot to do with how passionate the arguments can get. We just argue until we’re blue in the face
LOL! Well, then… you’ve come to the right place, here! 🤣
 
hmikell7 to “roomie” . . . .

“Consider Luke 10 for a moment” . . . .
LUKE 10:1-2, 16 1 After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come. 2 And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; pray therefore the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest. . . . 16 "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
.

hmikell7. . . .

“Do you think Jesus sent these guys out teaching ERROR?
Or do you think He gave them protective graces in THIS CASE?”

.

Roomie . . .

“Well yeah Jesus protected them. But that is HERE! That doesn’t mean that this continues until today.

And that doesn’t mean Peter has anything SPECIAL in the way of protection.

.

hmikell7 to roomie. . . .

“I am not attempting to get you to affirm this happens “today” (yet).
I just want you to assert this doctrinal protection in PRINCIPLE.
And I am also not saying St. Peter has anything special over the Seventy here (yet)”

(Once he does, make sure you repeat what he said to him so it fixes it in his mind. You will use HIS words later in the discussion back to him).
 
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You need a new roommate. Are there no Roman Catholic options?
As far as best friends, now about the Blessed Virgin? She’s always taking on new friends (friends who are also her children, of course).
 
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