Need the Catholic interpretation of Rom. 1:17

[ReturningToRome]

Hi. I’m looking for some understanding on Romans 1:17 (St. Paul was referring to Habakkuk 2:4), particularly “The just shall live by faith.” This might be called Luther’s proof text for his reformational doctrine of justification by faith alone. Thanks!

 

[jlhargus]

Hi. I’m looking for some understanding on Romans 1:17 (St. Paul was referring to Habakkuk 2:4), particularly “The just shall live by faith.” This might be called Luther’s proof text for his reformational doctrine of justification by faith alone. Thanks!

JL: First James tells us FAITH ALONE is DEAD FAITH. Second how does one LIVE by faith, except by DOING? Feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc… Third even if I have FAITH to move mountains and have not CAIRITY, I am nothing. Yes we LIVE by FAITH working in CHIRITY, otherwise we are living in DEAD FAITH, which cannot SAVE. Welcome back, I will pray for you.

 

[Apollos]

Hi. I’m looking for some understanding on Romans 1:17 (St. Paul was referring to Habakkuk 2:4), particularly “The just shall live by faith.” This might be called Luther’s proof text for his reformational doctrine of justification by faith alone. Thanks!

The best explanation of the Catholic doctrine on justification and faith is still the Council of Trent’s Decree on Justification, available online at history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html.

Another explanation comes from Thomas Aquinas’ commentary on Romans, linked at aquinas.avemaria.edu/Commentaries.asp. The relevant section in the rather large pdf file is pages 59-60, paragraphs 104-108. He says that *lives by faith *means lives by the life of grace. He adds that faith involves willed assent with certitude to that which is not seen; discusses whether and in what way faith is a virtue; its relationship with charity; and the way in which one lives by faith.

 

[Advocatus_Fidei]

There is no conflict Catholics believe in the necessity of faith.

Read this:

home.inreach.com/bstanley/works.htm

 

[Carlan]

Hi. I’m looking for some understanding on Romans 1:17 (St. Paul was referring to Habakkuk 2:4), particularly “The just shall live by faith.” This might be called Luther’s proof text for his reformational doctrine of justification by faith alone. Thanks!

Welcome Returning,
Romans 1: 17 " The upright man finds life through faith".
God offers us the gift of faith through Jesus. Faith makes Jesus death on the cross effective in man. Faith is necessary to ensure this.
By taking up our own cross daily and following the way of Jesus and by keeping true to all he has commanded of us.Peace, Carlan

 

[Scoobyshme]

Hi. I’m looking for some understanding on Romans 1:17 (St. Paul was referring to Habakkuk 2:4), particularly “The just shall live by faith.” This might be called Luther’s proof text for his reformational doctrine of justification by faith alone. Thanks!

The Catholic Church has no problem with the notion that we are “saved by faith.” We are. Luther’s problem was that he inserted the word “alone” in that notion. He wanted it to say we are “saved by faith ALONE.” Nowhere is that notion in the Bible. Furthermore, the Catholic Church says the only “alone” we are saved by is God’s Grace, i.e., Sola Gratia.

Works is a necessary part of salvific works, and require God’s grace. So, any good works that we do accomplish through our faith, is due to God’s grace, not our worthiness. See James 2 where James says that faith WITHOUT works is dead (useless), and Matt. 25 where Jesus will judge everyone based on works (I was hungry, and you gave me to eat, etc.).

 

[JonNC]

Hi. I’m looking for some understanding on Romans 1:17 (St. Paul was referring to Habakkuk 2:4), particularly “The just shall live by faith.” This might be called Luther’s proof text for his reformational doctrine of justification by faith alone. Thanks!

Remember, RTR, that Justification by Faith Alone as we Lutherans view it is not an exclusion of good works by any stretch of the imagination, but an understanding that we come to Justification only by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone.
The regenerate have an obligation to obey Christ’s commands, not because our efforts gain us salvation directly (Christ’s works do that), but because of the new obedience. In this way, James is correct that faith that lacks works is clearly dead, just as a dead tree produces no fruit. So when jlhargus says, "Yes we LIVE by FAITH working in CHIRITY, otherwise we are living in DEAD FAITH, which cannot SAVE", we can agree, knowing that faith comes to us by grace, then, in our sanctification, we respond by doing the good works the Holy Spirit prepares for us to do.

I would encourage you to read the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Jon

 

[guanophore]

Hi. I’m looking for some understanding on Romans 1:17 (St. Paul was referring to Habakkuk 2:4), particularly “The just shall live by faith.” This might be called Luther’s proof text for his reformational doctrine of justification by faith alone. Thanks!

Another way to look at this, consistent with what has already been posted on this thread. is that the “just” are those who are in a state of grace. They have already been justified by grace,through faith. When a person is in a state of grace, they are able to work out their salvation with fear and trembling because God is at work within them to will and to do his good pleasure. By faith, they can do all the things that the “cloud of witnesses” did in Heb. 11!

I think Jn. explains this well, living in a state of grace, following HIs commandments, because they are not burdensome. For the “just” (one who has been put in right relationship with God), as has been noted, living the upright life is an outgrowth of what is within.

 

[ReturningToRome]

Thank you, all, for your help. You’ve given me a lot to consider.

 

[KathleenGee]

I had a hard economic year last year…went outside to this garden…this Scripture quote came to mind…I am not looking at a Bible right now…‘If you would have faith the size of a mustard seed, you could move a mountain’…

Life is hard. When I read Romans 1:17 what I am reading is to live in faith and that is hope realized…we must believe that the Lord truly loves each one of us…and when things become overbearing, we must ask the Lord to make our burden light, and to conquer the current darkness into light, using our faith in Him.

Faith is depending on God for your sustenance and not man. ‘Nothing is impossible with God’.

 

[ReturningToRome]

I had a hard economic year last year…went outside to this garden…this Scripture quote came to mind…I am not looking at a Bible right now…‘If you would have faith the size of a mustard seed, you could move a mountain’…

Life is hard. When I read Romans 1:17 what I am reading is to live in faith and that is hope realized…we must believe that the Lord truly loves each one of us…and when things become overbearing, we must ask the Lord to make our burden light, and to conquer the current darkness into light, using our faith in Him.

Faith is depending on God for your sustenance and not man. ‘Nothing is impossible with God’.

Thankyou, Kathleen, for reminding me of God’s great love!

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you…that is how I essentially understand as a Catholic, Rom. 1:17.

The basic message of God is love.

 

[Genesis315]

God promises if we repent and obey the commandments and live a life of charity as as taught by Our Lord Jesus Christ, then we will be saved. We can’t prove this empirically, all we have is God’s promise. To live by faith is to do what God commands knowing it is for the best, not because we can see the end results, but because God promises it to be so.

Obviously living by faith necessitates doing the will of the Father–ie good works.

 

[rev_kevin]

FAITH is a word with many meanings. It can mean faithfulness (Matthew 24:25). It can mean absolute trust, as shown by some of the people who came to Jesus for healing (Luke 7:2-10). It can mean confident hope (Hebrews 11:1). Or as James points out, it can even mean a barren belief that does not result in good deeds (James 2:14-26). What does Paul mean when, in Romans, he speaks of “saving faith?”
We must be very careful to understand faith as Paul uses the word because he ties faith so closely to salvation. It is not something we must do in order to earn salvation–if that were true, then faith would be just one more deed, and Paul clearly states that human deeds can never save us (Galatians 2:16). Instead, faith is a gift God gives us because he is saving us (Ephesians 2:8). It is God’s grace, not our faith, that saves us. In his mercy, however, when he saves us, he gives us faith–a relationship with his Son that helps us become like him. Through faith he gives us, her carries us from death into life (John 5:24).
Even in OT times, grace, not deeds, was the basis of salvation. As Hebrews points out, "it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins’ (10:4). God intended for his people to look beyond the animal sacrifices to him, but all too often they instead put their confidence in fulfilling the requirements of the law–that is, performing the required sacrifices. When Jesus triumphed over death, he cancelled the charges against us and opened the way to the Father (Colossians 2:12-15). Because he is merciful, he offers us faith.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

FAITH is a word with many meanings. It can mean faithfulness (Matthew 24:25). It can mean absolute trust, as shown by some of the people who came to Jesus for healing (Luke 7:2-10). It can mean confident hope (Hebrews 11:1). Or as James points out, it can even mean a barren belief that does not result in good deeds (James 2:14-26). What does Paul mean when, in Romans, he speaks of “saving faith?”
We must be very careful to understand faith as Paul uses the word because he ties faith so closely to salvation. It is not something we must do in order to earn salvation–if that were true, then faith would be just one more deed, and Paul clearly states that human deeds can never save us (Galatians 2:16). Instead, faith is a gift God gives us because he is saving us (Ephesians 2:8). It is God’s grace, not our faith, that saves us. In his mercy, however, when he saves us, he gives us faith–a relationship with his Son that helps us become like him. Through faith he gives us, her carries us from death into life (John 5:24).
Even in OT times, grace, not deeds, was the basis of salvation. As Hebrews points out, "it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins’ (10:4). God intended for his people to look beyond the animal sacrifices to him, but all too often they instead put their confidence in fulfilling the requirements of the law–that is, performing the required sacrifices. When Jesus triumphed over death, he cancelled the charges against us and opened the way to the Father (Colossians 2:12-15). Because he is merciful, he offers us faith.

Cite your stuff rev.

I would cite it for you but the site you cut and pasted it from is far from kind towards Catholicism (to put it nicely ) seeing as it lumps Catholicism with JW’s and Muslims. I would prefer that trash not being posted by me

God bless you

 

[rev_kevin]

Cite your stuff rev.

I would cite it for you but the site you cut and pasted it from is far from kind towards Catholicism (to put it nicely ) seeing as it lumps Catholicism with JW’s and Muslims. I would prefer that trash not being posted by me

God bless you

Sorry you feel that way. I did not get it from any site as you claim I did. I got it from the Life Application Study Bible, New Living Translation, Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. Wheaton , Illinois. 60189. Copyright 1996.
Tell me what is the problem with it? What part do you disagree with? That it CAN mean faithfulness, That it CAN mean absolute trust. That it CAN mean confident hope or can it be that as James points out in James 2:14-26 it CAN even mean a barren belief that does not result in good deeds where he talks about Faith without Good Deeds Is Dead. Or do you have a problem with Paul using the word because he ties Faith closely to Salvation. Could it be that human deeds can never save us that you don’t like. Could it be the part that Faith is a gift God gives us because he is saving us. Could it be the part where it says it is God’s grace, not Faith, that saves us. Could it be that when he saves us he gives us Faith. Or that through the Faith He gives us, He carries us from death into life? Now could it be the OT part.
Tell me exactly what part of this trash you don’t want posted by you?
All this is straight from the Bible and I have given you the books, chapters and verses.

 

[campeador]

rev kevin,

I think the point is, don’t plagiarize. If you copied and pasted from some other source, give them some credit.

Unless you’re suggesting these are your words…

google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22Faith+is+a+word+with+many+meanings.+It+can+mean+faithfulness.%22&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

 

[wmscott]

Remember, RTR, that Justification by Faith Alone as we Lutherans view it is not an exclusion of good works by any stretch of the imagination, but an understanding that we come to Justification only by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone.
The regenerate have an obligation to obey Christ’s commands, not because our efforts gain us salvation directly (Christ’s works do that), but because of the new obedience. In this way, James is correct that faith that lacks works is clearly dead, just as a dead tree produces no fruit. So when jlhargus says, "Yes we LIVE by FAITH working in CHIRITY, otherwise we are living in DEAD FAITH, which cannot SAVE", we can agree, knowing that faith comes to us by grace, then, in our sanctification, we respond by doing the good works the Holy Spirit prepares for us to do.

I would encourage you to read the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Jon

From the Haydocks Catholic Bible commentary (LINK)

Ver. 17. For the justice of God. He does not here mean that justice, by which God is just in himself, but that justice, or sanctification, which he communicates to men, and by which they are justified and sanctified. — From faith to faith. That is, by faith, and an increase in faith, inasmuch as, by increasing in faith, we advance in virtues; as it is written, (Habacuc ii. 4.) the just man liveth by faith; including the love of God, hope, and other virtues. (Witham)

Jon I think this is saying the same thing you are, just in a differing way. Your thoughts. Peace

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Tell me what is the problem with it?

You plagiarized it.

Or do you have a problem with Paul using the word because he ties Faith closely to Salvation.

No problems with Paul. If you’re going to cut and paste, cite your source.

Tell me exactly what part of this trash you don’t want posted by you?

Rev you are prone to these knee jerk reactions on these forums. Go back and read my post. The ‘trash’ I was referring to was the web-site your cut and paste can be found at. If you go back and read it you will see that I said that I would post the site but I prefer that “trash” not be posted by me

God bless you

 

[guanophore]

Sorry you feel that way. I did not get it from any site as you claim I did. I got it from the Life Application Study Bible, New Living Translation, Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. Wheaton , Illinois. 60189. Copyright 1996.
Tell me what is the problem with it? What part do you disagree with? That it CAN mean faithfulness, That it CAN mean absolute trust. That it CAN mean confident hope or can it be that as James points out in James 2:14-26 it CAN even mean a barren belief that does not result in good deeds where he talks about Faith without Good Deeds Is Dead. Or do you have a problem with Paul using the word because he ties Faith closely to Salvation. Could it be that human deeds can never save us that you don’t like. Could it be the part that Faith is a gift God gives us because he is saving us. Could it be the part where it says it is God’s grace, not Faith, that saves us. Could it be that when he saves us he gives us Faith. Or that through the Faith He gives us, He carries us from death into life? Now could it be the OT part.
Tell me exactly what part of this trash you don’t want posted by you?
All this is straight from the Bible and I have given you the books, chapters and verses.

I thought it was a great post, Rev, and I could not find anything to disagree about.