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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Wow Church simply amazing…
Thanks I will post what he replies.
Thanks I will post what he replies.
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Church_Militant
Guest
is alive and active not dead pages in a book…Able to divide between soul and spirit, bone and marrow it judges the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Okay… this is fine, except what does John 1:say?
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: He was in the beginning with God;
3: all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
4: In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5: The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. …
14: And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. What does St. John tell us is the Word? So what is sharper than any two edged sword?
He’s quoted Romans 10:17 Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ. It’s not the Bible per se that brings faith…it’s the preaching of Christ and Him crucified. (Just FYI: A good side case here can be made for Catholic crucifixes. We go out of our way to preach Christ crucified. See 1st Corinthians 2:1-5.)
As a matter of fact…as I showed in my post above…it is not. Here he’s twisting the living daylights out of the plain sense of the text of 2nd Peter 1:20. I won’t even answer this except to offer what the notes say in my Douay-Rheims Bible.
Catholics would not argue with this. Why else is there a plenary indulgence offered for reading the Bible for 30 minutes as spiritual reading and then going to confession and communion? That tells you just how important reading the Bible is to the Catholic Church.
The only real problem here is that if you ask him, he doesn’t mean the same thing with this that we do. His last line is very instructive. At first glance, it looks like it’s okay, but what he is actually espousing here is his errant belief in private revelation of meanings in the Bible and what he’s really saying is “This is how I came to the beliefs that I have, and they are right and yours are wrong.” I can show you a really good example of this from a thread my buddy The Black Knight opened over on Sean Hannity’s religion forum entitled Baptism~Necessary or Not? There are 351 posts on that thread, but you only have to read about the first page or so to see some great examples of this very kind of theological twisted interpretation of passages of scripture. Blackie has since dropped out of the thread because (as he told me privately) he can’t reason with people whose feet don’t seem to touch the ground. Meaning that their interps are so twisted and far afield from what the plain sense of the passages say that there’s just no point in further discussion with them. You see the same sort of stuff at some of the anti-Catholic forums on the net.
Roman_Catholic, I hope I’ve been of some help. I think you may be wasting your time to respond to him, but ya just never know what the Holy Spirit’s going to use with someone like that. So…in this particular point, your FIL is right. You can and should pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you as to whether to answer or not, and then to guide you as to what to include.
As always, if you need any help at all, you know where to find me.
Pax tecum,
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dal11
Guest
Have you ever explained to him, it was the Catholic church who put the bible together in the first place. Who better to help with interpreting it then the ones who gave it to us.
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Liberian
Guest
Roman Catholic,
Wow! That’s quite the screed. Church Militant has already gone over it, but I feel called (or maybe it’s my innate cussedness) to go over part of it at least.
The Magisterium of the Catholic Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, of course.
I should point out that there is nothing wrong with personal interpretations as long as they do not contradict Catholic teachings. God has said, through the teaching office of the Church, that certain things are true. Any interpretation that contradicts what God has said is true is by definition in error.
I have yet to see a personal love letter that includes long genealogies, commandments to exterminate various tribes, and laws governing all aspects of life. I appreciate the sentiment, but the statement is simply ridiculous.
I think here he is referring to II Peter 3:16, about some things in Paul’s letters being hard to understand. Again, while the sentiment that “this scripture is simple” sounds nice, he is pretty flatly contradicting what the Bible actually says here.
The interesting part of this quote is that people will apply it to themselves and deny that it applies to the Magisterium of the Church. I don’t mind people claiming that the Spirit will guide them into all truth–I claim it myself–but I do mind when they claim that the Spirit will not guide somebody else into all truth. I find that the Spirit’s usual method of guiding me into all truth is to sit me down with the Bible, the Catechism or an encyclical.
By all means study for yourself, but also be guided by what we already know is true. If somebody studies mathematics and concludes that two plus two equals five, we know he has made a mistake somewhere, no matter how beautiful and inspired his theorems may be.
And the Catholic Church is not just “any man.” She is the Bride of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth. It is disheartening how many people will say that “God will show you” and will then complain when God shows you something different from what they wanted Him to show you.
- Liberian
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VociMike
Guest
Jesus is Truth. He is not a pillar and foundation of Himself. That would make no sense. It is just an evasion.
How about the Church that has existed since Pentecost? History is not silent on this issue, though most Protestants want to believe (indeed, must believe) that it (history) is silent on this issue. There is no question, to those who evaluate the evidence in an unbiased way, that the Catholic Church goes back to the beginning of Christianity.
You could also compile a list of his biggest claimed falsehoods that the Catholic Church teaches, and point out that the Early Church Fathers never spoke out against any of them. No ECF ever condemns any of the foundational Catholic teachings as heretical. How can that be, if the ECFs weren’t Catholic? How can that be, if the ECFs were really closet Protestants, as many Protestants wish to believe?
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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Wow he came back and really had nothing to say. Nice job church
I have been fighting with this guy for 2 years but it took you three paragraphs to put him out of words, this is what he replied with.
Thanks again
I have been fighting with this guy for 2 years but it took you three paragraphs to put him out of words, this is what he replied with.
If you know this guy this is the shortest thing he has ever written, to me this letter reeks of frustration knowing that now that sola scriptura has been taken out from under him, he has not a leg to stand on.
Thanks again
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VociMike
Guest
Wow he came back and really had nothing to say. Nice job church
I have been fighting with this guy for 2 years but it took you three paragraphs to put him out of words, this is what he replied with.
To which I would reply, we don’t think we possess eternal life by study. We possess eternal life by Christ. We study to better know Him, to better love Him, to better conform our own wills to His will, to better unite with Him.
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jmcrae
Guest
A religion is a way of having a relationship with God. If you do not have a religion (a religion is simply an organized system of thinking about God and being present with God - it provides us with places to go, people to interact with, ways of communicating with God, such as prayer and worship) then you do not have a relationship with God.
While it is certainly possible to go through the motions of a religion without actually having a relationship with God, it is impossible to have a living and vital relationship with God without a religion.
This is true. That’s why the way we relate to God is through a religion. We relate to other people much more casually. Even the rituals that we use to interact with royalty and with leaders of nations are not good enough for God. God requires our whole life, and that means that we need to structure our lives according to His will - that life structure that God gives us is called “religion.”
You have no way of knowing what someone is thinking unless you ask them. It is rather arrogant to tell someone what he is thinking.
Even so - no, the reason we study the things of God is the same reason that a lover studies the ways of his beloved - he wants to know what she does, where she goes, and who her friends are so that he can share her interests, be where she is, and meet her friends. Those who love God study the ways of God.
In Psalm 1 we are told, “Blessed is the man who walketh not in the counsel of the wicked, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scorner, But his delight is in the law of the Lord, **and in his law doth he meditate both day and night. **”
To be a student of God’s law brings many blessings, according to this Psalm.
He was speaking to those particular Pharisees and Saducees who had substituted a human religion in place of the Divine religion, and who were doing according to their personal interpretations and what seemed “reasonable” to them, rather than according to God’s actual laws.
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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
He wrote again and said that we sounded hostile. I told him that we did not intend to and that we aimed merely to enlighten.
I did however put in there that he needed to accept what his daughter has become in christ.
Still none the less me and my fiance both concluded that he will never be able to accept her Catholic faith and we both have agreed that if that is the case that we are willing to move on with our lives without him. I told him it was heart breaking to have come to this but this is where the situation is at. I told him the choice was his.
thanks again for everyones help.
I did however put in there that he needed to accept what his daughter has become in christ.
Still none the less me and my fiance both concluded that he will never be able to accept her Catholic faith and we both have agreed that if that is the case that we are willing to move on with our lives without him. I told him it was heart breaking to have come to this but this is where the situation is at. I told him the choice was his.
thanks again for everyones help.
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Philthy
Guest
What a second there partner! Your gonna cut off communication with your FIL??? I dont think anyone meant to lead you down that road. Love is patient, love is kind, love is gentle etc. This is your father in law, future grandfather of any children you may have and you need to find unity to whatever degree you can find it. Trust me on this little detail - my 3 children have never met there maternal grandfather over hostilities between him and my wife. You dont want that over this. Christ certainly doesnt want you two arguing theology.
This may sound odd, but have you thanked him for his concern for the both of you? At the very least, be grateful that he cares so much about Faith to make such an effort. There is nothing wrong with letting him know that you are doing what you believe Jesus wants you to do and that you have to defer to what you believe to be God’s Will in your life. You are grateful(you really should be unless you doubt his motives) for all his concern and regret the discomfort this has caused him but you confess Jesus as your Savior and believe in your heart, with God as judge, that this is what He has called you to do…
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SemperJase
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Church_Militant
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A wise, well said, and compassionate response. I couldn’t’ve said it better myself.
It’s curious that he doesn’t seem to inquire after your health or how things are going with you guys, yet loads you with a-C propaganda. That just bothers me.
Always respond with facts. We have nothing to fear from truth and hide nothing.
One thing that n-Cs often try to prod us Catholics with is that they think that we don’t read, study, or know our Bible, and many Catholics think they don’t know it either, but it’s just simply not true. A faithful Catholic will know the Bible better (in most cases) than an equally faithful n-C. The only difference is being able to reel off chapter and verse references, but most times it’s just some selected verses (usually “the plan of salvation”) and the Catholic will actually know what’s in the Bible better than the n-C. I have had that experience myself.
The key is to simply obey the New Testament and the church. The New Testament says, “15 Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” (2nd Timothy 2) Notice that it doesn’t specify what to study, and in context of other passages of scripture that means that we include Sacred Tradition in our knowledge so that we can have the assurance that we are reading the same meanings in scripture that the early church did, since they were discipled by the apostles anyway. We include the teachings of the Magisterium as the church authority, which, like the CCC so beautifully illustrates, offers us abundant references on any given topic to assist our understanding.
A Catholic who does these things will never be much perplexed by a-C propaganda, and it’s well worth the time it takes over the course of one’s life.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,
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RCCDefender
Guest
This maybe water under the bridge, as I am late in coming to this particular thread, but I wanted to note that in the passage he provided from John:
Jesus is sending the Holy Spirit to His apostles to guide the Church into all truth, not individual members. I cringe every time I hear someone use this verse as some kind of proof text that they are right because the feel they are led by the Holy Spirit in their private interpretation.
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jmcrae
Guest
The question was also asked, “For whom was the Bible written?” The assumed answer is that the Bible was written for everyone, but actually that’s not true.
The original documents that ultimately became our Bible were not intended for general reading at home alone - they were directed to specific people. The documents of the Old Testament were written for priests, music leaders, and those whose job it was to teach the faith to others. The documents of the New Testament were originally written to and for the Bishops of the Early Church.
Even if they had had the printing press in 1400 BC, when Moses began to write down the first words of the Book of Genesis, Moses would not have used it. The Pentateuch was not originally written for the general population; it was written for Joshua and Aaron, and their successors. It was always intended to be read out to the people within the context of the service of worship, together with an explanation of its meaning.
Even today, reading the Scriptures at home is intended to be something we do in addition to attending services of worship where we hear them read out and explained. Reading alone at home should never be considered an adequate substitute for particpating with the worshipping community.
The original documents that ultimately became our Bible were not intended for general reading at home alone - they were directed to specific people. The documents of the Old Testament were written for priests, music leaders, and those whose job it was to teach the faith to others. The documents of the New Testament were originally written to and for the Bishops of the Early Church.
Even if they had had the printing press in 1400 BC, when Moses began to write down the first words of the Book of Genesis, Moses would not have used it. The Pentateuch was not originally written for the general population; it was written for Joshua and Aaron, and their successors. It was always intended to be read out to the people within the context of the service of worship, together with an explanation of its meaning.
Even today, reading the Scriptures at home is intended to be something we do in addition to attending services of worship where we hear them read out and explained. Reading alone at home should never be considered an adequate substitute for particpating with the worshipping community.
M
MariaG
Guest
I believe this was a well thought out and compassionate response. It leaves him with the ability to reach out anytime he wishes to accept the basic Christianity of the Catholic Faith.
Although I pray that you also leave open the possibility for him to stop with his toxic talk and be at least nominally involved in your lives if he can keep his opinions and digs to himself without openly acknowledging the truth of Catholicism? Or at least think about this option? (Realizing of Course that any grandchildren could never be left alone in his presence lest he tries to taint their minds, unless he acknowledges the basic Christianity of Catholics.)
In any way, I pray that God richly blesses you both for her choosing to leave even her father to follow Him.
God Bless,
Maria
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scylla
Guest
I strongly suggest that since he is changing the subject then you make it a point to specifically state that he has conceded the point and his position is indefensible. Or else he will just wander off to other subjects without focusing on truth.
Keep the communication open and pray for him. Most Protestants when cornered will change the subject and then find a way to suggest that they still have a better relationship with Christ than you since you didn’t focus on that. (so rather than state that they have no answer they will attack your relationship with Jesus)
So make sure to always keep focused on Jesus as the source of our faith and truth.
In Christ
Scylla
Keep the communication open and pray for him. Most Protestants when cornered will change the subject and then find a way to suggest that they still have a better relationship with Christ than you since you didn’t focus on that. (so rather than state that they have no answer they will attack your relationship with Jesus)
So make sure to always keep focused on Jesus as the source of our faith and truth.
In Christ
Scylla
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
This came up in CARM. Thanks for your answers.
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