Needing help with Philokalia Vol 1 on prayer

[Stephentlig]

Evagrios the Solitary: **114: ‘‘Never try to see a form or shape during prayer.’’ **

txt:115’'Do not long to have a sensory image of angels or powers or Christ, for this would be madness: it would be to take a wolf as your shephard and to worship your enemies, the demons.

txt:116’'Self esteem is the start of illusions in the intellect. Under its impulse, the intellect attempts to enclose the Deity in shapes and forms.

txt:117 '‘I shall say again what I said else where: blessed is the intellect that is completely free from forms during prayer.’'

I need help with the above, is Evagrios talking about ‘‘longing’’ for them as opposed to thinking of them?, and is he asking us that we keep our Hearts and minds blank from all sorts of fantasy during prayer? for example: we use Icons to help lift our minds to the supernatural, I would of thought that picturing the image of the Ikon of Jesus or Mary during prayer to them would of been ok to do. So I am a little troubled and would like it if someone could help me interpret what exactly Evagrios is saying? I take 115 for granted and completely understand what he talking about but thought I’d put it up here for all to see and be able to read all the texts after one another so nothing gets taken out of context. The texts I have bolded are the ones I’m having trouble with understanding.

Pax Christi
Stephen <3

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Evagrios the Solitary: **114: ‘‘Never try to see a form or shape during prayer.’’ **

txt:115’'Do not long to have a sensory image of angels or powers or Christ, for this would be madness: it would be to take a wolf as your shephard and to worship your enemies, the demons.

txt:116’'Self esteem is the start of illusions in the intellect. Under its impulse, the intellect attempts to enclose the Deity in shapes and forms.

txt:117 '‘I shall say again what I said else where: blessed is the intellect that is completely free from forms during prayer.’'

I need help with the above, is Evagrios talking about ‘‘longing’’ for them as opposed to thinking of them?, and is he asking us that we keep our Hearts and minds blank from all sorts of fantasy during prayer? for example: we use Icons to help lift our minds to the supernatural, I would of thought that picturing the image of the Ikon of Jesus or Mary during prayer to them would of been ok to do. So I am a little troubled and would like it if someone could help me interpret what exactly Evagrios is saying? I take 115 for granted and completely understand what he talking about but thought I’d put it up here for all to see and be able to read all the texts after one another so nothing gets taken out of context. The texts I have bolded are the ones I’m having trouble with understanding.

Pax Christi
Stephen <3

Hello Stephen.

I believe Evagrios is talking about what Jesuit spirituality refers to as “discursive meditation.” The claim is that we are not to have an image/picture of God in our mind while we pray because to do so is to set up an idol in the place of the “unseeable” God. By picturing God in our minds what we are actually doing is projecting an image of ourselves and then praying to that projection. This is different from using the holy icons in prayer because they are images that are sanctioned by the Church (Christ’s Body, and therefore Christ Himself).

That being said, there are other opinions as well in Eastern Christianity, and Evagrios is far from being the final word and authority on the issue. I recommend checking out Metropolitan Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia’s CD or DVD series entitled “Mystical Theology of the Eastern Fathers.” The first saint he covers in this series is St. Evagrios. I think you would find this series to be an excellent accompaniment to the Philokalia.

 

[Stephentlig]

Hello Stephen.

I believe Evagrios is talking about what Jesuit spirituality refers to as “discursive meditation.” The claim is that we are not to have an image/picture of God in our mind while we pray because to do so is to set up an idol in the place of the “unseeable” God. By picturing God in our minds what we are actually doing is projecting an image of ourselves and then praying to that projection. This is different from using the holy icons in prayer because they are images that are sanctioned by the Church (Christ’s Body, and therefore Christ Himself).

That being said, there are other opinions as well in Eastern Christianity, and Evagrios is far from being the final word and authority on the issue. I recommend checking out Metropolitan Kallistos (Ware) of Diokleia’s CD or DVD series entitled “Mystical Theology of the Eastern Fathers.” The first saint he covers in this series is St. Evagrios. I think you would find this series to be an excellent accompaniment to the Philokalia.

Just the answer I was looking for Philip, have you any idea where I can buy the DVD you proposed? That sounds like a great dvd. drooling

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Just the answer I was looking for Philip, have you any idea where I can buy the DVD you proposed? That sounds like a great dvd. drooling

Both the CD and the DVD are available from the company that I work for, Orientale Lumen Television/Eastern Christian Publications. The website to check out would be oltv.tv. You can even watch some sample clips on it.

Metropolitan Kallistos’ book, “The Inner Kingdom,” works as an excellent supplement to the “Mystical Theology” series. I think it’s available through Eastern Christian Publications, but it’s actually published by St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press.

 

[Stephentlig]

Hi, this is brillianttttttttttttttttttttttt :extrahappy:

Just one question, it doesnt have any price tag ( although able to watch the sample clips ).

nor does it have a checkout area. could you perhaps help me with that? or do I have to contact them for the price etc etc?

God bless
Stephen <3

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Hi, this is brillianttttttttttttttttttttttt :extrahappy:

Just one question, it doesnt have any price tag ( although able to watch the sample clips ).

nor does it have a checkout area. could you perhaps help me with that? or do I have to contact them for the price etc etc?

God bless
Stephen <3

Yeah, our website isn’t the greatest. We work with a very limited budget. A profession web-designer just isn’t in the budget right now.

If you go to the “Lectures” category then click on the “Mystical Theology” series at the top of the page, you’ll find a “Buy Now” button in the top RIGHT-HAND corner. This will actually take you to a different website (we haven’t worked out all the kinks yet). From here you should be able to purchase the entire series, or just one episode at a time, whichever you prefer. The complete DVD package is $100.00 and the CD package is $50.00. There are 10 lectures, each roughly an hour in length. The content is phenomenal. I would recommend the CDs. Since there aren’t any props or lecture-slides or anything like that, the videos amount to nothing more than watching a “talking head” (albeit Metropolitan Kallistos’ talking head). That being said, however, I must say that it can be entertaining to watch Metropolitan Kallistos talk, simply because his face is so expressive.

Hope this helps. If you enjoy this series I recommend you also check out his “Inner Meaning of the Eucharist” series, as well as anything else by him that we carry.

 

[skinny_pumpkin]

Evagrios the Solitary: **114: ‘‘Never try to see a form or shape during prayer.’’ **

txt:115’'Do not long to have a sensory image of angels or powers or Christ, for this would be madness: it would be to take a wolf as your shephard and to worship your enemies, the demons.

txt:116’'Self esteem is the start of illusions in the intellect. Under its impulse, the intellect attempts to enclose the Deity in shapes and forms.

txt:117 '‘I shall say again what I said else where: blessed is the intellect that is completely free from forms during prayer.’'

I need help with the above, is Evagrios talking about ‘‘longing’’ for them as opposed to thinking of them?, and is he asking us that we keep our Hearts and minds blank from all sorts of fantasy during prayer? for example: we use Icons to help lift our minds to the supernatural, I would of thought that picturing the image of the Ikon of Jesus or Mary during prayer to them would of been ok to do. So I am a little troubled and would like it if someone could help me interpret what exactly Evagrios is saying? I take 115 for granted and completely understand what he talking about but thought I’d put it up here for all to see and be able to read all the texts after one another so nothing gets taken out of context. The texts I have bolded are the ones I’m having trouble with understanding.

Pax Christi
Stephen <3

Stephen,

It's basically an "apophatic view of God and prayer.   Think of it this way.   "God is Love",  but also "God is passionless".    The hesychast avoids both extremes.   Out of humility, he does not make positive statements about God and considers any thoughts in that manner that emanate from himself as being rooted in delusion, pride and from his sinful nature.   Instead he goes by "revelation", but only that which has proven to be not a deception from centuries of experience.  Hence the stress of having a spiritual father for guidance.

An hesychastic view of icons, and even prayer books or psalmondy and churches for that matter, could be approached from the mindset that praying in this manner, you bring nothing of yourself. You do not create the prayer, you do not portray Christ (the icon does in a non passionate way) etc.

SP

 

[Stephentlig]

Yeah, our website isn’t the greatest. We work with a very limited budget. A profession web-designer just isn’t in the budget right now.

If you go to the “Lectures” category then click on the “Mystical Theology” series at the top of the page, you’ll find a “Buy Now” button in the top RIGHT-HAND corner. This will actually take you to a different website (we haven’t worked out all the kinks yet). From here you should be able to purchase the entire series, or just one episode at a time, whichever you prefer. The complete DVD package is $100.00 and the CD package is $50.00. There are 10 lectures, each roughly an hour in length. The content is phenomenal. I would recommend the CDs. Since there aren’t any props or lecture-slides or anything like that, the videos amount to nothing more than watching a “talking head” (albeit Metropolitan Kallistos’ talking head). That being said, however, I must say that it can be entertaining to watch Metropolitan Kallistos talk, simply because his face is so expressive.

Hope this helps. If you enjoy this series I recommend you also check out his “Inner Meaning of the Eucharist” series, as well as anything else by him that we carry.

Hi I dont think its a bad site at all, its very creative, it is my blindness that is the problem lol so I found the very obvious ‘‘BUY NOW’’ At the top right hand corner of the screen. I will have to look for someone with a card to buy me it as I dont have one with a visa symbol on it, but in Ireland I do have a laser card, and I can pay by this only if I were to ring up on the phone, ( I think ) but if not I’ll have to find someone with a card.

I’m in two minds whether or not to buy the CD or DVD, having the CD means I can walk around with it on headphones, but having the DVD means I can sit at home and watch it and be more attentive and have people come over watch it with me especially my Wife.

Pax Christi
Stephen <3