C
CARose
Guest
Jimmy,
Thanks for the excellent exegesis on the Greek Bible, with Greek characters, nonetheless!
CARose
Thanks for the excellent exegesis on the Greek Bible, with Greek characters, nonetheless!
CARose
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T
Tinkerbell
Guest
Hey Brittany,
I know how you are feeling about now. I went through a similar situation with someone very near and dear to me. I’ll admit I’m not a very good debator and find prayers work better in my situation. I think the person I was dealing with finally understands what I really believe and not what someone told him Catholics believe. STAY STRONG!!! I’ll will be praying for you and your friend.
I know how you are feeling about now. I went through a similar situation with someone very near and dear to me. I’ll admit I’m not a very good debator and find prayers work better in my situation. I think the person I was dealing with finally understands what I really believe and not what someone told him Catholics believe. STAY STRONG!!! I’ll will be praying for you and your friend.
S
stumbler
Guest
I am, at best, ambivalent about these situations. My niece was involved with a teen Christian organization in high school. I questioned her at length about it. It was mostly Protestants. They mostly challenged her about Catholicism. She rationalized it as a wonderful opportunity to learn more about Catholicism and witness to them. Although her parents (my brother and sil) are devout, she has one foot out the Church door already. In the end, I think the constant badgering by her “friends” raised doubts she couldn’t quell (and/or the constant emphasis on false ecumenism allowed her to rationalize a move away from the Chuch).
Some important points to remember:
1 - The only thing that binds Protestants together is the conviction that the Catholic Church MUST BE WRONG. If the Catholic Church is right, then Protestantism is obviously false. As a consequence, much of their intellectual effort goes into attacking the Church. They have a million ideas about how the Catholic Church might be wrong. So defending Catholicism against 999,999 different attacks is not enough.
2 - No matter how many times you defend a Catholic doctrine or point out the fallacies in their position, it doesn’t matter – in the sense that you can’t argue someone into the Faith. People convert because of the action of the Holy Spirit, not the brilliance of our human exposition.
3 - Protestants have only a quoted verse understanding of the Bible (and please understand that I mean no disrespect to our Protestant brothers, as their Biblical knowledge often exceeds that of average Catholics). By that I mean they can pull a verse from the Bible to rationalize just about any belief. Verse slinging with those who only have a verse-level understanding of the Bible is useless.
4 - Practically every point of faith, in the end, devolves into an issue of authority. Church vs. Bible. Protestants, for the most part, don’t appreciate the chicken and egg nature of their position. Sole reliance on the Bible would seem to be more reliable than reliance on an organization with men (even though that’s what the Bible tells us to rely on!
) So it is essential that you have a solid, broad, and Catholic understanding of the history of the Bible, sola Scriptura, the formation of the Church, and the role of the Pope.
5 - The Early Church Fathers provide an excellent source for understanding authentic Catholic teachings. Get a good reference.
6 - Marian doctrines are seemingly the most difficult for Protestants to understand. I tend to avoid arguing over them because Mariology tends to be the biblical equivalent of advanced mathematics. As someone quipped on these boards, “there are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary mathematics and those who don’t.” While the statement 1+1=10 is true for binary systems, you’ll never convince someone who only understand basic (base 10) arithmetic. In like manner, unless someone holds a true (i.e., Catholic) understanding of the Bible, he may never understand Mary.
7 - At a minimum, understand that the Bible is a Catholic book. The Church gave it to the world and established its canon. Rest assured that there is nothing in Catholicism that contradicts the Bible and nothing—nothing!—in the Bible that contradicts Catholicism.
8 - Hanging with those who don’t respect your beliefs is very trying on the soul. In the end, you have to make a choice. Should you continue to subject youself to doubt and doubters, or do you shake the dust from your sandals and move on?
Good luck and may God bless you on your journey,
Some important points to remember:
1 - The only thing that binds Protestants together is the conviction that the Catholic Church MUST BE WRONG. If the Catholic Church is right, then Protestantism is obviously false. As a consequence, much of their intellectual effort goes into attacking the Church. They have a million ideas about how the Catholic Church might be wrong. So defending Catholicism against 999,999 different attacks is not enough.
2 - No matter how many times you defend a Catholic doctrine or point out the fallacies in their position, it doesn’t matter – in the sense that you can’t argue someone into the Faith. People convert because of the action of the Holy Spirit, not the brilliance of our human exposition.
3 - Protestants have only a quoted verse understanding of the Bible (and please understand that I mean no disrespect to our Protestant brothers, as their Biblical knowledge often exceeds that of average Catholics). By that I mean they can pull a verse from the Bible to rationalize just about any belief. Verse slinging with those who only have a verse-level understanding of the Bible is useless.
4 - Practically every point of faith, in the end, devolves into an issue of authority. Church vs. Bible. Protestants, for the most part, don’t appreciate the chicken and egg nature of their position. Sole reliance on the Bible would seem to be more reliable than reliance on an organization with men (even though that’s what the Bible tells us to rely on!
) So it is essential that you have a solid, broad, and Catholic understanding of the history of the Bible, sola Scriptura, the formation of the Church, and the role of the Pope.5 - The Early Church Fathers provide an excellent source for understanding authentic Catholic teachings. Get a good reference.
6 - Marian doctrines are seemingly the most difficult for Protestants to understand. I tend to avoid arguing over them because Mariology tends to be the biblical equivalent of advanced mathematics. As someone quipped on these boards, “there are 10 kinds of people in the world, those who understand binary mathematics and those who don’t.” While the statement 1+1=10 is true for binary systems, you’ll never convince someone who only understand basic (base 10) arithmetic. In like manner, unless someone holds a true (i.e., Catholic) understanding of the Bible, he may never understand Mary.
7 - At a minimum, understand that the Bible is a Catholic book. The Church gave it to the world and established its canon. Rest assured that there is nothing in Catholicism that contradicts the Bible and nothing—nothing!—in the Bible that contradicts Catholicism.
8 - Hanging with those who don’t respect your beliefs is very trying on the soul. In the end, you have to make a choice. Should you continue to subject youself to doubt and doubters, or do you shake the dust from your sandals and move on?
Good luck and may God bless you on your journey,
J
Jodi
Guest
Protestants confuse me. How can they claim pure water from an impure source? Either the Catholic church is true, and that the bible that they created is the work of God or it isn’t. If it is not true then there is no hope for them to get the truth because their source (the catholic church) didn’t have the truth for them to draw from. If the bible is the word of God and came from the church then the church must be his. And if they claim to be restoring what was lost I find it interesting that all of the protestant denominations are restoring diffrent things, to the point where many have lost important basic truths that are in the bible they claim to hold most dear.
A
Ani_Ibi
Guest
stumbler said:
True and wise. This harks back to Paul’s caution about milk and strong meat. Many times, people get all bent out of shape about something they don’t begin to understand and they feel entitled to pounce it and worry it into submission. No no no. They have to learn the basics first.
I find it singularly incomprehensible that people would want to encapsulate in a ‘silver bullet’ the lives, teaching, and learning of 2 millenia of exceptionally faithful, brilliant, and meticulous people: the Catholic Church. Like there’s a shortcut? Like there’s an easy way?
C
challenger
Guest
A challenge on the Immaculate Conception is a great opening to turn the discussion around into, “Where does the Bible say everything to be believed must be explicitly stated in the Bible?”
Once you’re on sola scriptura, you’ve got 'em. It is among the weakest Protestant doctrines.
Once you’re on sola scriptura, you’ve got 'em. It is among the weakest Protestant doctrines.
M
mjdonnelly
Guest
Friends don’t attack other’s beliefs, they may debate them, but not attack.
H
hungry
Guest
Two things here, first of all, the Bible is the Word of God and the Old Testament Scriptures were around before there ever was a church, period. Secondly, the church is (Jew and Gentile together) came about at Pentecost, but if you are talking of the Roman Catholic Church, it wasn’t around for a lot of centuries later, 600? AD. Prior to that we have in the beginning of the second century the canon put together on the most part, without the apocrypha, which wasn’t added as canon until the Council of Trent. So all the others before hand may have referred to it for historical content, but was never recognized as Holy Scripture, not even by the Jews. You can see Josephus for that one.
The only thing that I know the protestants have restored is the truth of the Gospel through Jesus Christ and Him alone, which is what the Bible teaches from beginning to end.
B
BibleReader
Guest
This is in addition to my previous post, kid.
Re the papacy, and infallibility, most Catholics and non-Catholics have a tendency to zip to what are perceived to be the simplest, most-easy-to-deal-with points, first.
So, ironically, BOTH Catholics and anti-Catholics discuss ONE verse, Matthew 16:18 (“You are Petros and upon this petra,” etc.), and insist that the papacy has only been infallible TWICE in history.
In fact, Matthew 16:18 is merely the climactic verse of dozens, and the papacy has been infallible on dozens of issues.
Here are two more verses on the Church of Peter, one of which involves infallibility…
5:1 And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret, 5:2 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing their nets. 5:3 And he entered into one of the ships, which was Simon’s, and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship. Luke 5:1-3.
So, the author takes the trouble to tell us that the boat was Simon-Peter’s. Why? He is creating an allegorical picture of Christ presiding (“sat down”) in the Church (“boat”) of Peter, teaching the saved (the folks on the shore). Note that CHRIST HIMSELF is doing the teaching. We are being told, in other words, that the true teaching of Christ Himself would come out of the Church of Peter.
22:49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword? 22:50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear. 22:51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him. Luke 22:49-51.
18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus. 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? John 18:10-11.
In these two selections, one from Luke and one from John, we see Peter cutting-off the ear of Malchus with a sword, and then Christ repairing the ear.
In the Bible, “sword” = the word of God. See Ephesians 6:17. So, it is not an accident that the sword, or “word of God,” is applied to an EAR. Get it?
Now, who is doing the “applying”?
Peter, the first pope.
The ear reacts badly to the word: IT FALLS OFF!
And then we see Christ FIXING the hearing of the word: He cures the hearing.
The Church refers to God protecting the hearing of infallible truth “the receptive grace of infallibility.”
Re the papacy, and infallibility, most Catholics and non-Catholics have a tendency to zip to what are perceived to be the simplest, most-easy-to-deal-with points, first.
So, ironically, BOTH Catholics and anti-Catholics discuss ONE verse, Matthew 16:18 (“You are Petros and upon this petra,” etc.), and insist that the papacy has only been infallible TWICE in history.
In fact, Matthew 16:18 is merely the climactic verse of dozens, and the papacy has been infallible on dozens of issues.
Here are two more verses on the Church of Peter, one of which involves infallibility…
5:1 And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret, 5:2 And saw two ships standing by the lake: but the fishermen were gone out of them, and were washing their nets. 5:3 And he entered into one of the ships, which was Simon’s, and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship. Luke 5:1-3.
So, the author takes the trouble to tell us that the boat was Simon-Peter’s. Why? He is creating an allegorical picture of Christ presiding (“sat down”) in the Church (“boat”) of Peter, teaching the saved (the folks on the shore). Note that CHRIST HIMSELF is doing the teaching. We are being told, in other words, that the true teaching of Christ Himself would come out of the Church of Peter.
22:49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword? 22:50 And one of them smote the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear. 22:51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him. Luke 22:49-51.
18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus. 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? John 18:10-11.
In these two selections, one from Luke and one from John, we see Peter cutting-off the ear of Malchus with a sword, and then Christ repairing the ear.
In the Bible, “sword” = the word of God. See Ephesians 6:17. So, it is not an accident that the sword, or “word of God,” is applied to an EAR. Get it?
Now, who is doing the “applying”?
Peter, the first pope.
The ear reacts badly to the word: IT FALLS OFF!
And then we see Christ FIXING the hearing of the word: He cures the hearing.
The Church refers to God protecting the hearing of infallible truth “the receptive grace of infallibility.”
B
BibleReader
Guest
One more thing, kiddo: Don’t try to “win arguments.” Using Catholicism like an emotional club has never converted a single person in the history of the Universe.
Look at what Christ had to do, to convert: Die.
So, say a prayer before speaking to your friend.
And then tell him your arguments, but with patient love, no matter what, no matter what, no matter what.
Frequently, the seed you plant today will not start growing for, say, 20 years. No joke!
Don’t look for instant results.
Look at what Christ had to do, to convert: Die.
So, say a prayer before speaking to your friend.
And then tell him your arguments, but with patient love, no matter what, no matter what, no matter what.
Frequently, the seed you plant today will not start growing for, say, 20 years. No joke!
Don’t look for instant results.
S
stumbler
Guest
Not exactly. Writings from the Old Testament period were around before Christ established His Church. Were they universally recognized as “Old Testament Scriptures”? Nope. Various factions recognized different writings as Scripture. For example, the Sadducees recognized only the Torah.
And by the way, how do you know the Bible is the Word of God? Because Zondervan Press told you? What Protestant has authority to proclaim some writing is (or is not) actually God speaking to us?
What history book makes that wild claim?
Rather than making some squishy unsupported assertion, how about picking a date and citing your source(s)?
Actually, no. For a good summary of the development of the canon, see Dave Armstrong’s page (all derived from Protestant sources) here. What you’ll see is that at no time in the early church was the Protestant canon ever considered as “the canon.”
As to the Catholic canon, it was finally set down explicitly at the Council of Rome in AD 382, under the authority of Pope Damasus I. This canon, which included the deuterocanonicals, was confirmed many times thereafter, by the Synod of Hippo (393), the Council of Carthage (397), Pope Innocent I (405), a later Council at Carthage (419), Pope Gelasius I (495), the seventh ecumenical council, II Nicaea (787), and the Council of Florence in 1442. It is a Protestant myth that the deuterocanonicals (the so-called apocrypha) were added at Trent.
Not correct. The Church recognized it as such all the way back in AD 382.
The Jewish canon wasn’t set for hundreds of years of after Christ. And we know from explicit Jewish testimony that one of their motivating factors in finalizing a canon was to deny the Messiahship of Jesus.
How do you know the Protestants acted with any God-given authority to select a canon for Scripture? What signs were there? How can I rely on what appears to be strictly a man-made Protestant tradition? How can you claim that Protestants “restored” the canon when it did not exist prior to the Catholic canon?
p.s., rather than inserting yourself into a thread started by a Catholic asking for advice from other Catholics, why not post your assertions as a new thread in the Apologetics forum? That would seem to be the more responsible thing to do.
S
stumbler
Guest
Hungry,
Oh great! Some time between when I started my long-winded reply and the time I finally posted it, you managed to get yourself banned.
Oh well. May God be with you in your journey,
Oh great! Some time between when I started my long-winded reply and the time I finally posted it, you managed to get yourself banned.
Oh well. May God be with you in your journey,
R
Rob_s_Wife
Guest
That’s my advice to you. Why does he (and you) expect that you always have to have the answer to his questions? Why don’t you ask him some questions? For example,
If the bible is the ONLY thing you want to reference, why doesn’t your church use the original?
What does your church teach about the foundations of christianity? AHHH You mean the Catholic church was the coundation???
What is your church doctrine?
You mean your church doesn’t have any particuliar beliefs outside of “The new bible we made tells us so?”
I imagine he will have a hard time fielding your responses! Stay calm, don’t let him rattle you - whether he knows it or not, this young man is searching for God. Sometimes, you have to let a person know where NOT to look to help them see where the obvious and reasonable location is. kwim?
Good luck!
If the bible is the ONLY thing you want to reference, why doesn’t your church use the original?
What does your church teach about the foundations of christianity? AHHH You mean the Catholic church was the coundation???
What is your church doctrine?
You mean your church doesn’t have any particuliar beliefs outside of “The new bible we made tells us so?”
I imagine he will have a hard time fielding your responses! Stay calm, don’t let him rattle you - whether he knows it or not, this young man is searching for God. Sometimes, you have to let a person know where NOT to look to help them see where the obvious and reasonable location is. kwim?
Good luck!
A
Arwen037
Guest
Some things you just have to accept on faith. Only people with open minds will ever hear your argument. But don’t give up. I spent 4 or 5 years saying I would NEVER EVER convert to Catholicism. But for all of those years I’ve been thinking about it in my heart. And now I also find myself 4 weeks into RCIA. Don’t worry if you can’t properly answer and defend every statement. Somewhere in this forum there is a really good argument for this sorta stuff. It says something about how the Bible never mentions Jesus using the bathroom, he only eats like 3 times, and never takes a bath, and how that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
Y
yinekka
Guest
I am always puzzled when I read on these forums or hear on Catholic answers " I have this Baptist/Mormon/Evangelical friend and he/she challenges me about my Catholic Faith…"
- What sort of friend is this?
- Does the Catholic ever challenge the ‘friend’ as to why they aren’t members of the Church which Christ founded?
- Why is it always up to the Catholic in the ‘friendship’ to run around finding answers for the rubbish the non Catholics come up with?
J
Jim_B
Guest
R
robert_ambrose
Guest
Doint panic. in the book of luke the angel said to mary hail mary FULL OF GRACE. in the greek means perfection.
peter was named as our 1st. pope when jesus thou art rock and on this rock etc. etc.
peter was named as our 1st. pope when jesus thou art rock and on this rock etc. etc.
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