Negative Influences to Mass by Some Laity?

[Spiller]

My pastor has been here for a little bit more than a year and things have definitely improved from a liturgical perspective. I’m curious though – how much resistance do pastors face in eradicating liturgical problems with regard to a concretely ensconced group of lay liturgical “coordinators?”

Yes, I know some feel a pastor can say something and it’s immediately followed without question but that’s typically not the case. My pastor is wise and tactful and is leading real positive change but I’m curious as to the pressure he is likely facing? Thanks.

 

[stbruno]

There’s an old joke around church circles somewhere…oh NO! it’s a liturgist! Hide!

Unfortunately, it’s a common problem, but with grace, diplomacy, pastor usually will rise above any lay liturgist…God willing!

 

[Phemie]

There’s an old joke around church circles somewhere…oh NO! it’s a liturgist! Hide!

Unfortunately, it’s a common problem, but with grace, diplomacy, pastor usually will rise above any lay liturgist…God willing!

We’ve only had one pastor in 10 years that gave a hoot about doing things right. When he changed the things to the way they were supposed to be there was great grumbling from the community but the only ‘liturgists’ were the ones who wanted things done right and were cheering him on.

Now we have a pastor who couldn’t care less and any mention of rubrics and GIRM gets us a sermon about the Pharisees. No genuflecting at Consecration, jokes at most inappropriate moments, passes the ciborium around like a candy dish for the EMHCs to help themselves and they all receive at the same time as he does, etc… But people just love him and his ‘Chicken Soup for the Soul’ homilies.

I was chair of the liturgy committee but we were told to train the EMHCs to do things contrary to all the documents. I couldn’t do it so I quit. He was most relieved.

We now have a parish with no pastoral council, no functioning finance council, no liturgy committee to prepare anything and if there is a special liturgy he might think to tell me the day of and set me scrambling to prepare something (I’m still the secretary). He just doesn’t care, he wants to teach not be a pastor. Last week he spent every day in a community 25 miles away substituting in the school (no, not a Catholic school, we have no such thing).

 

[Joannm]

There’s an old joke around church circles somewhere…oh NO! it’s a liturgist! Hide!

Unfortunately, it’s a common problem, but with grace, diplomacy, pastor usually will rise above any lay liturgist…God willing!

I have tried not to disclose this, but I am a liturgist…and yes I have been described as a terrorist but because I want to do things the way they are written in the GIRM. I prepare all the parish liturgies and there are quite a few things that we do that go against the GIRM but not because of me. Granted they are not major things but small things that I believe we should not be doing. The pastor says I should lighten up. But…one of the things I have been pushing for, our bishop just came out and said that we have to do. Now the pastor wants me to figure out how to best do it (not using hosts from the tabernacle). For seven years I have been telling him how to do it.

Many liturgists work very hard in preparing parish liturgies. All our priests need to do to prepare for mass is write their homily and pray before mass. The pastor knows that everything else is taken care of. I have several friends in other parishes who do the same work as I do and they all do it quiet well. We are all members of the diocesan liturgy commission and our thoughts and opinions and talents are sought out. We are also quite respected by other priests and we are asked to train others in their parishes to prepare liturgies and serve on parish liturgy committies. So not all liturgists are as you describe. Some are very well educated, more educated than some priests in this area, not into novelty, and don’t think of the GIRM as a dirty word. We disapprove of liturgical dancing. We know that if there are enought ordinary ministers then our EMHCs must step down. We believe in well trained lectors. Our choirs sing a great variety of liturgical music, including chant and Latin. We consistently improve ourselves through continuing education. And we know what we are doing…

I just had to get that out.

 

[paramedicgirl]

It’s a shame there aren’t enough priests (and nuns) to run a parish these days. It should be clerics in charge of the Mass, not the laity.

 

[puzzleannie]

if the parish is one where a former priest abdicated his role as liturgist and allowed lay persons, no matter how well-intentioned or “trained” (“trained liturgists” opens a field for speculation to intimidating to explore, I think Gary Larson would do the illustrations), that parish will have problems when a new priest comes along.

for Catholics, anything done for a year or more is a “tradition” and nearly impossible to change. we had this situation in a neighboring parish in our former town, and it was a disaster. because the priest was run ragged trying to take care of pastoral needs of 3 parishes, the lay people ran everything, and new pastors had a terrible time, and started conflicts that made the local news, when they tried to make changes.

and lest I get in trouble for my irreverant remarks, great praise should go to those lay people, including liturgists, who fill roles that should be done by priests, for whatever reason, and do noble service to the Church. even those who blunder in the worst ways have, 90% of the time, come forward because they were asked, and are doing what they were told to do, in the manner in which they were taught to do it, so blame the teachers. When someone like pp comes along who becomes a true prophetic voice in the parish for orthodoxy and obedience, they are a beacon. The priests are there for us, but we are also there for the priests, and when you are in a position to nudge the priest to do better, you have really been a blessing beyond even that parish.

 

[Spiller]

I have tried not to disclose this, but I am a liturgist…and yes I have been described as a terrorist but because I want to do things the way they are written in the GIRM. I prepare all the parish liturgies and there are quite a few things that we do that go against the GIRM but not because of me. Granted they are not major things but small things that I believe we should not be doing. The pastor says I should lighten up. But…one of the things I have been pushing for, our bishop just came out and said that we have to do. Now the pastor wants me to figure out how to best do it (not using hosts from the tabernacle). For seven years I have been telling him how to do it.

Many liturgists work very hard in preparing parish liturgies. All our priests need to do to prepare for mass is write their homily and pray before mass. The pastor knows that everything else is taken care of. I have several friends in other parishes who do the same work as I do and they all do it quiet well. We are all members of the diocesan liturgy commission and our thoughts and opinions and talents are sought out. We are also quite respected by other priests and we are asked to train others in their parishes to prepare liturgies and serve on parish liturgy committies. So not all liturgists are as you describe. Some are very well educated, more educated than some priests in this area, not into novelty, and don’t think of the GIRM as a dirty word. We disapprove of liturgical dancing. We know that if there are enought ordinary ministers then our EMHCs must step down. We believe in well trained lectors. Our choirs sing a great variety of liturgical music, including chant and Latin. We consistently improve ourselves through continuing education. And we know what we are doing…

I just had to get that out.

What makes you an expert?

And they’re “readers” by the way unless they are actually instituted males…

 

[Spiller]

It’s a shame there aren’t enough priests (and nuns) to run a parish these days. It should be clerics in charge of the Mass, not the laity.

Nuns are not clerics.

 

[Spiller]

if the parish is one where a former priest abdicated his role as liturgist and allowed lay persons, no matter how well-intentioned or “trained” (“trained liturgists” opens a field for speculation to intimidating to explore, I think Gary Larson would do the illustrations), that parish will have problems when a new priest comes along.

for Catholics, anything done for a year or more is a “tradition” and nearly impossible to change. we had this situation in a neighboring parish in our former town, and it was a disaster. because the priest was run ragged trying to take care of pastoral needs of 3 parishes, the lay people ran everything, and new pastors had a terrible time, and started conflicts that made the local news, when they tried to make changes.

and lest I get in trouble for my irreverant remarks, great praise should go to those lay people, including liturgists, who fill roles that should be done by priests, for whatever reason, and do noble service to the Church. even those who blunder in the worst ways have, 90% of the time, come forward because they were asked, and are doing what they were told to do, in the manner in which they were taught to do it, so blame the teachers. When someone like pp comes along who becomes a true prophetic voice in the parish for orthodoxy and obedience, they are a beacon. The priests are there for us, but we are also there for the priests, and when you are in a position to nudge the priest to do better, you have really been a blessing beyond even that parish.

What the heck does a “liturgist” even do? Someone decides on the music and the optional things for any Mass. Big deal! Yes, a very few certain Masses like first communion and confirmation Masses would take a considerable amount of coordination, but otherwise it’s not a big thing.

It’s only when things become artificially complex with scheduling hordes of EMsHC does things become difficult.

When I am “on” for Sunday morning I unlock the Church. Are the flowers from the wedding the night before part of what the liturgist does? If not, I see no trace of the liturgist.

I light the candles, prepare the Lectionary/Sacramentary/Evageliary/etc. per the Ordo. Prepare the gifts (ordered by the parish secretary), Mass intentions sheet, sacred vessels and sacred linens. One of the ushers puts out the baskets. Still no liturgist.

When the celebrant arrives I’ll say EP3? and either change the ribbon or leave it alone as directed. I’ll also ask for any special instructions – need for incense, holy water, Book of Blessings, etc. About that time one of the music ministers will arrive and have a 10 second chat with the celebrant and that’s that. Still no liturgist.

Someone else schedules the hordes of EMsHC and readers. Is that what a liturgist does? There’s not much more to do…

 

[Phemie]

And they’re “readers” by the way unless they are actually instituted males…

Neither Redemptionis Sacramentum nor the GIRM uses the term ‘reader’.

R.I. refers to “instituted lector” and “lector by temporary deputation”.

GIRM says that if no suitable ‘lector’ is available the priest does all the readings.

 

[Spiller]

Neither Redemptionis Sacramentum nor the GIRM uses the term ‘reader’.

R.I. refers to “instituted lector” and “lector by temporary deputation”.

GIRM says that if no suitable ‘lector’ is available the priest does all the readings.

All lectors are instituted…

Interesting how I hear readers often referred to as “lectors” while I rarely hear altar servers referred to as “acolytes”

 

[Joannm]

What the heck does a “liturgist” even do? Someone decides on the music and the optional things for any Mass. Big deal! Yes, a very few certain Masses like first communion and confirmation Masses would take a considerable amount of coordination, but otherwise it’s not a big thing.

It’s only when things become artificially complex with scheduling hordes of EMsHC does things become difficult.

When I am “on” for Sunday morning I unlock the Church. Are the flowers from the wedding the night before part of what the liturgist does? If not, I see no trace of the liturgist.

I light the candles, prepare the Lectionary/Sacramentary/Evageliary/etc. per the Ordo. Prepare the gifts (ordered by the parish secretary), Mass intentions sheet, sacred vessels and sacred linens. One of the ushers puts out the baskets. Still no liturgist.

When the celebrant arrives I’ll say EP3? and either change the ribbon or leave it alone as directed. I’ll also ask for any special instructions – need for incense, holy water, Book of Blessings, etc. About that time one of the music ministers will arrive and have a 10 second chat with the celebrant and that’s that. Still no liturgist.

Someone else schedules the hordes of EMsHC and readers. Is that what a liturgist does? There’s not much more to do…

What you do is the job of a sacristian. Scheduling the EMHCs and letors is the job of those coordinators. The music director decides the music for the mass. The job of a liturgist is much more involved. To describe a liturgists job would take too much time than I have to post here.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

My pastor has been here for a little bit more than a year and things have definitely improved from a liturgical perspective. I’m curious though – how much resistance do pastors face in eradicating liturgical problems with regard to a concretely ensconced group of lay liturgical “coordinators?”

Yes, I know some feel a pastor can say something and it’s immediately followed without question but that’s typically not the case. My pastor is wise and tactful and is leading real positive change but I’m curious as to the pressure he is likely facing? Thanks.

A lot!

 

[frommi]

With all due respect, this thread has some gross generalizations in it that seem to exist to do nothing more than get a rise out of people’s ‘pet peeves’.

Liturgists, sacristans…whatever they are, when trained appropriately do a lot of good work for the church. It’s unfair to lump them all into a big ball and act as though you can paint them with one brush stroke.

 

[Spiller]

What you do is the job of a sacristian. Scheduling the EMHCs and letors is the job of those coordinators. The music director decides the music for the mass. The job of a liturgist is much more involved. To describe a liturgists job would take too much time than I have to post here.

No, no, no. I’m not a sacristan. I am merely a helper

Sacristans are focused on doing the ecclesiastical laundry, ordering the supplies (unless the secretary does it), keeping the sacred items polished and inventoried, etc.

I think the main chores of a “liturgist” is to pick/approve the music, choose which Mass options they want and relate those desires to the set-up people. Because the best liturgists seem to be pastors or at least priests, I would include crafting the homily.

[Edited]

 

[Joannm]

No, no, no. I’m not a sacristan. I am merely a helper

Sacristans are focused on doing the ecclesiastical laundry, ordering the supplies (unless the secretary does it), keeping the sacred items polished and inventoried, etc.

I think the main chores of a “liturgist” is to pick/approve the music, choose which Mass options they want and relate those desires to the set-up people. Because the best liturgists seem to be pastors or at least priests, I would include crafting the homily.

[Edited]

You were the one who was misinformed about what a liturgist does. I was simply setting you straight. As I said at the beginning, I have avoided mentioning what I am and do in my pairsh since I knew the reaction it would get. [Edited] I have a high opinion of those who work in this field of ministry as I know, first hand, all that it entails. And yes, you are acting in the capacity of a sacristian. What you describe is what our sacristan does. The duties of a sacristan vary in different parishes. Our sacristians do not do laundry. We have a group of ladies who do that. Our secretary does the ordering. Here is a basic idea of what a sacristian does.
ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur184.htm

 

[paramedicgirl]

Nuns are not clerics.

Yes, I know. I didn’t say they were. Nuns often serve as sacristans, but it should be the priests who are in charge of the Mass.