Negativity, tones of voice, the end of my rope

[monicatholic]

While it’s easy to beat this guy up,

GhostMan,

I’m not beating the guy up. Sheeniac complained about a good guy who has character flaws very particular to some very vulnerable problem spots of hers. He’s a good guy but maybe not for her.

My daughter-in-law has terrible asthma. When my son returned to cigarette smoking during their dating relationship, she told him she’d have to leave the relationship because even the chemicals from smoke on his clothes would set her asthma into a tailspin.

My son is a good guy. But with that particular personality flaw (bad habbit) he wasn’t the guy for her.

He quit smoking. They’ve been married 3 years and have a wonderful new baby.

But if he couldn’t or wouldn’t quit, her health would have been compromised in a profound way because of him. Sheeniac described a similar circumstance. Maybe the fellow is just not for her.

But Sheeniac says not the case. I’m not arguing.

 

[surfinpure]

Back out of this relationship. Do it honestly if you can - but get away from him. You have no position of authority in his life. You can’t make him change nor even make him want to change. That you would even consider him as a suitable “future partner” while you are both in fact still married to others should be a huge red flag for you. That he has personality issues that are very alarming should tell you to get out while you can. Sometimes alone is much better than poorly matched. The notion that you can “fix him” or “help fix him” is absurd.

I don’t see the same cause for immediate alarm here. His personality issues are not, actually, all that uncommon. They are certainly problematic, but they also must be taken in perspective. I don’t think Sheeniac presumes to have a position of “authority” in his life, but by being in a relationship she needs to know how to handle the rough spots.

She can and will ultimately decide if this relationship is worth pursuing, and obviously that depends first upon their mutual annulments. Many people meet and want to marry another person before finalizing the process. Sure, it’s better to get it done as soon as the civil divorce occurs, but it also doesn’t usually happen that way. Just because they are still in the process does not mean they should avoid all concerns for the future.

 

[Sheeniac]

Sheeniac:

It seems you were looking for a different answer than the one you’ve pretty much unamiously received.

Only ***you ***can choose what to do.

You asked other people what they’ve thought about the matter through a public forum; in essence, you’ve asked for advice. They told you. For what it is worth, I’m telling you the same thing. Living with a depressed man as a husband is not a happy circumstance. Perhaps it’s time for a break. If it is of God, things will eventually turn around. But you can’t force God’s hand.

But only you can choose what to do.

If you don’t like what you’re hearing, perhaps you should think about why you don’t like hearing it. But, to ask for advice and then tear down the advice…?

I worried about replying in the way that I did because of that very point. However, it is rare that one posts all relevant information in one’s initial post. For example - the talk about “settling isn’t love”. I assumed it was a given that I love him, or else why would I post? Rather than tearing down the advice given, I am clarifying my situation.

I PM’d with someone last night who, after some back and forth, had a different perspective.

You’ve posted similar to others - do you do that in real life? Someone starts a serious discussion, you reply and that’s it? Does the other person not give more details, try to correct possible misunderstandings?

I would hope you wouldn’t tell them not to ask if they didn’t want to head, even if you still felt the same way after learning more details.

 

[Sheeniac]

If you are the age you seem to be, stop being his mother and making excuses for him.

Kathy

Kathy,

If you knew me, you wouldn’t say that. Heck, I don’t even make excuses for myself, let alone a man. I’m giving background and thoughts I left out of my initial post.

It’s tough in these situations to give what could be the other person’s point of view. Yet, I feel honor-bound to try. Otherwise, all of this advice is useless, isn’t it?

FWIW, if it gets to the point that my efforts are futile, he would go to counseling. That’s something I should maybe have mentioned, but I wanted to get insight from other people about how they handle sticky problems. If I posted ‘counseling’, I’d probably get a lot of ‘yes, do that’ posts, but I would prefer to see if there was something I could try before that.

He would move heaven and earth for me, if he could. But he’s imperfect, and this is one thing that needs work, and he doesn’t fully grasp it yet. I’m imperfect too, as well as being a total PITA at times. However, he has enough good qualities to make the relationship worth working towards, since the last perfect man was crucified about 2000 years ago.

 

[kage_ar]

I’ve purposefully ignored references to the annulment issue, and for several reasons feel it is not germane to the situation on hand. To explain why I think that way would take up several posts.

Catholic forum filled with Catholic people. It seems honest to look at the fact that one or both of you may be married to other people.

Everything has a spiritual side, and this situation is part of everything. We all need grace, and when have put ourselves outside of what the Church teaches, we hamper grace.

No need to explain the why’s and wherefores. Maybe ask your Priest if he thinks you should be dating.

 

[GraceDK]

I have been involved with a wonderful Catholic man for almost 2 years. We’re both working on our annulments and have plans for the future. We’re in our early 40s and the good Lord knows that we both have our share of faults.

But now, I am experiencing difficulties in handling our relationship. He’s got tons of great qualities, but 2 things are wearing on me. One is that he has a very negative outlook. He sees the worst in everyone and every situation. .
I find his cynicism very trying. In addition - I worry about slipping into unhealthy thought patterns.

The other issue is that his tone of voice is very strong - if he is irritated or annoyed, he gets a nastiness in his voice.(…)

Objectively speaking, I believe my SO and I are overall well suited to be together, and will have a good sacramental marriage (the annulment tribunals willing). And I know everyone has problems.

So my question is… how can I handle this? I know I must learn to cope better.

By the time we’re in our 40’s, it can be very hard to change and none of us are perfect. I’m not saying that if he were to change his tone and outlook that he would be perfect, but that I am able to deal with other quirks more effectively. What can I say that might influence him to want to change? I’ve tried honestly communicating with ‘I’ words, etc. If there was something about me that drives him crazy… LOL…“IF”. I know of a few things, and I do put forth effort into at least softening some of my sharp edges that cut into his peace of mind. It’s not easy.

I welcome all feedback on this. Our relationship, my peace of mind, and his happiness are very important to me, and solid Catholic advice seems to be the most promising avenue.

Thanks to all who reply.

Dear sister in Jesus…
three questions that are quite important:
How long have you two known each other?
Do you feel you cant find someone else if you leave this man?
Are you comitted to chastity?

for obvious reasons these questions are very important to explain your own motives in this relationship…

I was with a man who I feel strongly in love with… The intensity of my emotions made me unable to stay away from him even though I knew our relationship was headed nowhere…

As some months went by, and especially after we became real close (and too close) he started showing traits that were simply not acceptable and that I would not want to have with me into a marriage.
He was depressed for certain but would not get help for it… he would sometimes become really mean and say totally irrational things to me and at those times I felt very estranged from him… I wanted to “meet” him and help him then, but he was like a rock and his eyes were turned away from me… Sometimes he would even explode… also in front of other people…
I eventually realised I could not save him… I also realised that his behaviour pattern was abusive.
Some of his back ground was this:

• alcoholism and drug abuse
• a broken home with violence
• negativity and tendency to depression
• he did not want me to be with certain people and he spoke badly about many to me.
• he could not stand to discuss something where we did not agree but would start being irrational and scold me
• I hardly ever saw him smile.

I was very much in love… I can assure you. But inside I knew that even if we had matched in all other areas he had a gigantic problem… and a marriage would be in trouble if I chose to go ahead with that.
I could not imagine him as a dad… even if he dreamt about having a family.

I second the others here… wait with courting until you know you are both free.
If you do have an unchaste relationship then that releases hormones that blurs a person’s rational judgement when it comes to her partner… this is scientifically proven which also explains why many people stay with people that dont treat them well. Take “the love test”: test the love and the relationship by simply taking out the physical stuff.

I hope for your happyness and thank you for the wonderful testimony about what Christ has done for you hugs!

Ps.I too am not married and I too can have a tendency to melancholy and even depression. I therefore need a man who is a bit stronger psychologically than I am and who I can feel safe with.

 

[surfinpure]

Kathy,

If you knew me, you wouldn’t say that. Heck, I don’t even make excuses for myself, let alone a man. I’m giving background and thoughts I left out of my initial post.

It’s tough in these situations to give what could be the other person’s point of view. Yet, I feel honor-bound to try. Otherwise, all of this advice is useless, isn’t it?

FWIW, if it gets to the point that my efforts are futile, he would go to counseling. That’s something I should maybe have mentioned, but I wanted to get insight from other people about how they handle sticky problems. If I posted ‘counseling’, I’d probably get a lot of ‘yes, do that’ posts, but I would prefer to see if there was something I could try before that.

He would move heaven and earth for me, if he could. But he’s imperfect, and this is one thing that needs work, and he doesn’t fully grasp it yet. I’m imperfect too, as well as being a total PITA at times. However, he has enough good qualities to make the relationship worth working towards, since the last perfect man was crucified about 2000 years ago.

Sheeniac,

This is the most encouraging information yet! Based on what you’ve said all put together, I don’t see why you couldn’t work through this as a team. Sure, old patterns are hard to break, but it sounds like he really does love you and would be willing to work on it. You’re right – there are exactly zero perfect men out there to choose from. Every marriage consists of two broken people. But if you are moving along at the same speed toward the same goal, that is, Godliness, then you can help to make saints out of each other.

If and when you reach the point of readiness for marriage, I would think some good premarital counseling might be all that is needed to get things on the right track. In the meantime, maintaining your cool and fostering fruitful discussions are perhaps the best way to effect a positive change. Pray for the self-control and patience you will need to get through the hot spots, when you feel like blowing up or getting nasty. Remember, only Christ accomplishes good through us; we can do nothing of our own strength! But you’ve come such a long way, and this could well be the next step on your journey toward holiness.

Be encouraged!

mary

 

[whatevergirl]

I dunno, I have been married 17 years, and I am now 39–and it seems like dating has gotten a whole lot harder over the years. My husband courted me…treated me with deep consideration because he wanted me to know he thought I was special. While, we had a moment where we broke up for a short time, it was what we needed to see that we missed one another. But, we were considerate of one another, and part of courting, is to have someone treat you like you’re a very special person. (and you are!) Not saying that two people dating won’t have disputes/debates, but it shouldn’t be that you’re investing so much time and effort, as you would into a marriage, into a dating relationship that may or may not work. That is where I get confused on when enough is enough, when it comes to dating these days.

I believe that people can change, but they have to want to. If your bf wants to change, there is hope. I just look at some of the threads on here, and think to myself…wow, dating seems hard these days.

 

[1ke]

Not saying that two people dating won’t have disputes/debates, but it shouldn’t be that you’re investing so much time and effort, as you would into a marriage, into a dating relationship that may or may not work.

BINGO.

This is where I get really frustrated with people-- both IRL and online. Boyfriends are not husbands. Dating is not marriage.

There is absolutely no reason to invest emotionally in someone else’s serious emotional/ psychological/ financial/ behavioral/ interpersonal/ and whatever-else issues at the dating stage. In fact, it’s highly counter productive.

These types of issues need to be solved by the individual, not by a dating partner. If they can’t, won’t, or simply haven’t-- well, that is not an indicator they are a “bad” person… perhaps merely not the “right” person to contemplate marriage with!

That is where I get confused on when enough is enough, when it comes to dating these days.

I don’t think *you *are the one who is confused about dating or its purpose at all.

 

[Sheeniac]

BINGO.

This is where I get really frustrated with people-- both IRL and online. Boyfriends are not husbands. Dating is not marriage.

There is absolutely no reason to invest emotionally in someone else’s serious emotional/ psychological/ financial/ behavioral/ interpersonal/ and whatever-else issues at the dating stage. In fact, it’s highly counter productive.

These types of issues need to be solved by the individual, not by a dating partner. If they can’t, won’t, or simply haven’t-- well, that is not an indicator they are a “bad” person… perhaps merely not the “right” person to contemplate marriage with!

I don’t think *you *are the one who is confused about dating or its purpose at all.

Oh come on now… The point of my dating is that I am looking for a marriage partner.

We’ve been together going on 2 years. People get married in less time than that. I view this as a time to see if problems can be worked out. Serious dating is when the courtship is created.

I dated others while dating him (early on). I stopped when I thought I had found a good guy. You progress on the road to marriage… it’s not an either/or.

I’ve found some things that are problematic. I live in the real world. EVERYONE has issues. My first husband… well, I’ll get into my annulment here. I was away from the Church for 25 years. I married a non-Christian (I think, who knows…) who had serious problems that I was unaware of at the time of marriage. We had lived together prior to marriage… I think we were together about 2 years before getting married. I have since come back to the Church and am in the process of getting the ‘short form’ - lack of form. It’s a formality.

Anyway, to make a VERY long story short, after we got married, I discovered that he had issues that I had told him upfront were non-negotiables. Basically - he was a drug user and a liar. And a darn good liar at that. He started to let down his guard after we were married.

My perspective was… drug use was a non-negotiable when we first met, and it still was. It would have been one thing if he had fallen into it years into marriage - then I would have stood by him. But… he hid it from me and our marriage was based on a charade. Thus, I initiated a divorce. I wish I could have found it out beforehand…

Now before anyone replies wondering how I didn’t catch the drug use before, I travel a lot for work, and I both need a lot of space and give a lot of space.

But back to my point… dating is a continuum. If I was 3 months into this relationship, a certain level of commitment might be inappropriate. But at some point, you have to look at things differently.

I was quite the dater in my youth, so know that of which I speak!

 

[whatevergirl]

Hi Sheeniac;

Sometimes, when we post things, and read through ‘our thoughts,’ we often times come to a good resolution to our problems. I think that on message boards, your own answer can come from ‘posting out loud,’ as I like to call it. Did we help in any way?

 

[jmcrae]

FWIW, if it gets to the point that my efforts are futile, he would go to counseling.

“Your efforts” meaning what?

Right now, you’re his friend; nothing more. Neither of you is free to date, so it’s not even a dating relationship, yet.

It’s not your job to counsel him, or to make him better. He is who he is, depression and all. The depression can be a quirk that you work around in your friendship, or it can be a reason to move on and have different friends, but it’s not something that you can change. It might not even be something that he can change, but if change is to come, it must come from him.

 

[GhostMan]

I agree with the OP, dating is a process whereby one gets to know the other more and more and - if the relationship is leading to marriage - the commitment level goes up. Certainly, if there are big red flags, then stopping the relationship is important. If you’re just discovering that you’re dating a real live person and not a man from a cheezy romance novel, however, then you may have to decide if the warts are worth the frog.

Pretending that there is absolutely no commitment right up until marriage is asinine. Certainly, the commitment is no where close to the bonds of sacred marriage, but it is also more than, say, you owe a video rental.

If she is closing her eyes and pretending everything is rosy, then I’d say she’s an idiot. That’s not what I see here, though, from the bits were been told.

An abusive man, a drug user, a cheater, a manipulator, a liar, a fraud - any of these types of men should be terminated if it is discovered in a dating period. Having real life problems, though, does not seem like a show-stopper.

Sure, it is easy and fun to slam down on a poster with a holier-than-thou righteousness and an all knowing condemnation of her potential husband. Might not be as usseful to the OP, but it would be more fun, I admit.

 

[Sheeniac]

“Your efforts” meaning what?

Right now, you’re his friend; nothing more. Neither of you is free to date, so it’s not even a dating relationship, yet.

It’s not your job to counsel him, or to make him better. He is who he is, depression and all. The depression can be a quirk that you work around in your friendship, or it can be a reason to move on and have different friends, but it’s not something that you can change. It might not even be something that he can change, but if change is to come, it must come from him.

He’s not depressed. He does not need personal counseling.

My efforts = me saying “Hey - we have a problem here, how are we going to solve it?” and seeing if the issue can be resolved.

In terms of being free to date, well, that’s another issue. Listen, we’re not all educated Catholics. I was a new Catholic when we met. I wasn’t aware of the need for an annulment prior to dating by the time we started dating. AND… I would bet most Catholics are even aware of it. I know he wasn’t either.

FWIW, that point wasn’t even mentioned in the annulment workshop we went to before given by the diocese’s annulment point man. And I’m not in a small diocese. I could go on with some things I knew to be … well… thought to be less than true at that workshop, but that’s the story for another post.

My annulment is a formality, and his has very strong grounds. I didn’t post this as a request to ask opinions on whether we should be dating, opinions on my annulment, etc. This is why I left it out. I appreciate feedback, but would prefer that it remain on the topic on which I originally posted.

 

[Sheeniac]

Hi Sheeniac;

Sometimes, when we post things, and read through ‘our thoughts,’ we often times come to a good resolution to our problems. I think that on message boards, your own answer can come from ‘posting out loud,’ as I like to call it. Did we help in any way?

Yes. I hate to come across as rejecting well-reasoned advice. The fact that we may not be good for each other long term is something I have kept in my mind. I’m a realist, and wishing things were one way and not another doesn’t work, not even in the short term.

But there’s a fine line between that and jumping ship at the first sign of a problem.

 

[whatevergirl]

He’s not depressed. He does not need personal counseling.

My efforts = me saying “Hey - we have a problem here, how are we going to solve it?” and seeing if the issue can be resolved.

In terms of being free to date, well, that’s another issue. Listen, we’re not all educated Catholics. I was a new Catholic when we met. I wasn’t aware of the need for an annulment prior to dating by the time we started dating. AND… I would bet most Catholics are even aware of it. I know he wasn’t either.

**Now that you are aware of it though, does it make you wonder if you should be in this relationship? I ask because there definitely some light bulb moments for my husband and me since joining this forum, and while I was grateful to know the Truth, it sometimes can be hard to live it out. I actually started another thread on this, because I never knew that one couldn’t date while waiting on an annulment. Interesting. Sorry–back to OT. LOL **

FWIW, that point wasn’t even mentioned in the annulment workshop we went to before given by the diocese’s annulment point man. And I’m not in a small diocese. I could go on with some things I knew to be … well… thought to be less than true at that workshop, but that’s the story for another post.

My annulment is a formality, and his has very strong grounds. I didn’t post this as a request to ask opinions on whether we should be dating, opinions on my annulment, etc. This is why I left it out. I appreciate feedback, but would prefer that it remain on the topic on which I originally posted.

 

[Sheeniac]

Whatevergirl, this is a serious issue of contemplation for me, I will be honest. Beyond that, I cannot get into more details.

The kicker is that when he first got divorced many years ago, he went to a meeting about annulments. No one ever told him that he should get one done before dating. I’ve told him that things would be so much easier if he had just had done it then.

Perhaps some of the American priests, bishops and canon lawyers believe they are showing compassion to Catholics when they sugar coat things, but…

At a party this weekend, someone asked about the annulments. A good friend of mine actually left the Church over the issue. Terribly sad - IMO, it was more of a misunderstanding than anything else since they never even ended up applying for one. And she is still very angry about it.

Another friend’s mother (now deceased) had a terrible episode with divorce and annulment years ago.

Both of my friends are now very bitter ex-Catholics.

Sigh…

I really think I should start an annulment thread.

 

[whatevergirl]

Whatevergirl, this is a serious issue of contemplation for me, I will be honest. Beyond that, I cannot get into more details.

The kicker is that when he first got divorced many years ago, he went to a meeting about annulments. No one ever told him that he should get one done before dating. I’ve told him that things would be so much easier if he had just had done it then.

Perhaps some of the American priests, bishops and canon lawyers believe they are showing compassion to Catholics when they sugar coat things, but…

At a party this weekend, someone asked about the annulments. A good friend of mine actually left the Church over the issue. Terribly sad - IMO, it was more of a misunderstanding than anything else since they never even ended up applying for one. And she is still very angry about it.

Another friend’s mother (now deceased) had a terrible episode with divorce and annulment years ago.

Both of my friends are now very bitter ex-Catholics.

Sigh…

I really think I should start an annulment thread.

I think what is important when we come back to our faith, if we have been away for years, or whether we want to become more fully devout–is that we take baby steps. It is hard to bite off everything that the Church teaches all at once, and do an about face…but as long as we as Catholics try to live out the Truth, step by step each day…we will eventually see the why’s and the reasons behind the Church’s teachings on things. I can attest to that, and this board has helped me considerably. I asked you that question, because my sister is dating someone, seriously, and has not had an annulment, nor is considering it. She and I have discussed it, and she doesn’t feel that she would be granted one. That being said, she continues to feel uneasiness when dating someone for a while…and I sometimes wonder if that is the Holy Spirit tapping her on the shoulder, telling her that she should put dating on hold until she goes through an annulment. I think the Holy Spirit would sound more eloquent than that, lol but you get the idea. I don’t diminish what you’re saying about this man you’re dating, but…as you continue along the path of dating knowing what you now know…it can become hard to continue dating, etc…if you know that this wouldn’t be the right thing. Ah, if we could all rewind time, right and know what we now know.

I wish you well nonetheless…and I think it’s great that you are growing in your faith.

 

[1ke]

It is clear through your posts that you want to make this work at just about any cost.

I re-read your OP to see if perhaps I had misread or misunderstood. After all, you titled your thread “the end of my rope”.

That indicated to me you’ve already tried a number of things to change the situation and to get him to change-- but perhaps that is not the case. You also indicated you were concerned about its effect on your hard-won changes in your own life, your depression, etc. ’

So, yes, my feedback reflected those elements of your original post.

At no time did I say “dump him.” Rather I said that it might be time to **consider **he’s not for you. “Consider” and “kick him to the curb” are two very different things.

What type of advice, specifically, are you looking for in this thread?

 

[1ke]

Having real life problems, though, does not seem like a show-stopper.

Everyone has real life problems. Some are show-stoppers and some are not.

For the OP-- who has already stated she battled depression, negativity, and defeating behaviors in her own life-- a person who has those same traits and has the potential (as she stated) to impact her own state of mind and reverse her hard-won mental health-- well, YES that person’s real life problems could be a show-stopper FOR HER. For someone else who is less fragile in that particular area, maybe not. Maybe not even for her, but she sure does have some serious thinking to do if he cannot change.

Sure, it is easy and fun to slam down on a poster with a holier-than-thou righteousness and an all knowing condemnation of her potential husband. Might not be as usseful to the OP, but it would be more fun, I admit.

No one here has slammed down on a poster with a holier-than-thou attitude, and I don’t know any of the posters here who would see any joy or “fun” in doing so.