Nehemia Gordon

[ApostleSean]

I am having difficulty in a debate with a follower of this guy’s teachings. It seems as though this may be the beginning of a new heresy (can I coin “Gordonism”?) that sort of crosses Judaising with Arianism.

Basically, he is a translator of the Dead Sea Scrolls who believes that Jesus instructed us to follow the Jewish Law. The only real description I could find online was this: “If you have any doubts about whether Jesus instructed us to follow what the Pharisees or Rabbis of Modern Judaism say, be sure to read his book The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus.”

He claims to be a Karaite Jew, but has been rebuffed by that community here: torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Matt23.3Gordon.pdf

Does anyone else have any information on this individual’s teachings?

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I am having difficulty in a debate with a follower of this guy’s teachings. It seems as though this may be the beginning of a new heresy (can I coin “Gordonism”?) that sort of crosses Judaising with Arianism.

Basically, he is a translator of the Dead Sea Scrolls who believes that Jesus instructed us to follow the Jewish Law. The only real description I could find online was this: “If you have any doubts about whether Jesus instructed us to follow what the Pharisees or Rabbis of Modern Judaism say, be sure to read his book The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus.”

He claims to be a Karaite Jew, but has been rebuffed by that community here: torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Matt23.3Gordon.pdf

Does anyone else have any information on this individual’s teachings?

Here’s his argument: youtube.com/watch?v=tddCNY6U77Y I certainly didn’t watch the whole thing but you can get the gist in about the first 10 mins. Jesus was speaking to Jewish disciples; non-Jews are not bound by Israelite law, as the New Testament makes abundantly clear.

Further, I don’t think any legitimate scholar, Jewish or non-Jewish, would say that legislation from, say, the Shulhan Aruk can be retrojected back to the first century, or that modern rabbinic Jews and all of their customs and practices = Pharisees of the New Testament. This type of conflation was used by pre-world war II German biblical scholars to demonstrate a decline or corruption in Israelite religion–with notably disastrous results. The man basically he has a bone to pick with rabbinic Judaism (as a self-identified Karaite) and he wants you to have a bone to pick with it too.

His article on the name of God = Jehovah is basically bunk: karaite-korner.org/yhwh_2.pdf

 

[1AugustSon7]

I am having difficulty in a debate with a follower of this guy’s teachings. It seems as though this may be the beginning of a new heresy (can I coin “Gordonism”?) that sort of crosses Judaising with Arianism.

Basically, he is a translator of the Dead Sea Scrolls who believes that Jesus instructed us to follow the Jewish Law. The only real description I could find online was this: “If you have any doubts about whether Jesus instructed us to follow what the Pharisees or Rabbis of Modern Judaism say, be sure to read his book The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus.”

He claims to be a Karaite Jew, but has been rebuffed by that community here: torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Matt23.3Gordon.pdf

Does anyone else have any information on this individual’s teachings?

This is practically no different than Seventh Day Adventism.

 

[live_for_Him]

I am having difficulty in a debate with a follower of this guy’s teachings. It seems as though this may be the beginning of a new heresy (can I coin “Gordonism”?) that sort of crosses Judaising with Arianism.

Basically, he is a translator of the Dead Sea Scrolls who believes that Jesus instructed us to follow the Jewish Law. The only real description I could find online was this: “If you have any doubts about whether Jesus instructed us to follow what the Pharisees or Rabbis of Modern Judaism say, be sure to read his book The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus.”

He claims to be a Karaite Jew, but has been rebuffed by that community here: torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Matt23.3Gordon.pdf

Does anyone else have any information on this individual’s teachings?

He openly admits that he does not follow Jesus as he does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah Christ. He is trying to be a strict follower of the Old Covenant Scriptures without any man-made additions (oral law). He is trying to use the writings of Christianity to direct Christians and Jews to the Law of Moses.

 

[VeiledCatholic]

Be very, very, careful of teachings / preachings / books / website articles, etc like these. I just came out of 4 years of being a “Torah Observant Messianic Jewish” follower. You can’t debate these folks or try to reason with them (people tried to reason with me and it fell on deaf ears for the longest time). I’m so glad as a non Jewish, Gentile follower of the LORD, I am set free from that stuff. They really are misleading many many folks down a dangerous road.

 

[mercytruth]

Be very, very, careful of teachings / preachings / books / website articles, etc like these. I just came out of 4 years of being a “Torah Observant Messianic Jewish” follower. You can’t debate these folks or try to reason with them (people tried to reason with me and it fell on deaf ears for the longest time). I’m so glad as a non Jewish, Gentile follower of the LORD, I am set free from that stuff. They really are misleading many many folks down a dangerous road.

Thank God that you have been set free from this deception!

Nehemiah Gordon has had associations with certain individuals (knowingly, or unknowingly) who have, or have had gnostic, cabbalistic, or Rosicrucian interests:

unitedisrael.org/blog/?s=Nehemia+Gordon&search=Search

This organization was founded by David Horowitz ,and the current president is James Tabor

unitedisrael.org/blog/about/
unitedisrael.org/blog/category/special-events/

James Tabor in just one of his blogs:
jamestabor.com/2007/03/30/the-resurrection-of-mary-magdalene/

David Horowitz’s most disturbing association with Moses Guibbory:
deuceofclubs.com/books/145_horowitz.htm

 

[live_for_Him]

Be very, very, careful of teachings / preachings / books / website articles, etc like these. I just came out of 4 years of being a “Torah Observant Messianic Jewish” follower. You can’t debate these folks or try to reason with them (people tried to reason with me and it fell on deaf ears for the longest time). I’m so glad as a non Jewish, Gentile follower of the LORD, I am set free from that stuff. They really are misleading many many folks down a dangerous road.

I am not a true follower of his or his teachings, but I enjoy hearing him discuss Pharisaic Judaism, what little I have heard from him. The Scriptures are clear, the Law of Moses is no longer in place as a requirement for salvation.

 

[mercytruth]

I am not a true follower of his or his teachings, but I enjoy hearing him discuss Pharisaic Judaism, what little I have heard from him. The Scriptures are clear, the Law of Moses is no longer in place as a requirement for salvation.

I was once affiliated with a Messianic Jewish Congregation. I learned much, and even volunteered in Israel for the love of the Jewish people. I never did get the complete view of the Palestinian Christian community with regard to secular Zionism while associated with this congregation.

It took some books recommended to me by a Jewish Christian friend that helped me to see a more complete picture. One of them is Blood Brothers by Elias Chacour. I came back to the Catholic church because she has the Holy Eucharist, which is a fulfillment of the prophecy of Malachi.

Shalom.

 

[live_for_Him]

I was once affiliated with a Messianic Jewish Congregation. I learned much, and even volunteered in Israel for the love of the Jewish people. I never did get the complete view of the Palestinian Christian community with regard to secular Zionism while associated with this congregation.

It took some books recommended to me by a Jewish Christian friend that helped me to see a more complete picture. One of them is Blood Brothers by Elias Chacour. I came back to the Catholic church because she has the Holy Eucharist, which is a fulfillment of the prophecy of Malachi.

Shalom.

Messianic Jewish is close to Messianic Christian, but the Law of Moses is not required, and no one is looked down on if they do not feel led to be keeping it. It is great to be keeping the Moadim/Feasts of YHWH, though, as they foretell coming events (Col. 3:16-17 better in the KJV than the NIV, I haven’t checked the Catholic Bibles)

I see Malachi 1:11 being fulfilled in the Millennium.

So what do you believe is the complete view of the Palestinian Christian community?

 

[mercytruth]

Messianic Jewish is close to Messianic Christian, but the Law of Moses is not required, and no one is looked down on if they do not feel led to be keeping it. It is great to be keeping the Moadim/Feasts of YHWH, though, as they foretell coming events (Col. 3:16-17 better in the KJV than the NIV, I haven’t checked the Catholic Bibles)

I see Malachi 1:11 being fulfilled in the Millennium.

So what do you believe is the complete view of the Palestinian Christian community?

Several of the early church fathers saw Malachi 1:11 as fulfilled by holy communion, and by the incense of holy prayers. Such as Justin Martyr (110-165 AD), Bishop Ireneaus of Lyons (120-202 AD), and Bishop Cyprian and martyr of Carthage (200-268 AD).

Bishop Irenaeus writes, "Those who have become acquainted with the secondary consitutions of the apostles, are aware that the Lord instituted a new oblation in the new covenant, according to Malachi the prophet. For, 'from the rising of the sun even to the setting my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice." (fragment xxxvii of his lost writings).

We have an early liturgy of the church attributed and inspired by St.Mark of the gospel:
"We offer this reasonable and bloodless sacrifice, which all nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun, from the north and the south, present to Thee, O Lord; for great is The name among all peoples, and all places are incense, sacrifice, and oblation offered to Thy holy name." (The Divine Liturgy of the Holy Apostle and Evangelist Mark, the Disciple of the Holy Peter, Apostolic Constitutions).

Notice, that the Jewish apostle, St. Mark, includes the direction of north and south in this prayer, eventhough these directions of north and south are not found in Mal. 1:11 (only east,west). Knowing about the feasts, Live for Him, you should know that during Sukkot the palm frond is waved with a blessing in the four directions of east, west, north and south.

In Blood Brothers, Elias Chacour gives a personal account of what happened to his village in Galilee which he and his family trace to the first century. They were driven out by the secular Zionists and scattered. Prior to the arrival of secular Zionism, these Melkite Christians were living peaceably with Orthodox Jews and Muslims. This is not the way of G-d to destroy a peaceable village who were serving Him. You can not imagine what this book and others recommended to me by a Jewish Christian did to my personal notions as a Christian for Zionism.

 

[ApostleSean]

Be very, very, careful of teachings / preachings / books / website articles, etc like these. I just came out of 4 years of being a “Torah Observant Messianic Jewish” follower. You can’t debate these folks or try to reason with them (people tried to reason with me and it fell on deaf ears for the longest time). I’m so glad as a non Jewish, Gentile follower of the LORD, I am set free from that stuff. They really are misleading many many folks down a dangerous road.

That’s been my problem, none of his arguments make sense and he’s really all over the place.

Thanks for the insight and God be praised that you’re out of that mess.

 

[ApostleSean]

Thanks for the reading recommendations.

I had noticed a similarity to Gnosticism as well, but sort of a strange version of it.

I appreciate all the (name removed by moderator)ut and please pray that I make some rational arguments that do not fall on deaf ears.

 

[live_for_Him]

Several of the early church fathers saw Malachi 1:11 as fulfilled by holy communion, and by the incense of holy prayers. Such as Justin Martyr (110-165 AD), Bishop Ireneaus of Lyons (120-202 AD), and Bishop Cyprian and martyr of Carthage (200-268 AD).

Bishop Irenaeus writes, "Those who have become acquainted with the secondary consitutions of the apostles, are aware that the Lord instituted a new oblation in the new covenant, according to Malachi the prophet. For, 'from the rising of the sun even to the setting my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice." (fragment xxxvii of his lost writings).

We have an early liturgy of the church attributed and inspired by St.Mark of the gospel:
"We offer this reasonable and bloodless sacrifice, which all nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun, from the north and the south, present to Thee, O Lord; for great is The name among all peoples, and all places are incense, sacrifice, and oblation offered to Thy holy name." (The Divine Liturgy of the Holy Apostle and Evangelist Mark, the Disciple of the Holy Peter, Apostolic Constitutions).

Notice, that the Jewish apostle, St. Mark, includes the direction of north and south in this prayer, eventhough these directions of north and south are not found in Mal. 1:11 (only east,west). Knowing about the feasts, Live for Him, you should know that during Sukkot the palm frond is waved with a blessing in the four directions of east, west, north and south.

In Blood Brothers, Elias Chacour gives a personal account of what happened to his village in Galilee which he and his family trace to the first century. They were driven out by the secular Zionists and scattered. Prior to the arrival of secular Zionism, these Melkite Christians were living peaceably with Orthodox Jews and Muslims. This is not the way of G-d to destroy a peaceable village who were serving Him. You can not imagine what this book and others recommended to me by a Jewish Christian did to my personal notions as a Christian for Zionism.

I see a fulfillment of Mal. 1:11 now, but a greater one for the Millennium (Zech. 14).

We do not support the bad actions of secular Zionists. Secular Zionism is not the end all, but it is God setting up for the End Times, bringing Jews to Him (Rom. 11) and having a nation in place for the nations of the world to come against (Zech.12, 14).

 

[mercytruth]

I see a fulfillment of Mal. 1:11 now, but a greater one for the Millennium (Zech. 14).

We do not support the bad actions of secular Zionists. Secular Zionism is not the end all, but it is God setting up for the End Times, bringing Jews to Him (Rom. 11) and having a nation in place for the nations of the world to come against (Zech.12, 14).

Zechariah 14 has more to do with the keeping of Sukkot, eventhough St.Mark may be referencing Sukkot in his liturgy. As you probably know, Sukkot will be the one Moadim that will yet remain unfulfilled, once the millenium begins. It may be looking forward to God tabernacling among us as the book of Revelation states, or as St.Paul says, 'that God may be all in all".

As far as God setting up for the End Times, I would be a bit wary of that, especially if Freemasonry has been involved with Zionism.

God’s peace be with you.

 

[live_for_Him]

Zechariah 14 has more to do with the keeping of Sukkot, eventhough St.Mark may be referencing Sukkot in his liturgy. As you probably know, Sukkot will be the one Moadim that will yet remain unfulfilled, once the millenium begins. It may be looking forward to God tabernacling among us as the book of Revelation states, or as St.Paul says, 'that God may be all in all".

As far as God setting up for the End Times, I would be a bit wary of that, especially if Freemasonry has been involved with Zionism.

God’s peace be with you.

In understanding the fulfillment of YHWH’s moadim, Sukkot and the Millennium go hand in hand, just as you have suggested. Zechariah 14 is not more about the keeping of Sukkot. 14:1-15 are about the events surrounding the end-time battle over Jerusalem at the end of this age (just before the Millennium events), and they are huge! The events of Zechariah 14 have not yet been fulfilled, just like some prophecies in Daniel. All of the Old Covenant prophecies have not yet been fulfilled.

God placed the Jewish people back in Israel for His end-time purposes. God uses both the good and the bad to fulfill His purposes.

We are not secular Zionists. We are for the things that God is for, and against the things that He is against. Only as it relates to the purposes of God are we in general considered an element of Christian Zionism when it comes to helping and supporting physical Israel.
Of course we have nothing to do with the wrong actions of Israel or others supporting Israel. We are Zionists in the sense that Christ followers are the spiritual Israel of God and will be those who in the end will have possession of Israel, as they will be the only possessors of the Earth (along with all those resurrected). All those who are not following God through Christ at the return of Christ will be removed from the Earth (2 Thess. 1:5-10; Mt. 13:24-52; 22:1-14; ch. 25; Lk. 19:11-27) and this includes all of the physical Jews who are not following Him.

Our support is for the nation as a whole (we support our nation supporting Israel, especially in protecting itself) and also the hurting people and in working to save the lost.

I’m sure that you are well-acquainted with the miracles that took place in the Jewish people re-establishing Israel and protecting it (I should rather say God doing this).

There are several end-times prophecies about the nations coming against Israel. Revelation speaks of wars, even around Jerusalem. The fight is over Jerusalem and it has really been in process, off and on, for many years. It is claimed by Jews, Christians and Muslims. But, as I said above, it will be for only those following Him (2 Thess. 1:5-10; Mt. 13:24-52; 22:1-14; ch. 25; Lk. 19:11-27), regardless of race or ethnicity, and the resurrected (Rev. 20:4-6; Mat. 19:28).

Our goal is in following and obeying and pleasing God. We do not require everyone to be believing our views concerning the End Times or supporting Israel. We just strive to be serving and pleasing God, saving the lost, and being prepared for His return.

 

[mercytruth]

In understanding the fulfillment of YHWH’s moadim, Sukkot and the Millennium go hand in hand, just as you have suggested. Zechariah 14 is not more about the keeping of Sukkot. 14:1-15 are about the events surrounding the end-time battle over Jerusalem at the end of this age (just before the Millennium events), and they are huge! The events of Zechariah 14 have not yet been fulfilled, just like some prophecies in Daniel. All of the Old Covenant prophecies have not yet been fulfilled.

God placed the Jewish people back in Israel for His end-time purposes. God uses both the good and the bad to fulfill His purposes.

We are not secular Zionists. We are for the things that God is for, and against the things that He is against. Only as it relates to the purposes of God are we in general considered an element of Christian Zionism when it comes to helping and supporting physical Israel.
Of course we have nothing to do with the wrong actions of Israel or others supporting Israel. We are Zionists in the sense that Christ followers are the spiritual Israel of God and will be those who in the end will have possession of Israel, as they will be the only possessors of the Earth (along with all those resurrected). All those who are not following God through Christ at the return of Christ will be removed from the Earth (2 Thess. 1:5-10; Mt. 13:24-52; 22:1-14; ch. 25; Lk. 19:11-27) and this includes all of the physical Jews who are not following Him.

Our support is for the nation as a whole (we support our nation supporting Israel, especially in protecting itself) and also the hurting people and in working to save the lost.

I’m sure that you are well-acquainted with the miracles that took place in the Jewish people re-establishing Israel and protecting it (I should rather say God doing this).

There are several end-times prophecies about the nations coming against Israel. Revelation speaks of wars, even around Jerusalem. The fight is over Jerusalem and it has really been in process, off and on, for many years. It is claimed by Jews, Christians and Muslims. But, as I said above, it will be for only those following Him (2 Thess. 1:5-10; Mt. 13:24-52; 22:1-14; ch. 25; Lk. 19:11-27), regardless of race or ethnicity, and the resurrected (Rev. 20:4-6; Mat. 19:28).

Our goal is in following and obeying and pleasing God. We do not require everyone to be believing our views concerning the End Times or supporting Israel. We just strive to be serving and pleasing God, saving the lost, and being prepared for His return.

What happens after the millenium could be the fulfillment of Gog and Magog. Prophecy is not something revealed to everyone. St. Peter was the only individual that God revealed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. Even then, he did not understand that Christ had to suffer and die for our sins and be raised again.

 

[live_for_Him]

What happens after the millenium could be the fulfillment of Gog and Magog.

This is what the Scriptures say (Rev. 20:8).

Prophecy is not something revealed to everyone. St. Peter was the only individual that God revealed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. Even then, he did not understand that Christ had to suffer and die for our sins and be raised again.

Of course no one understands it all, just as Paul said in 1 Cor. 13:9-10, “For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.” (NIV)

God does not reveal only to the leaders of the Catholic Church. God has never limited His revelation to only one person.

He gives revelation to whom He desires. He gave the “Revelation” to John.

And Paul said that God/Christ gives the Church prophets (Eph. 4:11).

 

[mercytruth]

This is what the Scriptures say (Rev. 20:8).

Of course no one understands it all, just as Paul said in 1 Cor. 13:9-10, “For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.” (NIV)

God does not reveal only to the leaders of the Catholic Church. God has never limited His revelation to only one person.

He gives revelation to whom He desires. He gave the “Revelation” to John.

And Paul said that God/Christ gives the Church prophets (Eph. 4:11).

Yes, God gave revelation to Jesus Christ which Jesus Christ gave to John through his angel. One of the basic understandings of the early church fathers, is that no one takes upon themselves an anointing of a ministry, (such as the prophetic) without being anointed and ordained by the duly anointed bishop, or pastor of a local congregation.

All too often, it easy to assume that we have an anointing from God, but it has not been sanctioned by the duly anointed leaders of the church. One can argue whether the constitutions established by the early church are carried out today, and for this reason we have such division within the church. This may be correct, but I would not know how to resolve this.

So speaking for myself, whatever I have written on CA is my perception of the scriptures, and the early church fathers. It has no weight within the Catholic church, only the duly appointed magesterium has that authority.

The difficult part for me, is to keep my mouth shut, eventhough I believe our blessed God and Father has revealed and opened the holy scriptures, and the early church fathers to me, that does not necessarily mean what I believe is true, or even from God.

St.John of the Cross has some very profound things to say about spiritual growth, and the various pitfalls, deceptions, and sufferings along the way. I would recommend the Dark Night to you if you are so inclined. He speaks of the dark night of the senses, and the dark night of the spirit. Some day, I hope we all realize that our Lord Jesus Christ went before us by going through the darkest night of soul, when he took upon himself our sins.

Shalom to you in your spiritual sojourning here on earth.

 

[live_for_Him]

Yes, God gave revelation to Jesus Christ which Jesus Christ gave to John through his angel. One of the basic understandings of the early church fathers, is that no one takes upon themselves an anointing of a ministry, (such as the prophetic) without being anointed and ordained by the duly anointed bishop, or pastor of a local congregation.

All too often, it easy to assume that we have an anointing from God, but it has not been sanctioned by the duly anointed leaders of the church. One can argue whether the constitutions established by the early church are carried out today, and for this reason we have such division within the church. This may be correct, but I would not know how to resolve this.

So speaking for myself, whatever I have written on CA is my perception of the scriptures, and the early church fathers. It has no weight within the Catholic church, only the duly appointed magesterium has that authority.

The difficult part for me, is to keep my mouth shut, eventhough I believe our blessed God and Father has revealed and opened the holy scriptures, and the early church fathers to me, that does not necessarily mean what I believe is true, or even from God.

St.John of the Cross has some very profound things to say about spiritual growth, and the various pitfalls, deceptions, and sufferings along the way. I would recommend the Dark Night to you if you are so inclined. He speaks of the dark night of the senses, and the dark night of the spirit. Some day, I hope we all realize that our Lord Jesus Christ went before us by going through the darkest night of soul, when he took upon himself our sins.

Shalom to you in your spiritual sojourning here on earth.

The Scriptures and prophecies can be understood (2 Tim. 2:15).

God is in control of more than we understand (still there is free moral agency).

 

[mercytruth]

The Scriptures and prophecies can be understood (2 Tim. 2:15).

God is in control of more than we understand (still there is free moral agency).

Whether you know or not, the early church structure was patterned after the Sanhedrin.

There were elders known as ‘presbyters’ who were scriptural advisors to the bishop, or pastor of the church. Just as there were 70 elders of the Sanhedrin who gave scriptural interpretation advice to the High Priest.

Paul’s letter was written to Timothy who became a bishop.

shalom.