Neo Catechumenal Way coming to our parish?

[Annabelle_Marie]

They will not come unless invited.

Really? You know that for sure? Positively? It’s interesting that you know more then people in charge at our parish…

 

[Oneofthewomen]

They will not come unless invited.

This is my understanding also.
I really do not think that a Bishop would allow something to happen in a parish if the priest was not on board.

This thread, and others like it are very disturbing to me.

The Magisterium has spoken. I don’t have to like it, I don’t have to participate in something I don’t like, but I do have to let the Magisterium do it’s job.

This 2nd guessing of the Holy Father, Bishop’s & Priest’s is not Catholic. As a matter of fact, thinking that I know more than the Church, and that I am correct and that the Church is not reeks of “Protestant-ism”

 

[YoungTradCath]

This is my understanding also.
I really do not think that a Biship would allow something to happen in a parish if the priest was not on board.

This thread, and others like it are very disturbing to me.

The Magisterium has spoken. I don’t have to like it, I don’t have to participate in something I don’t like, but I do have to let the Magisterium do it’s job.

This 2nd guessing of the Holy Father, Bishop’s & Priest’s is not Catholic. As a matter of fact, thinking that I know more than the Church, and that I am correct and that the Church is not reeks of “Protestant-ism”

But we’re relieved now since their liturgies were not approved, only their catechesis, and we’ve got it on several good sources documented here. So it’s all good now.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

This is my understanding also.
I really do not think that a Bishop would allow something to happen in a parish if the priest was not on board.

This thread, and others like it are very disturbing to me.

The Magisterium has spoken.

This 2nd guessing of the Holy Father, Bishop’s & Priest’s is not Catholic. As a matter of fact, thinking that I know more than the Church, and that I am correct and that the Church is not reeks of “Protestant-ism”

Excuse me but you are being very rude! I am trying to find out the facts. The fact is so are the people in charge at the parish…no one right now is sure how they ended up here. The fact of the matter is we do have one VERY VERY busy priest! I highly doubt that he went out and invited him…I will ask him when he comes to dinner. Our Bishop is almost to retirement…next month. Could you concede that he might not be as involved…

This all happened too quickly…they wanted to meet with all the small groups but as fast as they did it…there wasn’t time for that…and they would not leave messages so something is not quiet right…just wanting to find out what is what…you can’t find it out from their website which is why I asked questions here.

You are assuming things about me that are untrue and that is uncharitable No where did I say I know more then the Church…bottom line is you do not know all the facts either…and making assumptions and statements like you did makes me mad!

 

[Itari]

From my experience these things never get off the ground without the involvement of the priest. Who approached who first is, i think, in the end irrelevant because if they are actively going further then the pastor of the parish must have shown some interest in the presence of the community. Since, as you said, the pastor of your parish and that of a neighboring parish are friends then it is possible that one had a positive experience and thought to share with his friend. If the pastor had said no then the catechesis would not happen. This is because usually there is a significant amount of involvement required from the pastor and the group responsible for that catechesis should think twice about beginning even with a hesitant pastor. I think that it would be a good idea to ask him why.

Now a second issue that has propped up is that of the liturgy. I would like to apologize in advance to youngtradcath but he is mistaken when he says

Another relief that nothing further liturgically-wise has been conceded:

To prove so i will post the two recent posts i made recently on a recent topic. Bear with me as it is lengthy.

Filii_Dei:

Itari;8875553:

This isnt quite what has happened… The ‘awful’ liturgy IS already approved, so it needs no more. Actually the pope said it this time also to celebrate according to the liturgical books with the exceptions outlined. This, however, was an additional approval for the different rites at the stages throughout the way.

I’m not too sure what you mean by that. As far as I’m aware, their liturgical books were never approved. The only permission for them to alter the rubrics of the mass was to shift the sign of peace to be before the presentation of the gifts, as well as permitting communion under both species, both of which are still subject to assent by the local ordinary. In truth, there is only really one change, since communion under both species has always been permitted (with approval from the local ordinary).

On the other hand, their other practices such as sitting during communion, passing the chalice, and et cetera have not been permitted.

Itari:

Article 13 of the '08 statute says the following:

§ 1. The Eucharist is essential to the Neocatechumenate, since this is a post-baptismal catechumenate lived in small communities.47 In fact, the Eucharist completes Christian initiation.48
§ 2. The neocatechumens celebrate the Sunday Eucharist in the small community after the first Vespers of Sunday. This celebration takes place according to the dispositions of the diocesan bishop. The celebrations of the Eucharist of the neocatechumenal communities on Saturday evening are part of the Sunday liturgical pastoral work of the parish and are open also to other faithful.
§ 3. For the celebration of the Eucharist in the small communities the approved liturgical
books of the Roman Rite are followed, with the exception of the explicit concessions from theHoly See.49 Regarding the distribution of Holy Communion under the two species, the
neocatechumens receive it standing, remaining at their place.
§ 4. The celebration of the Eucharist in the small community is prepared under the guidance of the presbyter, by a group of the neocatechumenal community, in turn, which prepares brief monitions to the readings, chooses the songs, provides the bread, the wine, the flowers, and takes care of the decorum and dignity of the liturgical signs.

47 JOHN PAUL II, Letter, Ogniqualvolta, August 30, 1990: AAS 82 (1990) 1515: “It is the announcement of the Gospel, the testimony in small communities and the celebration of the Eucharist in groups (see “Notification on celebrations in groups of the Neocatechumenal Way,” L’Osservatore Romano, December 24, 1988) which empower the members to place themselves at the service of the Church’s renewal”; IDEM., Discourse to 350 itinerant catechists of the Neocatechumenal Way, in L’Osservatore Romano, January 18, 1994: “All of this is actuated in small communities in which ‘reflection on the Word of God and participation in the Eucharist … form living cells in the Church, renew the vitality of the Parish through mature Christians capable of witnessing to the truth with a faith which is radically lived’ (Message to the Bishops of Europe gathered in Vienna, April 12, 1993).”
48 See RCIA, 36 [corresponds to 217 of the 1988 US edition] and RCIA, 368 [corresponds to 243 of the 1988 US edition].
49 See Benedict XVI, Speech to the Neocatechumenal Communities on January 12, 2006, in Notitiae 41 (2005), 554–556; CONGREGATION FOR DIVINE WORSHIP, Letter of December 1, 2005 in Notitiae 41 (2005), 563–565; “Notification of the Congregation for Divine Worship on celebrations in groups of the Neocatechumenal Way,” L’Osservatore Romano, December 24, 1988: “The Congregation consents that among the adaptations foreseen by the instruction “Actio Pastoralis”, nn. 6-11, the groups of the above-mentioned “Way” may receive communion under two species, always with unleavened bread, and transfer “ad experimentum” the Rite of Peace to after the Prayer of the Faithful.”

the decree of approval is found on scribd.com/doc/54149084/pontificium-consilium-pro-laicis

There are no different liturgical books to be approved. Once this was signed [the neocatechumenal] was permitted to do those following acts.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Now a second issue that has propped up is that of the liturgy. I would like to apologize in advance to youngtradcath but he is mistaken when he says

Another relief that nothing further liturgically-wise has been conceded:

Do understand that the context of YoungTradCath’s statement was to reassure Oneofthewomen’s concern over the approval of the NCW’s catechesis. I believe he is still correct in saying that nothing further liturgically-wise was conceded.

As you and I have noted, only two exceptions were given (of which one has already been possible even without the NCW). These concessions are relatively insignificant as compared to the larger liturgical abuses that they have been accused with (whether rightfully or wrongfully), hence YoungTradCath is rightly relieved that the latter were not permitted. Like all of us, he is concerned about these liturgical practices possibly being given the green light. Thankfully, the Magisterium has prevailed over political pressures.

I believe we are all on the same page. Let’s not split hairs over this.

On a side note, it is indeed notable that in the Holy Father’s audience with the NCW, he spoke at length about the importance of correct liturgy in bringing us close to God. Why would he do that if the catechesis was the only thing on the table, hm?

 

[YoungTradCath]

From my experience these things never get off the ground without the involvement of the priest. Who approached who first is, i think, in the end irrelevant because if they are actively going further then the pastor of the parish must have shown some interest in the presence of the community. Since, as you said, the pastor of your parish and that of a neighboring parish are friends then it is possible that one had a positive experience and thought to share with his friend. If the pastor had said no then the catechesis would not happen. This is because usually there is a significant amount of involvement required from the pastor and the group responsible for that catechesis should think twice about beginning even with a hesitant pastor. I think that it would be a good idea to ask him why.

Now a second issue that has propped up is that of the liturgy. I would like to apologize in advance to youngtradcath but he is mistaken when he says

To prove so i will post the two recent posts i made recently on a recent topic. Bear with me as it is lengthy.

The 2008 statute was approved in 2008. The thing that they just got approval for wasn’t that, which was already approved, but it is their catechetical program. We already know they do have a few concessions from the Holy See, which were given in 2008, but nothing else liturgically-speaking has been conceded. The only thing that was approved just this month was their catechesis.

 

[Itari]

I won’t be continuing on this topic in this thread, i don’t want to derail it into a liturgical argument. The other running topic is found on forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8880760.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I won’t be continuing on this topic in this thread, i don’t want to derail it into a liturgical argument. The other running topic is found on forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=8880760.

There is no argument here. We agree (I think). You are talking about the 2008 statutes which, yes, have been approved for three years now. We are talking about the 2012 approval. The 2008 statutes were about, among many other things, the liturgy. The 2012 approval was for the “catechetical directory,” which has nothing to do with the liturgy. This whole thread and some others was about some of us on here being afraid that this 2012 approval granted further concessions to their liturgies. We are not, in any way, talking about the 2008 statutes. We are discussing this new, 2012 approval. And we are now relieved that no more concessions were granted in this new 2012 approval. We already know what was conceded in 2008, which isn’t what these recent NeoCat threads are about.

 

[Itari]

While writing i was thinking about the relation between the RCIA and the way. Being a catechist in the parish for the RCIA (Non Neocatechumenal Way lead) i find it difficult to leave a lasting effect on the catechumens that doesnt reek of moralistic and natural religiosity, which in the end only serves to frustrate the weaker people. But i understand why it is difficult, the RCIA tends to deal on a very superficial level and (in my parish) lasts only two years. Not nearly enough time to pull someone off the street and have them understand what is going on. You cant give a completle pagan 30 odd lessons a cross and send them on their way. To even understand the sacrament of baptism is much more difficult. Speaking with an orthodox jewish friend i was being told that the process of conversion into an orthodox community is extremely rigorous (i’m not talking about celebrity s either), a process that must penetrate every part of ones being. The same must be christian formation. If salvation has come to man through christ and it goes to the world through the church then there has to be a way to give life. No non baptized wants to become catholic to pay the tithe, they want to because there is a chance to start living eternal life on earth. Where being faced with the cross we don’t shrink away.

Perhaps your pastor wanted something to reach the far away, or to provide an opportunity to find a maturation of faith. Whatever it is, i would trust the discernment given him in completing his office.

 

[Bookcat]

Really? You know that for sure? Positively?

Yes. It is in their nature…just read their documents.

Just cause some of the persons there do not know of the invite…does not mean that it does not exist. They are not going to just show up --it is contrary to the very way they do things.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Yes. It is in their nature…just read their documents.

Just cause some of the persons there do not know of the invite…does not mean that it does not exist. They are not going to just show up --it is contrary to the very way they do things.

Thanks but I think I will ask my priest all the same. We have had other instances where they asked and were allowed. People have not always been invited. Interesting to think you know more then I do about my own parish… Seeing as several administrators and people on the pastorial council know nothing about it… Our priest is not the type to leave everyone in the dark like this…

But you know better

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

While writing i was thinking about the relation between the RCIA and the way. Being a catechist in the parish for the RCIA (Non Neocatechumenal Way lead) i find it difficult to leave a lasting effect on the catechumens that doesnt reek of moralistic and natural religiosity, which in the end only serves to frustrate the weaker people. But i understand why it is difficult, the RCIA tends to deal on a very superficial level and (in my parish) lasts only two years. Not nearly enough time to pull someone off the street and have them understand what is going on. You cant give a completle pagan 30 odd lessons a cross and send them on their way. To even understand the sacrament of baptism is much more difficult. Speaking with an orthodox jewish friend i was being told that the process of conversion into an orthodox community is extremely rigorous (i’m not talking about celebrity s either), a process that must penetrate every part of ones being. The same must be christian formation. If salvation has come to man through christ and it goes to the world through the church then there has to be a way to give life. No non baptized wants to become catholic to pay the tithe, they want to because there is a chance to start living eternal life on earth. Where being faced with the cross we don’t shrink away.

Perhaps your pastor wanted something to reach the far away, or to provide an opportunity to find a maturation of faith. Whatever it is, i would trust the discernment given him in completing his office.

That’s just it…even our RCIA adult Ed director doesn’t want them to speak to them…and she leans pretty liberal… And she didn’t invite them.

Its was not on his visioning list from a month ago…we are having apologetics classes running right now…hmmm. Like I said…I will ask him when we have hm for dinner…I would trust his discernment provided it was his discernment and not something just slipped in…he is a VERY busy priest…he can’t cover everything.

 

[Bookcat]

Thanks but I think I will ask my priest all the same. We have had other instances where they asked and were allowed. People have not always been invited. Interesting to think you know more then I do about my own parish… Seeing as several administrators and people on the pastorial council know nothing about it… Our priest is not the type to leave everyone in the dark like this…

But you know better

I am speaking of such from reading info from them. Their Statutes etc…they will not come unless invited. They do not just arrive…

It is not even possible for them to “come to your parish”* practically* without the Pastors approve…it is a very involved thing from what I read.

It would be like someone moving into my home and teaching my son 8 hours a day without my knowing it or permitting it…

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I am speaking of such from reading info from them. Their Statutes etc…they will not come unless invited. They do not just arrive…

It is not even possible for them to “come to your parish”* practically* without the Pastors approve…it is a very involved thing from what I read.

It would be like someone moving into my home and teaching my son 8 hours a day without my knowing it or permitting it…

Really? Whatever! I will talk to my priest instead of taking your word for it. cause mistakes never happen you know…the priest thinks so and so invited them…he’s busy…so and so thinks the priest invited them… So excuse me if I don’t take your word for it…

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Really? Whatever! **I will talk to my priest **instead of taking your word for it. cause mistakes never happen you know…the priest thinks so and so invited them…he’s busy…so and so thinks the priest invited them… So excuse me if I don’t take your word for it…

Speaking to your priest should be your first move. I thought you had already asked him, but please do let us know what he says and how this works out for your parish. It could potentially be very positive. I will be praying for a good outcome.

 

[Bookcat]

Really? Whatever! I will talk to my priest instead of taking your word for it. cause mistakes never happen

Yes really.

Once you understand what the nature of what they do and who they are (how very involved it is various stages etc…it is not just some study group or some prayer group) you will understand what I mean.

From reading their Statutes and interviews with their leaders…it is a very involved thing.

But of course speak with your Priest by all means

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Speaking to your priest should be your first move. I thought you had already asked him, but please do let us know what he says and how this works out for your parish. It could potentially be very positive. I will be praying for a good outcome.

He has been way too busy for anyone to have time…we have a parish of about 1,400 families…and one poor priest…the poor guy gets hardly any rest.

 

[YoungTradCath]

He has been way too busy for anyone to have time…we have a parish of about 1,400 families…and one poor priest…the poor guy gets hardly any rest.

-_-… We have like 400 families and, I kid you not, five priests. Granted, we are served by the Redemptorist Fathers who always live in community and never alone, but I do feel sorry for parishes such as yours.

 

[dochawk]

B) They suggested that we keep repeating “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me” like it was a mantra. For example, in the car all the way to work. Now I can see praying the Rosary while driving to work, but repeating a single phrase for maybe hundreds of times personally just didn’t feel right when it came to my prayer life.

This is, however, a quite orthodox and mainstream eastern prayer, often prayed with a chotki (eastern prayer beads, typically in multiples of 33).

It tends to be some variation of, “[Lord] Jesus [Christ]’ son of [the ever-living] God, have mercy on me , a sinner].”

and yes,it is repeated a great many times.

hawk