Neo-Catechumenal Way

[triumphguy]

We are the Catholic Church, not the Narrow Church.

If the Holy See says that the Neo-Catechumenal Way is “kosher” then they are.
And being in union with the Church I am sure that if the liturgy needs to be amended I am sure the NCW will amend it.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

We are the Catholic Church, not the Narrow Church.

If the Holy See says that the Neo-Catechumenal Way is “kosher” then they are.
And being in union with the Church I am sure that if the liturgy needs to be amended I am sure the NCW will amend it.

I don’t think its being narrow by being cautious. I just wonder why all the secrecy? It seems like you are a part of that group and can find out…or you are not and are left in the dark. That does seem very cliquish and devisive to me…

 

[tafan]

I don’t think its being narrow by being cautious. I just wonder why all the secrecy? It seems like you are a part of that group and can find out…or you are not and are left in the dark. That does seem very cliquish and devisive to me…

I might be wrong, but I do not detect any strange degree of secrecy on the part of the NCW. Nothing really abnormal about that at all, IMO. Not at all compared to the cursillo for example.
No, from what I can tell, the main negative is the liturgical practices.

 

[Corki]

I might be wrong, but I do not detect any strange degree of secrecy on the part of the NCW. Nothing really abnormal about that at all, IMO. Not at all compared to the cursillo for example.
No, from what I can tell, the main negative is the liturgical practices.

I think a lot of people have a knee-jerk reaction to the liturgical practices, especially having Mass on Saturdays instead of Sundays. I know I do. Sunday is the day set aside since the days of the Apostles for “the breaking of the bread”. But besides that, unless the members of NCW also attend Mass on Sundays, it can’t help but create a divide. Some divides are unavoidable - for example we have a clear divide in our parish between those who attend Mass in English and those who attend Mass in Spanish because we hardly see each other. But the “bad” result of not seeing each other is a side effect of the ‘good’ act of offering Mass in the vernacular of more people. What is the “good” **for the parish **of the separation of the NCW to Saturday Mass instead of Sunday?

 

[Dirt]

I apologize for having misread your comments. I don’t understand in what I personalized them and given undue defense to the NCW, even less what it is that could trouble you.

If you don’t mind clarifying what you mean by differing ideologies and groups operating independent of the whole in reference to the NCW and support your statement with some sort of evidence, please do so. I am afraid, without clarification and evidence, that part of your statement remains unacceptable.

I totally agree with you on the Unity part and do not see anything in which the NCW harms that unity. On the contrary, the Holy See’s approval of the Statutes and the entire catechetical material of the NCW (full of references to the CCC, Church documents and the teaching of the Fathers) shows that the Hierarchy does not find either that it goes against the unity of the Church in any way.

With all charity, i stand by my previous comments. Division within The Church is already taking a toll. In my Parish alone we have Spanish Masses, Vietnamese Masses and English Masses and many of the respective groups only come together on the Major Holy Days where each group gets part of the Mass in their respective language! We have the Cursillo movement, the Charismatic movement, the NCW movement, and many others. We have the traditionalists who only want the Tridentine Mass. We have the “spirit of Vatican II” crowd who want guitars and pop Masses. We are seeing a series of divisions within The Church reminiscent of the outfall of the Protestant Reformation and it’s disastrous results. Our Lord Prayed: " [22] And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: [John 17:22]",
and i grieve for the loss of Unity we are seeing. "[24] And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. [Mark 3:24] ".
Division is the work of the enemy. When we loose our Unity of Belief and our Unity of Worship, we open ourselves to false prophets and heretical ideas that slowly, insidiously destroy us from within.( NOT to be attributed to ANY ONE GROUP MENTIONED)
“[1] I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: [2] Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. [3] For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: [4] And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. [5] But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.[2 Timothy 4:3]”

Pope Blessed John Paul II "Christ calls all his disciples to unity. My earnest desire is to renew this call today, to propose it once more with determination, repeating what I said at the Roman Colosseum on Good Friday 1994, at the end of the meditation on the Via Crucis prepared by my Venerable Brother Bartholomew, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. There I stated that believers in Christ, united in following in the footsteps of the martyrs,** cannot remain divided**. If they wish truly and effectively to oppose the world’s tendency to reduce to powerlessness the Mystery of Redemption, they must profess together the same truth about the Cross. The Cross! " Ut Unum Sint

 

[anp1215]

We are the Catholic Church, not the Narrow Church.

If the Holy See says that the Neo-Catechumenal Way is “kosher” then they are.
And being in union with the Church I am sure that if the liturgy needs to be amended I am sure the NCW will amend it.

Why do the Neocats have Mass only on Saturday nights? Just wondering. To me, that doesn’t really matter because Saturday night Mass is the same as Sunday. Just wondering if anyone knows the reasoning.

 

[ChrisRedfield47]

My parents are in the NCW. I have been invited but the parish is too far away from where I live. My parents invited me to the NCW Easter vigil this year. It lasted some 5 hours. Beginning from 12:00 AM to 5:00-5:30 or so.

Firstly they have the support of the Holy Father. They do inspire many people to go to the priesthood or the convent (I know these people personally). Their songs are very powerful, all taken from scripture. My parents entered the NCW some 20 years ago, so they took me with them when I was a child. I think I learned more from the bible just by listening to their songs than from reading it (though I read it anyway). I think they are good people and I do praise many of the things they do.

When I grew up until my teens I decided I would just simply go to mass on my nearby parish on Sundays. So I stopped going to their masses, which are on Saturday night (which is really not a problem, that is counted as Sunday). I remember they received the communion seated a few years ago. Some one told me that this changed due to the fact that either a Cardinal or the Pope himself told them they should receive the Eucharist standing. Since then they do so. They did so this past Easter Vigil. I personally don’t think their liturgy is an aberration like some people say in these forums. In anycase if the Holy See tells them to correct something, they will just do so. Their leaders all have good relationships with the Vatican.

Its not a group I’m interested in joining at this time, perhaps because I like going much to my local parish with some friends I have there. Though I must say that Jesus saved my parent’s matrimony using the NCW. Ive heard it has healed many others also.

All this is just my personal experience in close contact with the NCW.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I might be wrong, but I do not detect any strange degree of secrecy on the part of the NCW. Nothing really abnormal about that at all, IMO. Not at all compared to the cursillo for example.
No, from what I can tell, the main negative is the liturgical practices.

I’m not talking like cloak and dager stuff…it’s just that if you ask about it…you don’t really get an answer. like…"what do you teach?’’…all you get is a come to our class for two hours twice a week and you’ll see… Well, why the secrecy? I’ve got to come to your class? I can’t even ask you some pointed questions to see if I want to come to your class? And when you ask around about them…it’s all very…well I don’t really know…like you have to be an insider to find out what they are teaching? Why can’t they be above board? What is there to hide? At least that is what I’ve experienced…

 

[nagyszakall]

Division within The Church is already taking a toll. In my Parish alone we have Spanish Masses, Vietnamese Masses and English Masses and many of the respective groups only come together on the Major Holy Days where each group gets part of the Mass in their respective language! We have the Cursillo movement, the Charismatic movement, the NCW movement, and many others. We have the traditionalists who only want the Tridentine Mass. We have the “spirit of Vatican II” crowd who want guitars and pop Masses.

Division in the Church is lamentable indeed. However, it does not come from having Masses in different languages, or in different (approved) forms. Near my parish there is a Byzantine rite church with a quite different liturgy from our Roman Rite, yet we are in communion because we share the same faith and doctrine whose guarantor is the vicar of Christ. I think you are totally mistaken in thinking that having a Vietnamese and/or a Spanish Mass in your parish is a cause of division in itself (granted that the liturgical norms are followed and the preaching is faithful in doctrine).

Just let me give you an example of a source of true division: Catholics (including clergy) not accepting the teaching of Humanae Vitae in theory or in practice (this amounts to most US Catholics).

 

[nagyszakall]

I’m not talking like cloak and dager stuff…it’s just that if you ask about it…you don’t really get an answer. like…"what do you teach?’’…all you get is a come to our class for two hours twice a week and you’ll see… Well, why the secrecy? I’ve got to come to your class? I can’t even ask you some pointed questions to see if I want to come to your class? And when you ask around about them…it’s all very…well I don’t really know…like you have to be an insider to find out what they are teaching? Why can’t they be above board? What is there to hide? At least that is what I’ve experienced…

It’s like if I ask you, “What is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church?” Wouldn’t you be right in telling me, “Well, read it.”? I wouldn’t call that secrecy at all.

The material of the catecheses of the NCW have never been published because they are in spoken form, like “lectures” if you want to call them that. We usually call them catecheses. They have been transcribed for the Holy See to examine them, which was done by five dicasteries (and they approved them), but they are not given even to the catechists of the NCW before they listen to them a couple of times, because that is what their nature is, they are spoken catecheses, to be listened to. But they are no secret: everyone is welcome to listen to them without being obliged to commit to attending or anything like this.
On the other hand, if you don’t have time, or don’t want to attend, and want to have an idea in a nutshell, it is pretty well laid out in the Statutes, which is published in print and on the Internet.
camminoneocatecumenale.it/public/file/en_Statute2008.pdf
The “Initial Catecheses” to which they invited you is described in its 3 parts in article 9.

 

[nagyszakall]

Why do the Neocats have Mass only on Saturday nights? Just wondering. To me, that doesn’t really matter because Saturday night Mass is the same as Sunday. Just wondering if anyone knows the reasoning.

The time after the first vespers of Sunday (which is called Saturday night in our modern calendar, but for the Church it really is Sunday) is given preference because of the help it provides the youth, many of whom otherwise would go to parties and end up in near occasion of sin; also, it leaves Sunday morning for the families to have a “domestic celebration” when they pray Sunday Lauds from the LOTH with their children. The latter is something which has contributed to the reason why the John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family has honored the initiator of the NCW with a doctorate honoris causa. zenit.org/article-25831?l=english

It is, however, not true, like many might think (at least that’s what is apparent from the comments), that neocatechumens have an aversion to Sunday Mass, or that Sunday morning-midday-afternoon celebration of the Mass is totally excluded. Indeed, on several occasion, the communities do celebrate the Dominical Liturgy at a time other than on the night after the first vespers.

 

[maryjk]

It’s like if I ask you, “What is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church?” Wouldn’t you be right in telling me, “Well, read it.”? I wouldn’t call that secrecy at all.

The CCC is a book that can be purchased at a bookstore or read on line.

The material of the catecheses of the NCW have never been published because they are in spoken form, like “lectures” if you want to call them that. We usually call them catecheses. They have been transcribed for the Holy See to examine them, which was done by five dicasteries (and they approved them), but they are not given even to the catechists of the NCW before they listen to them a couple of times, because that is what their nature is, they are spoken catecheses, to be listened to. But they are no secret: everyone is welcome to listen to them without being obliged to commit to attending or anything like this.

Are they available on tape? Or CD? That way someone could not commit to attending, but still hear the message?

On the other hand, if you don’t have time, or don’t want to attend, and want to have an idea in a nutshell, it is pretty well laid out in the Statutes, which is published in print and on the Internet.
camminoneocatecumenale.it/public/file/en_Statute2008.pdf
The “Initial Catecheses” to which they invited you is described in its 3 parts in article 9.

Thank you for this information. I will check it out.

 

[nagyszakall]

I think a lot of people have a knee-jerk reaction to the liturgical practices, especially having Mass on Saturdays instead of Sundays. I know I do. Sunday is the day set aside since the days of the Apostles for “the breaking of the bread”. But besides that, unless the members of NCW also attend Mass on Sundays, it can’t help but create a divide. Some divides are unavoidable - for example we have a clear divide in our parish between those who attend Mass in English and those who attend Mass in Spanish because we hardly see each other. But the “bad” result of not seeing each other is a side effect of the ‘good’ act of offering Mass in the vernacular of more people. What is the “good” **for the parish **of the separation of the NCW to Saturday Mass instead of Sunday?

I don’t agree with the “bad” you refer to. You don’t see the Catholics of, let’s say, the Congo, yet we are in communion with them. On the other hand, one can see a fellow quite often and not be in communion with that person at all. Someone could be sitting next to you in the pew, and you don’t even know him, even less have an idea what struggles and sufferings he has.
The **good **is that people who haven’t attended mass at all, or very infrequently (which is about 70% of the neocatechumens worldwide) are now attending and discovering the richness of the Catholic faith. It is like to have an “intensive care unit” in a hospital where you can take those who are most hurt. Many of the others, who begin the NCW having been regular church goers, also continue to go to the Mass they have usually been attending before (be it the 9 or the 11 o’clock Mass, or whichever – I know a good number of people like that). This usually goes unnoticed by those who are quick to accuse the neocatechumenal community as a whole for being “apart”. To be just, you would have to judge case by case, as the Neocatechumenal Way does not mandate anyone to attend or not to attend a particular Mass, but helps people to reflect on their lives in the light of the Word of God.

 

[Dirt]

It’s like if I ask you, “What is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church?” Wouldn’t you be right in telling me, “Well, read it.”? I wouldn’t call that secrecy at all.

The material of the catecheses of the NCW have never been published because they are in spoken form, like “lectures” if you want to call them that. We usually call them catecheses. They have been transcribed for the Holy See to examine them, which was done by five dicasteries (and they approved them), but they are not given even to the catechists of the NCW before they listen to them a couple of times, because that is what their nature is, they are spoken catecheses, to be listened to. But they are no secret: everyone is welcome to listen to them without being obliged to commit to attending or anything like this.
On the other hand, if you don’t have time, or don’t want to attend, and want to have an idea in a nutshell, it is pretty well laid out in the Statutes, which is published in print and on the Internet.
camminoneocatecumenale.it/public/file/en_Statute2008.pdf
The “Initial Catecheses” to which they invited you is described in its 3 parts in article 9.

The Catechism of the Church ( in numerous forms), along with thousands upon thousands of teachings, Homilies and other documents are available to the Faithful from many outlets. But you tell me that because the Catechesis is delivered verbally, that is why an individual cannot find it in print? Please!!!
And as to the Statutes of the NCW, they were written to fulfill the Letter of the requirements quite well. Very legal. Does not say much, but very legal.

I still maintain that this function, Catechesis, performed under the auspices of the NCW, should remain with the Church in Her entirety. Not by a sub-divided group, developing it’s own followers.
I am done. I have stated my opinions. we shall agree to disagree Nagy. Pax

 

[tafan]

With all charity, i stand by my previous comments. Division within The Church is already taking a toll. In my Parish alone we have Spanish Masses, Vietnamese Masses and English Masses and many of the respective groups only come together on the Major Holy Days where each group gets part of the Mass in their respective language!

This is not a sign of disunity. These masses all have the same rite. For better or for worse, the Church has decided that mass in the venacular is what the modern world needs. Yes, maybe everything in Latin would add to a feeling of unity; but that, IMO, would be one of the lesser reasons supporting a return to more latin in our liturgy.

We have the Cursillo movement, the Charismatic movement, the NCW movement, and many others. We have the traditionalists who only want the Tridentine Mass. We have the “spirit of Vatican II” crowd who want guitars and pop Masses. We are seeing a series of divisions within The Church reminiscent of the outfall of the Protestant Reformation and it’s disastrous results.

You are really mixing apples to oranges, IMO. Yes, different people who want masses celebrated in radically different ways contibute to disunity. Bit, the different movements in the Church to foster greater spirituality and calls to holiness (eg. Cursillo, NCW, charismatic, various lay third orders, Opus Dei, etc, etc, etc) do NOT contribute to disunity. Quite the opposite, the Church recognizes the need for different devotions, different approaches needed by different people. This is a strength of our Church. We are not all robots. We are both indivuduals and a community.

 

[tafan]

The Catechism of the Church ( in numerous forms), along with thousands upon thousands of teachings, Homilies and other documents are available to the Faithful from many outlets. But you tell me that because the Catechesis is delivered verbally, that is why an individual cannot find it in print? Please!!!
And as to the Statutes of the NCW, they were written to fulfill the Letter of the requirements quite well. Very legal. Does not say much, but very legal.

I still maintain that this function, Catechesis, performed under the auspices of the NCW, should remain with the Church in Her entirety. Not by a sub-divided group, developing it’s own followers.
I am done. I have stated my opinions. we shall agree to disagree Nagy. Pax

But there are many movements and orders in the Church which have their own unique approach to formation. It has always been this way. I can assure you the Jesuits approach things differently than the Dominicans, than the Fransiscans.
The difference today is that there are many such opportunities for the laity, not just for the religious. But this is not as new as we tend to think. Many of these groups came into existence quite a while ago. The Secular Fransican Order is an example which has centuries of existence. Opus Dei came into existence in the 1930s (well before Vatican II). Third order of Carmelites, the Domincan Third Order also have been around since the middle ages.

There are valid complaints, IMO, about the NCW’sapproach to liturgy; but to not condemn them for a specific approach to catechisis and formation. That is part of the Catholic Church’s heritage and strength.

 

[Corki]

I don’t agree with the “bad” you refer to. You don’t see the Catholics of, let’s say, the Congo, yet we are in communion with them. On the other hand, one can see a fellow quite often and not be in communion with that person at all. Someone could be sitting next to you in the pew, and you don’t even know him, even less have an idea what struggles and sufferings he has.
The **good **is that people who haven’t attended mass at all, or very infrequently (which is about 70% of the neocatechumens worldwide) are now attending and discovering the richness of the Catholic faith. It is like to have an “intensive care unit” in a hospital where you can take those who are most hurt. Many of the others, who begin the NCW having been regular church goers, also continue to go to the Mass they have usually been attending before (be it the 9 or the 11 o’clock Mass, or whichever – I know a good number of people like that). This usually goes unnoticed by those who are quick to accuse the neocatechumenal community as a whole for being “apart”. To be just, you would have to judge case by case, as the Neocatechumenal Way does not mandate anyone to attend or not to attend a particular Mass, but helps people to reflect on their lives in the light of the Word of God.

The Catholics in the Congo aren’t in my parish. We have three Masses every Sunday and there are certainly people who are tied to thier Mass. But we are all together for Holy Days, for occassions such as Easter Vigil and Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve. The kids all do CCE together as well as all their Sacrament prep. We have fellowship between Masses and a lot of the “work” of the community happens during that time such as finding out who is sick and needs meals brought in, rounding up volunteers to send food for a funeral, recruiting CCE teachers, etc. If we had a significant number of parishioners who went to Mass on a different day and who were segregated out of our CCE and adult religious ed programs, we would be a much weaker community.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

It’s like if I ask you, “What is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church?” Wouldn’t you be right in telling me, “Well, read it.”? I wouldn’t call that secrecy at all.

The material of the catecheses of the NCW have never been published because they are in spoken form, like “lectures” if you want to call them that. We usually call them catecheses. They have been transcribed for the Holy See to examine them, which was done by five dicasteries (and they approved them), but they are not given even to the catechists of the NCW before they listen to them a couple of times, because that is what their nature is, they are spoken catecheses, to be listened to. But they are no secret: everyone is welcome to listen to them without being obliged to commit to attending or anything like this.
On the other hand, if you don’t have time, or don’t want to attend, and want to have an idea in a nutshell, it is pretty well laid out in the Statutes, which is published in print and on the Internet.
camminoneocatecumenale.it/public/file/en_Statute2008.pdf
The “Initial Catecheses” to which they invited you is described in its 3 parts in article 9.

But if I were to say…what does the CC teach about…x…any priest could and would answer me without saying…“well come and see…”

If I do a search online for the CCC…I can find it…read it as I want by topic…

I can go to a bookstore and find the CCC…and read it all will.

So…yes…you will have to come and listen first…and not in writing…ya…is a little suspect and seems cloaked in secrecy to me… Even the fact that you would make someone listen first without putting in writing is suspect IMHO. What you refered me to is no different then what I found when I was trying to research them which does not REALLY telling me doctronially what they are teaching. Clear as mud… So your comparison with the catechism is not a good one at all.

 

[anp1215]

The time after the first vespers of Sunday (which is called Saturday night in our modern calendar, but for the Church it really is Sunday) is given preference because of the help it provides the youth, many of whom otherwise would go to parties and end up in near occasion of sin; also, it leaves Sunday morning for the families to have a “domestic celebration” when they pray Sunday Lauds from the LOTH with their children. The latter is something which has contributed to the reason why the John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family has honored the initiator of the NCW with a doctorate honoris causa. zenit.org/article-25831?l=english

It is, however, not true, like many might think (at least that’s what is apparent from the comments), that neocatechumens have an aversion to Sunday Mass, or that Sunday morning-midday-afternoon celebration of the Mass is totally excluded. Indeed, on several occasion, the communities do celebrate the Dominical Liturgy at a time other than on the night after the first vespers.

I see. Thanks for this answer.

 

[nagyszakall]

The Catholics in the Congo aren’t in my parish. We have three Masses every Sunday and there are certainly people who are tied to thier Mass. But we are all together for Holy Days, for occassions such as Easter Vigil and Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve. The kids all do CCE together as well as all their Sacrament prep. We have fellowship between Masses and a lot of the “work” of the community happens during that time such as finding out who is sick and needs meals brought in, rounding up volunteers to send food for a funeral, recruiting CCE teachers, etc. If we had a significant number of parishioners who went to Mass on a different day and who were segregated out of our CCE and adult religious ed programs, we would be a much weaker community.

You have a great parish. We have these things in mine too, except we call it different names. CCE for example (if I understood correctly what it means) is called catechism classes. Looks like normal parish life. I have yet to see someone who is taken away from these things (or segregated) because of attending Mass with the neocatechumenal community. You surely must have seen something like that, but I haven’t.