Neo-Pagan Apologetics

[IanCorrigan]

Interesting ancient pagans who had a living intimate unbroken working knowledge of their gods (these same gods you claim to worship) were wrong on those things… yet you, someone with only tid bits fragments of knowledge which may or probably not be true are right?

I’m confused about where I said they were wrong and we were right. They did it, and had good reasons to do it. We don’t do it, and have good reasons not to do it.

Our spirituality does not rest on the authority of the past. Our authority lies in ourselves, in our ability to make choices for our own good. We take the past as model and guide, but we are free to make new choices, without violating any rules.

There’s no reason to expect the divine, or religion, to be unchanging. All that exists, changes.

Ian

 

[davidv]

There’s no reason to expect the divine, or religion, to be unchanging. All that exists, changes.

Ian

We have an exceptionally good reason to believe our one God is unchanging: Because he said so. God became man. His name was Jesus. He said he was the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. That which is the same in the beginning and the end is unchanged.

 

[IanCorrigan]

it’s good you said they had a vast corpus of
oral literature. Because yes those people were too stupid to write.

I don’t mean to be harsh, but you appear to be too ignorant to discuss this with. When you can tell me what Pagan Caesar said about writing among the Pagan Gauls, c.100bce, you can talk with me about the subject.

**Yes Christianity did bring violence to the streets of roman provinces, but unfortunatly for them it was brought down onto them by the roman pagans. **

Again, this is just nonsense. Christian sects rioted against one another in the streets of Roman Egypt and other places. Mobs of Christians would attack Pagan temples and libraries, dragging the learned people into the streets and killing them. (think St Martin) One of the main reasons Constantine called the Nicean council was to try to stop inter-christian violence in the empire.

The claim that early Christian civilization was any advance at all, socially or morally, from that of the Pagans just doesn’t hold any water. We can measure out foolishness for foolishness among Pagan and Christian partisans in those days, and do nothing to advance the discussion of ideas. Unless Latin Rite has something factually-based to say on the matter, I won’t be discussing it with him.

I recommend the works of Ramsay MacMullen and Robin Fox for those who want to know what the first 600 years or so of Christianity were like.

Ian

 

[dessert]

No. Since all things have/are souls/spirits, there must surely be a spirit of cholera as surely as there is of artistic inspiration. Just as nature contains dangers, so does the divine world.

The Gods of polytheism are, generally, those spirits that have established long relationships of mutual good with humans. When we encounter new spirits, we try to approach them respectfully (even predators are best treated with respect - ask any hunter). Some such spirits will end up allies, others may have to be opposed - we must deal with such questions on a case-by-case basis.

In general, Paganism does not assume that there are ‘two sides’ in the spiritual world, at war with one another. All the world is the divine, though not all of it may be friendly to humans.
Ian

I was thinking you might like to know why I sign return from the desert!
I was born and baptized but when I became older I decided to go out and seek something more exciting and end dos and don’ts so I thought.
I sought other religions and did not find any satisfaction.
I had been wandering for 40 years in the city.
I had enough to eat and drink but was thirsty and hungry.
I was in a void like a baby in a womb but not yet born.
Dizzy and confused, clothed but cold.
There were many people around me but I was lonely and still trying to find a path.
I finnally recognized I was lost but the paths were overblown by sand by the winds and were unrecognizable.
My faith was also fading in the sun and drained by all the worship I was feeding to these gods.

I prayed without power or conviction resulting in confusion.
I was without forgiveness and seeking a release without confession as I did feel conviction.

I felt lonliness in spirit like a burnt cactus BUT a small spark remained.
I had very little moisture left in my spirit and then the drops of rain came down.
God is empoweering to the spirit that is submissive

The paths were shown back to the Lord Jesus Christ Our Father the Trinity return

 

[dessert]

Here is a prayer I wrote soon after retuning

            THE DESERT IN THE CITY

I thirst O GOD;
You gave me a drop of faith,
more than enough so I might believe

I thirst O GOD;
You gave me a drop of hope,
sufficient that I might trust your word

I thirst O GOD;
You gave me a drop of love,
so that I might receive forgiveness

I thirst O GOD;
You gave me a drop of prayer,
multiplied 70 X 7 as I was not forgotten by others

And now my cup is overwhelllmingly full of Your Grace and Mercy.

desert

 

[dessert]

I guess today is their winter solstice as there are some doings in WI We should join in prayer that they will not continue and make the wrong decisions. I just heard about some of the things going on.

I am of one faith one God one church one trinity
and one church the RCC and one pope return

 

[KarenNC]

Neat - what is Ian’s religion called and what is your religion called? How are they similar and how are they different?

Thanks.

I’ll let Ian expand on his. I describe myself as a Classical Hellenic Neopagan (how’s that for concise? ). I follow the Greek pantheon, as they have come to us through the history of Western civilization. The framework in which I do this is as part of a group called Ar nDraiocht Fein, describing itself as a Druidic group, but actually involving, as I believe Ian said, reviving the polytheistic practices of our Indo-European ancestors within a modern context rather than only Celtic ones. Not all who follow the Hellenic gods would have the same practices that I do.

We look to the best available information from modern sources about ancient practices (archaeology, anthropology, etc) to learn more about how the gods interacted with our ancestors, but personal experience is also key. I am not an ancient Athenian, I don’t live in that culture, share that worldview, etc–my experiences of the gods may well be somewhat different than that Athenian’s was. It’s somewhat akin to a modern Christian looking for the historical Jesus. The information available may be useful to you in understanding the social and political reality that shaped the direction of the early Church, but it is your relationship with God here and now, in your personal life, and in the religion as it is practiced now in our society, that is likely of primary importance to you spiritually. If the only connection that existed was academic, I doubt it would sustain you for very long.

Knowing through the stories the offerings that the gods found pleasing from our ancestors and the ways in which the gods chose to interact with them can give us a starting point to see how we might be able to develop a relationship and call upon them in our modern society. Historically, offerings (sacrifices) of food, jewelry, art, poetry, song, dance, libations of oil, wine, honey, milk were all welcomed by the gods, and are more in keeping with modern living situations, laws and mores (hard to keep a hecatomb of oxen in the usual suburban backyard–you need a heck of a pooper scooper ). The relationship to the gods is as a host to an honored guest, one who is more powerful, rather than master/slave or parent/child.

For me, the gods that call me are the Hellenic ones. For others in the organization, they may hear the call of the Celtic, Baltic, Roman, Norse, Germanic, etc. When I say sect, I mean that our pantheons are different and so we are part of a special interest group within the organization that follows the Hellenic gods. That is the source of the comment about different gods, different desires for worship.

As Ian also said, it is about orthopraxy (right action) rather than orthodoxy (right belief), so the similarities would be with ritual forms, liturgy, ethical guidelines rather than creeds–no blood sacrifice (human or animal) regardless of how one’s gods were worshipped in antiquity, no illegal substances as part of rituals, no membership in racial supremacist groups, no discrimination along racial/ethnic/national origin/gender/disability/sexual orientation lines, etc.

 

[dessert]

I’m confused about where I said they were wrong and we were right. They did it, and had good reasons to do it. We don’t do it, and have good reasons not to do it.

Our spirituality does not rest on the authority of the past. Our authority lies in ourselves, in our ability to make choices for our own good. We take the past as model and guide, but we are free to make new choices, without violating any rules.

There’s no reason to expect the divine, or religion, to be unchanging. All that exists, changes.

Ian

SOOOOOooooooo then you are claiming to be your own
gggggoooooooddd?

Any rules? Who made the rules? Do not kill! Do you claim the intelligence to make up that one or was there a higher authority whom you chose not to acknowledge afterall we did learn all those ten from a God, gave to Moses, You claim doesn’t exist ? I’ll bet you don’t cheat on your wife eitherso why did you make up this one too? return

 

[rtconstant]

If I’m understanding you correctly you and your fellows seem to be trying to do legitimate research into the old pagan-practices. With that in mind why not adopt some the still (more or less) existing beliefs like say Shinto or the Nordic tradition of Iceland/Greenland (forgive me lack of proper name there I really don’t know much about this group)?

I can understand not wanting to go with Hindu as it is unique in the “pagan” world in that it has a complete theological system like Christianity. Anyway, do you understand what I mean? Why not go with an established heathen or pagan system that has more ancient connection? I’m not trying to be critical I’m just wanting to better understand where you are coming from.

 

[dessert]

I’ll let Ian expand on his. I describe myself as a Classical Hellenic Neopagan (how’s that for concise? ). I follow the Greek pantheon, as they have come to us through the history of Western civilization. The framework in which I do this is as part of a group called Ar nDraiocht Fein, describing itself as a Druidic group, but actually involving, as I believe Ian said, reviving the polytheistic practices of our Indo-European ancestors within a modern context rather than only Celtic ones. Not all who follow the Hellenic gods would have the same practices that I do.

We look to the best available information from modern sources about ancient practices (archaeology, anthropology, etc) to learn more about how the gods interacted with our ancestors, but personal experience is also key. I am not an ancient Athenian, I don’t live in that culture, share that worldview, etc–my experiences of the gods may well be somewhat different than that Athenian’s was. It’s somewhat akin to a modern Christian looking for the historical Jesus. The information available may be useful to you in understanding the social and political reality that shaped the direction of the early Church, but it is your relationship with God here and now, in your personal life, and in the religion as it is practiced now in our society, that is likely of primary importance to you spiritually. If the only connection that existed was academic, I doubt it would sustain you for very long.

Knowing through the stories the offerings that the gods found pleasing from our ancestors and the ways in which the gods chose to interact with them can give us a starting point to see how we might be able to develop a relationship and call upon them in our modern society. Historically, offerings (sacrifices) of food, jewelry, art, poetry, song, dance, libations of oil, wine, honey, milk were all welcomed by the gods, and are more in keeping with modern living situations, laws and mores (hard to keep a hecatomb of oxen in the usual suburban backyard–you need a heck of a pooper scooper ). The relationship to the gods is as a host to an honored guest, one who is more powerful, rather than master/slave or parent/child.

For me, the gods that call me are the Hellenic ones. For others in the organization, they may hear the call of the Celtic, Baltic, Roman, Norse, Germanic, etc. When I say sect, I mean that our pantheons are different and so we are part of a special interest group within the organization that follows the Hellenic gods. That is the source of the comment about different gods, different desires for worship.

As Ian also said, it is about orthopraxy (right action) rather than orthodoxy (right belief), so the similarities would be with ritual forms, liturgy, ethical guidelines rather than creeds–no blood sacrifice (human or animal) regardless of how one’s gods were worshipped in antiquity, no illegal substances as part of rituals, no membership in racial supremacist groups, no discrimination along racial/ethnic/national origin/gender/disability/sexual orientation lines, etc.

We also speak for our ancestors and there are too many to list and the many saints and martyrs and clergy that have given their lives for the Lord Jesus Christ and oh yes the ones that were fed to the lions because of the believe of the Roman god.

We are called and we are chosen but in the name of Jesus the Christ and He recognizes our voice and knows if it ids not His voice .
Their are spirits that are discuised as an angel of light and seems so nice but is deceptive.

As you are so kind

return from the desert

The Word Became Flesh and Dwelt Among Us.
“MY SOUL MAGNIFIES THE LORD!” Luke 1;46

 

[dessert]

Ian Corrigan which of the rules ten commandments did you write? Again?

return

 

[dessert]

it’s good you said they had a vast corpus of
oral literature. Because yes those people were too stupid to write.

I don’t mean to be harsh, but you appear to be too ignorant to discuss this with. When you can tell me what Pagan Caesar said about writing among the Pagan Gauls, c.100bce, you can talk with me about the subject.

**Yes Christianity did bring violence to the streets of roman provinces, but unfortunatly for them it was brought down onto them by the roman pagans. **

Again, this is just nonsense. Christian sects rioted against one another in the streets of Roman Egypt and other places. Mobs of Christians would attack Pagan temples and libraries, dragging the learned people into the streets and killing them. (think St Martin) One of the main reasons Constantine called the Nicean council was to try to stop inter-christian violence in the empire.

The claim that early Christian civilization was any advance at all, socially or morally, from that of the Pagans just doesn’t hold any water. We can measure out foolishness for foolishness among Pagan and Christian partisans in those days, and do nothing to advance the discussion of ideas. Unless Latin Rite has something factually-based to say on the matter, I won’t be discussing it with him.

I recommend the works of Ramsay MacMullen and Robin Fox for those who want to know what the first 600 years or so of Christianity were like.

Ian

Yes many people act out of violence but Jesus did not preach this as He was the teacher and He told Peter to put uup his sword as Jesus healed people of ththeir mind body and soul and none of us are preaching violence to you so please don’t think this of us!! return

 

[KarenNC]

Any rules? Who made the rules? Do not kill! Do you claim the intelligence to make up that one or was there a higher authority whom you chose not to acknowledge afterall we did learn all those ten from a God, gave to Moses, You claim doesn’t exist ? return

The commandments given to the Jews were not unique in setting out ethical behavior. All societies have standards of ethical behavior. See the Code of Hammurabi, the Precepts of Solon, the Edicts of Ashoka, the writings of Marcus Aurelius, etc. Some of these were considered given by the gods, just as Moses claimed the Ten Commandments. The Code of Hammurabi (considered a reform of codes of law that preceded him, but have been lost) is dated at c. 1790 to 1752 BCE, wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM. He was certainly not The online Catholic encyclopedia gives the dates for Moses (and therefore the giving of the Ten Commandments) as late 13th to early 12th century BCE, several centuries after Hammurabi.

BTW, “thou shalt not kill” is actually better translated as “thou shalt not murder”–ie unlawfully take a human life. It’s an important distinction. See ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/001102_ThouShaltNotMurder.html

 

[KarenNC]

With that in mind why not adopt some the still (more or less) existing beliefs like say Shinto…Why not go with an established heathen or pagan system that has more ancient connection?

Personally, we (as in our family as individuals, not necessarily Neopagans in general or ADF, just to be clear) find a great deal of value in Shinto in showing how an ancient nature-based religion has adapted to and functions in a modern society. Our bookshelf on Shinto is quite extensive .Such studies help us “fill in the gaps” about what day to day practices could look like for a modern polytheist.’

If the question is “why this pantheon,” my answer is that it the Hellenic gods are the ones that “speak” to me, if you will–the ones which make me feel as if I am coming home when I worship them (an experience common among converts to most religions, from conversations and reading). I don’t have that connection to the Norse, Celtic, Japanese, etc pantheons.

 

[KarenNC]

Their are spirits that are discuised as an angel of light and seems so nice but is deceptive. As you are so kind

Desert, I believe you have totally misunderstood my reason for being here. It is entirely the same to me whether you remain Christian or convert to something else, Neopaganism or any other religion. Frankly, either course would only be of minor academic interest to me. Your religious path is your own concern.

I have no interest in nor desire to proselytize, nor have my gods given me any directives or incentives to do so. My purposes are to clear up misinformation and misconceptions about my religion, give further insights into why I chose it (for those that are interested and have asked) and to have a stimulating discussion of comparative theology (because I’m weird enough to think that’s fun ).

Remember that this entire discussion came about because of the posting of a “how to convert Neopagans to Catholicism” article, not because any of us came to convert anyone here. In all honesty, this discussion is primarily to your benefit, as you have a better chance to proselytize successfully if you have accurate information.

 

[latin_rite]

I don’t mean to be harsh, but you appear to be too ignorant to discuss this with. When you can tell me what Pagan Caesar said about writing among the Pagan Gauls, c.100bce, you can talk with me about the subject.

]
Caesar’s Commentarii de Bello Gallico gives the fullest account of the Druids.The Druids constituted the learned priestly class, and as guardians of the unwritten ancient customary law they had the power of executing judgments, among which exclusion from society was the most dreaded. Druids were not a hereditary caste, though they enjoyed exemption from military service as well as from payment of taxes. All instruction was communicated orally, , but for ordinary purposes, Caesar reports that the Gauls had a written language in which they used Greek characters. In this he probably draws on earlier writers; by the time of Caesar, Gaulish had moved from the Greek script to the Latin script.As a result of this prohibition — and of the decline of Gaulish in favour of Latin — no druidic documents, if there ever were any,, have survived. “The principal point of their doctrine”, Hmm so yes these people were stupid, and they had to import all knowledge even written language.

Again, this is just nonsense. Christian sects rioted against one another in the streets of Roman Egypt and other places. Mobs of Christians would attack Pagan temples and libraries, dragging the learned people into the streets and killing them. (think St Martin) One of the main reasons Constantine called the Nicean council was to try to stop inter-christian violence in the empire

.
Pay backs a B$tch isn’t it?.. O yes we Christians have fought amongst ourselves. But unlike paganisim it isn’t the basis of our religion.

The claim that early Christian civilization was any advance at all, socially or morally, from that of the Pagans just doesn’t hold any water.,

Well yes we ARE now and then more advanced than pagans. both morally and socially. We enjoy more freedoms than pagans did. and as far as morally goes. christians never have now or ever killed children or women or animals in very gruesome ways to make some fake sky daddy pagan god happy.

I recommend the works of Ramsay MacMullen and Robin Fox for those who want to know what the first 600 years or so of Christianity were like.

Ian

Well that is one advantage us true believers have over …well people like you . i don’t need to rely on people who lived 1400 yrs after the fact, Who may or most likely maynot know excatly what happened. I can go read the facts by people who were actually there.

 

[dessert]

The commandments given to the Jews were not unique in setting out ethical behavior. All societies have standards of ethical behavior. See the Code of Hammurabi, the Precepts of Solon, the Edicts of Ashoka, the writings of Marcus Aurelius, etc. Some of these were considered given by the gods, just as Moses claimed the Ten Commandments. The Code of Hammurabi (considered a reform of codes of law that preceded him, but have been lost) is dated at c. 1790 to 1752 BCE, wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM. He was certainly not The online Catholic encyclopedia gives the dates for Moses (and therefore the giving of the Ten Commandments) as late 13th to early 12th century BCE, several centuries after Hammurabi.

BTW, “thou shalt not kill” is actually better translated as “thou shalt not murder”–ie unlawfully take a human life. It’s an important distinction. See ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/001102_ThouShaltNotMurder.html

Do you think that God objected to Cain killing Abel?

 

[Contarini]

]
Caesar’s Commentarii de Bello Gallico gives the fullest account of the Druids.The Druids constituted the learned priestly class, and as guardians of the unwritten ancient customary law they had the power of executing judgments, among which exclusion from society was the most dreaded. Druids were not a hereditary caste, though they enjoyed exemption from military service as well as from payment of taxes. All instruction was communicated orally, , but for ordinary purposes, Caesar reports that the Gauls had a written language in which they used Greek characters. In this he probably draws on earlier writers; by the time of Caesar, Gaulish had moved from the Greek script to the Latin script.As a result of this prohibition — and of the decline of Gaulish in favour of Latin — no druidic documents, if there ever were any,, have survived. “The principal point of their doctrine”, Hmm so yes these people were stupid, and they had to import all knowledge even written language.

Could you explain the connection between not having a written language and being stupid?

Not all knowledge comes through written language, you know.

It’s truly strange to hear a Catholic speaking this way, given the emphasis Catholicism puts on oral tradition.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

**Yes Christianity did bring violence to the streets of roman provinces, but unfortunatly for them it was brought down onto them by the roman pagans. **

Again, this is just nonsense. Christian sects rioted against one another in the streets of Roman Egypt and other places. Mobs of Christians would attack Pagan temples and libraries, dragging the learned people into the streets and killing them. (think St Martin)

I have yet to hear that St. Martin killed anyone. But if you want to bring up Hypatia, that’s certainly fair game.

One of the main reasons Constantine called the Nicean council was to try to stop inter-christian violence in the empire.

Maybe overstated, but there’s some truth to that, certainly.

The claim that early Christian civilization was any advance at all, socially or morally, from that of the Pagans just doesn’t hold any water.

I will agree that it’s not as self-evident as Christians have historically claimed on the basis of one-sided histories. But I do think that (for instance) it’s telling that Julian explicitly imitated the Christians in establishing social welfare programs based on the pagan temples. This simply wasn’t part of paganism previously, and pagan acknowledged that it was a recruiting point for Christians. I would also argue that while early Christianity didn’t bring about a lot of positive social change legislatively speaking (indeed the Roman empire became more and more despotic during the Christian centuries, though I think this can be shown to have begun well before Constantine), the Church functioned in many ways to mitigate the harshness of ancient society–there are plenty of letters from bishops begging for the pardoning of criminals, the ransoming of slaves, etc. Furthermore–most controversially and subjectively–I’d argue that the long-term positive changes in Western society, including the abolition of slavery, greater equality for women, etc., arose from Christian principles and were unlikely to have occurred apart from Christianity. I don’t expect you to grant this, but I do think that the claim can be supported and is not simply propaganda (i.e., I can point to specific early Christian teachings that led in a direct line to the “enlightened” views of modern Western society–the counterfactual part is obviously harder to establish).

From a social and moral point of view, the main criticism of ancient classical society was its relentlessly aristocratic ethos. Christianity didn’t challenge this directly, but simply by the fact that it preached on Gospel for everyone and incorporated people of all classes into one Church, it made it impossible for the elites to write common people off as they had done previously.

Finally, speaking of Ramsay MacMullen, doesn’t his account of how ancient people converted to Christianity essentially follow your own pragmatic principles? According to MacMullen, ancient Greco-Romans discovered practically that Christianity worked–that the Christian deity answered them in ways pagan deities didn’t. How would you account for this?

Edwin

 

[Dawnpiper]

And you do realise that the trojan war and Oresteia are both just myths… You do realize this don’t you?

Of course… although since Schliemann made his discoveries, it’s not always as easy to tell where myth ends and history begins. But that’s actually irrelevant to the point that I was making, which is that I have a clear, unambiguous, pagan religious basis for opposing human sacrifice. It’s not just that the sacrifice was “not accepted”, it is actively condemned as a moral outrage and a grave impiety.